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Shootist357
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54 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Had a hell of a day... went to replace chain and sprockets and only had 112 link chains on the shelf... so I gotta order a new 114+.... no big deal.

Decided to pull the old chain off and cannot find my old breaker/riveter anywhere... I think it was a stockton, not really sure...

Do you guys have any insight into a quality proven breaker/riveter?

Mike

(P.S. found my ancient dirt bike Motion pro folding trail breaker and used it to push the rivets out!)
 

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919 Rider
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2,679 Posts
Some 919s will take a 112 link chain. If you haven’t done so already might pay to check to see if it fits before ordering a 114.
 

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Wanna free cat?
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508 Posts
I'm currently running an EK 530 ZVX3 chain with 17/42 sprockets and 112 links fit just fine (snug). The DID KM 500R tool has been working well. Found it on Amazon a few years ago for $80.
BEWARE of counterfeits, because the first one I received looked like it had been made by blind pre-schoolers.(really)
No matter what tool you use, you know you're gonna have to grind the rivets before pushing them through or run the risk of breaking the mandrel on the tool. Been running clip-type master links for many years, but the last chain/sprocket change I used an EK screw-type master link.

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forum...or-your-bike-today-24834-240.html#post1368901
In the above post, I said 17/43, but I've been 17/42 from day one.
LDH has the 17 tooth counter sprockets, but had to outsource the 42T.
 

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Shootist357
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54 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Problem is I decided to finally go to 17/44, and even though you can actually get a 112 chain on the bike, it is like a banjo string with the adjusters all the way in... :)


So 114 it is... I was looking around the web last night and the Motion Pro PBR gets good reviews. I'm a firm believer in do it yourself (within limits), and buying quality tools. Good tools pay for themselves over the years.
 

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Registered
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226 Posts
This is a theory, noted in other threads.

The old rule of thumb for gearsets is that two meshing gears should not have the same tooth count or have one evenly dividable by the other. The idea is that the constant meshing of like tooths will lead to wear whereas those not "matching" will spread the wear.

Applying the same logic to chains and sprockets, the stock 16 tooth front sprocket is dividable for a 112 link chain. That is, the same links will hit the sprocket on the same tooth all the same. 112/16=7.
 

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Super Moderator
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4,525 Posts
I sell the PBR because it is relatively cheap and it is the same tool I personally use even though I have $250+ pro chain tools here at the shop.


The irony here is I am out of stock on them currently
 

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Shootist357
Joined
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54 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I sell the PBR because it is relatively cheap and it is the same tool I personally use even though I have $250+ pro chain tools here at the shop.


The irony here is I am out of stock on them currently

Funny you mention being out of stock -- Motion Pro is out of stock on a LOT of items. Not sure if there is an inventory problem or a bigger issue at hand.
 

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Wanna free cat?
Joined
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508 Posts
This is a theory, noted in other threads.

The old rule of thumb for gearsets is that two meshing gears should not have the same tooth count or have one evenly dividable by the other. The idea is that the constant meshing of like tooths will lead to wear whereas those not "matching" will spread the wear.

Applying the same logic to chains and sprockets, the stock 16 tooth front sprocket is dividable for a 112 link chain. That is, the same links will hit the sprocket on the same tooth all the same. 112/16=7.

112/17=6.588
112/42=2.666
Am I good to go? Most math requires the removal of my shoes and socks
 

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McTavish
Joined
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6,226 Posts
This is a theory, noted in other threads.

The old rule of thumb for gearsets is that two meshing gears should not have the same tooth count or have one evenly dividable by the other. The idea is that the constant meshing of like tooths will lead to wear whereas those not "matching" will spread the wear.

Applying the same logic to chains and sprockets, the stock 16 tooth front sprocket is dividable for a 112 link chain. That is, the same links will hit the sprocket on the same tooth all the same. 112/16=7.
I don't think the above method is valid.
Note also that the teeth of the sprockets don't directly mesh because of the chain being involved.
I found this, and it makes sense as the math takes into account the involvement of a chain.

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1046947-different-sprockets-same-ratios-benefits/page/2/
 

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Wanna free cat?
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508 Posts
rufftup is not going to like the higher math involved by the correct method.

lmao :blink:


"Ultimately, a well-maintained drive chain with a poor, hunting tooth frequency will probably last longer than a poorly maintained drive chain with a good, hunting tooth frequency. Drive chain maintenance, riding conditions, and riding style will undoubtedly affect drive chain longevity more than any theoretical, hunting tooth frequency calculations."


This part was easy to understand...
 
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McTavish
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6,226 Posts
lmao :blink:


"Ultimately, a well-maintained drive chain with a poor, hunting tooth frequency will probably last longer than a poorly maintained drive chain with a good, hunting tooth frequency. Drive chain maintenance, riding conditions, and riding style will undoubtedly affect drive chain longevity more than any theoretical, hunting tooth frequency calculations."


This part was easy to understand...
The salient point, indeed!
 

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Wanna free cat?
Joined
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508 Posts
Anyhoo, about chain tools. I like the DID KM500R because it fits in a Klein 5139 tool bag along with the other 7 pounds of tools which tag along on road trips.


https://didchain.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/DID-Chain-Tool-Inst_150.pdf
DID doesn't mention grinding the pins, but I'd forego that step only in a pinch.


It requires the use of 19mm and 27mm wrenches. Conveniently, for the 919 toolkit, the 19mm also fits the final drive sprocket nuts and the 27mm fits the rear axle nut.






I did not receive monetary compensation for this endorsement
 

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Shootist357
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54 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I ended up ordering a Motion Pro PBR--price was right and they get great reviews. You only need to use it a few times for it to pay for itself.
 

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Wanna free cat?
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508 Posts
Having the right tools! Carry enough for everyone. :thumbup1:
 

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Registered
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226 Posts
I don't think the above method is valid.
Note also that the teeth of the sprockets don't directly mesh because of the chain being involved.
I found this, and it makes sense as the math takes into account the involvement of a chain.

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1046947-different-sprockets-same-ratios-benefits/page/2/
Interesting article. He much more eloquently, and thoroughly explained what I was trying to get at. Using the article as a guide, using 112 links and a 16 tooth sprocket (stock), it comes out like this.

The countershaft sprocket has 16, or (1*16) teeth. The drive chain has 112, or (7*16) links. The largest common factor for these two gears is 16, which is the common frequency. The gear mesh frequency of the counter shaft sprocket is 2,100 rpm x 16 teeth.

Hunting tooth frequency = [(gear mesh frequency) times (common frequency)] divided by [(#sprocket teeth) times (#chain links)]

Therefore, the C/S hunting tooth frequency is [(2,100 rpm x 16 teeth) times (16)] divided by [(16) times (112)] = 300 cycles per minute

Anybody feel free to check my math!

The article's worst case 38.2 and, having the countershaft sprocket and number of links equally divisible, we're way over that. I honestly think this is why Honda went with 114 teeth when, as we've found, 112 will work fine with stock gearing.

(The article went on to talk about smaller radius sprockets causing increased wear which I theorized about on another thread a long time ago. )

Paging robtharalson!!!
 

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McTavish
Joined
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6,226 Posts
Interesting article. He much more eloquently, and thoroughly explained what I was trying to get at. Using the article as a guide, using 112 links and a 16 tooth sprocket (stock), it comes out like this.

The countershaft sprocket has 16, or (1*16) teeth. The drive chain has 112, or (7*16) links. The largest common factor for these two gears is 16, which is the common frequency. The gear mesh frequency of the counter shaft sprocket is 2,100 rpm x 16 teeth.

Hunting tooth frequency = [(gear mesh frequency) times (common frequency)] divided by [(#sprocket teeth) times (#chain links)]

Therefore, the C/S hunting tooth frequency is [(2,100 rpm x 16 teeth) times (16)] divided by [(16) times (112)] = 300 cycles per minute

Anybody feel free to check my math!

The article's worst case 38.2 and, having the countershaft sprocket and number of links equally divisible, we're way over that. I honestly think this is why Honda went with 114 teeth when, as we've found, 112 will work fine with stock gearing.

(The article went on to talk about smaller radius sprockets causing increased wear which I theorized about on another thread a long time ago. )

Paging robtharalson!!!
RE: (The article went on to talk about smaller radius sprockets causing increased wear which I theorized about on another thread a long time ago. )

Correct, they do. The number of engaged teeth is reduced with smaller sprockets, while the load is constant.
 
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