Why does the 919 run so rich?? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 27 Old 05-11-2012, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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Why does the 919 run so rich??

For a fuel injected bike, it sure runs rich. I stink like rich exhaust fumes after getting off the bike, and I think the smell is coming up under my helmet too. I have stock pipes with the baffles in file 13. Is there a way to lean this beast out?

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post #2 of 27 Old 05-11-2012, 08:57 PM
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post #3 of 27 Old 05-11-2012, 09:14 PM
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post #4 of 27 Old 05-11-2012, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bkwildman View Post
For a fuel injected bike, it sure runs rich. I stink like rich exhaust fumes after getting off the bike, and I think the smell is coming up under my helmet too. I have stock pipes with the baffles in file 13. Is there a way to lean this beast out?
It runs rich because it doesn't have an oxygen sensor to adjust fuelling. Instead it runs off a fuel map and has no feedback loop - and when you're making a fuel map where the computer has to fire "blind" as it does here, you want to err towards being rich rather than lean. Other than added fuel consumption, running a bit rich really doesn't have much of any downside in terms of function - but running 'a little lean' can result in burned pistons and worse.

The benefit of running rich ends up being that the 919 turns out to be a bike that starts and runs in any weather condition known to exist on the surface of the earth (outside of the Arctic and Antarctic) without fail.

This isn't to say that remapping it with the PowerCommander won't resolve the rich running if you should want to. Also, there's some evidence that debaffling the stock pipes may make the stink worse.

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post #5 of 27 Old 05-11-2012, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB700S View Post
It runs rich because it doesn't have an oxygen sensor to adjust fuelling. Instead it runs off a fuel map and has no feedback loop - and when you're making a fuel map where the computer has to fire "blind" as it does here, you want to err towards being rich rather than lean. Other than added fuel consumption, running a bit rich really doesn't have much of any downside in terms of function - but running 'a little lean' can result in burned pistons and worse.

The benefit of running rich ends up being that the 919 turns out to be a bike that starts and runs in any weather condition known to exist on the surface of the earth (outside of the Arctic and Antarctic) without fail.

This isn't to say that remapping it with the PowerCommander won't resolve the rich running if you should want to. Also, there's some evidence that debaffling the stock pipes may make the stink worse.
has anyone had their 919 in those places... id bet it would start with some 0w-20 in it.

It doesnt run rich because lack of a feedback loop... it runs rich because its mapped rich from the factory plain and simple.

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post #6 of 27 Old 05-11-2012, 11:35 PM
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has anyone had their 919 in those places... id bet it would start with some 0w-20 in it.

It doesnt run rich because lack of a feedback loop... it runs rich because its mapped rich from the factory plain and simple.
Reread that last post. It is mapped rich because it doesn't have a feedback loop and it fires 'blind'. The engineers knew the bike wouldn't have a feedback loop and therefore went with a 'safe in all conditions' map, which means rich.

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post #7 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 12:02 AM
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Also, there's some evidence that debaffling the stock pipes may make the stink worse.
hmmm....

i've done the bafflectomy on the stock mufflers. i think the stink is worse now, and i'm getting a thin layer brown soot collecting on the rear end.


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900RR exhaust
hmmm again.....

i'm pretty tempted to go the route of a low-slung 900RR exhaust, but that sounds like a lot of work and most importantly, a lot of money... now, if a PCIII does indeed eliminate the stench of filthy richness, perhaps i should look into it some more...



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post #8 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 06:03 AM
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Can a faulty Fuel Pressure Regulator cause an even richer environment (for cyl 2 & 3) resulting in the stink being more drastic and even more dark soot? Not sure if that's been covered or proven on previous threads.

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post #9 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewebay1 View Post
Can a faulty Fuel Pressure Regulator cause an even richer environment (for cyl 2 & 3) resulting in the stink being more drastic and even more dark soot? Not sure if that's been covered or proven on previous threads.
It could but there would be a loss of power as well (from what I've read here).

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post #10 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 06:56 AM
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The stinkiest 919's I've ever ridden with had de-baffled stock pipes. Made me a little sick actually.
My 919 is completely stock except for a K&N and the flapper mod. I have little to no stink depending on time of year and whats at the pumps.

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post #11 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CB700S View Post
It runs rich because it doesn't have an oxygen sensor to adjust fuelling. Instead it runs off a fuel map and has no feedback loop - and when you're making a fuel map where the computer has to fire "blind" as it does here, you want to err towards being rich rather than lean. Other than added fuel consumption, running a bit rich really doesn't have much of any downside in terms of function - but running 'a little lean' can result in burned pistons and worse.

The benefit of running rich ends up being that the 919 turns out to be a bike that starts and runs in any weather condition known to exist on the surface of the earth (outside of the Arctic and Antarctic) without fail.

This isn't to say that remapping it with the PowerCommander won't resolve the rich running if you should want to. Also, there's some evidence that debaffling the stock pipes may make the stink worse.
A 919's ECU does not fire "blind' nor anything even approaching "blind". It has a baseline throttle position x rpm based co-ordinate map, then the ECU makes never ending pulse width duration adjustments in real time for air intake temp, air density, and coolant temperature. The O2 sensor is there to sniff for oxygen, the idea being to ensure that the burn is lean enough from a pollution control point of view. It will also sense unused oxygen from the PAIR injection, which is there for some post combustion polishing of the exhaust gas, in particular the conversion of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide. (CO2 is very toxic, and burns nicely in the presence of O2 and morphs to CO2). Ultimately, an O2 loop allows for finer control of fueling, as driven by pollution control considerations.

The factory baseline map is flawed to some degree, and a PCIII can do wonders to correct for that.

Last point, the air mass flow sensing is not the most sophisticated, the addition of a hot wire would help.

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post #12 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 08:07 AM
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Reread that last post. It is mapped rich because it doesn't have a feedback loop and it fires 'blind'. The engineers knew the bike wouldn't have a feedback loop and therefore went with a 'safe in all conditions' map, which means rich.
that doesnt make it run rich or a reason why they have to run it rich. Many dudes on KTM's will opt for O2 sensor eliminators to make for a better fuel mapping and easier fuel mapping.


The 919 is just mapped rich, plain and simple.... honda could of made it a little more lean but eh it does the job damn good and a lil on the rich side is MUCH better then a lil on the lean side.

With a pc3 and a dyno you can map it to be "perfect" using all the stock sensors....

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post #13 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
A 919's ECU does not fire "blind' nor anything even approaching "blind". It has a baseline throttle position x rpm based co-ordinate map, then the ECU makes never ending pulse width duration adjustments in real time for air intake temp, air density, and coolant temperature. The O2 sensor is there to sniff for oxygen, the idea being to ensure that the burn is lean enough from a pollution control point of view. It will also sense unused oxygen from the PAIR injection, which is there for some post combustion polishing of the exhaust gas, in particular the conversion of carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide. (CO2 is very toxic, and burns nicely in the presence of O2 and morphs to CO2). Ultimately, an O2 loop allows for finer control of fueling, as driven by pollution control considerations.

The factory baseline map is flawed to some degree, and a PCIII can do wonders to correct for that.

Last point, the air mass flow sensing is not the most sophisticated, the addition of a hot wire would help.
It's still firing blind with no means to determine if the fuel dictated by the map is actually correct or if it needs adjustment. The O2 sensor is not just for pollution control. If it was, systems like Wolf EMS, Electromotive or MegaSquirt (which are aftermarket EFI systems intended to be used on non-pollution controlled vehicles!) would not have a provision for an O2 sensor, but they all do. I've been working with those (specifically MegaSquirt) for the past decade or so.

(Also, how exactly does CO2 combust in the presence of O2 and somehow become CO2? I don't remember that being an option per my chemistry class.)

The stock fuel map for the 919 is essentially the sort of thing you'd start with as a baseline on a MegaSquirted vehicle; you start rich to make sure the vehicle will keep running no matter what it does and to avoid damage to the engine, then refine from there as needed. A MegaSquirted vehicle can then automatically adjust the map as needed, of course - because of the O2 sensor, if you fit one. Otherwise, it too is firing blind based off of a map - and if you're smart you'll keep that map on the rich side in that case.

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post #14 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 11:31 AM
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sounds like a movie I watched the other night...




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post #15 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 01:44 PM
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My bike is completely stock in intake-engine-exhaust, except for the addition of the PCIII.

I have never had any stink from its stock exhaust to deal with, so can't comment on how the PCIII may affect that, but I'm certainly very happy with how the throttle response has benefitted from the re-mapping capability afforded by the PCIII.

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post #16 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 02:22 PM
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Going from 93 octane down to 87 make a big difference in my sticky 919

It's still stinky but not overly sticky. with 93 I'd kick it out of bed, but 87 is doable. -_-

Wait, oh never mind.
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post #17 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 06:13 PM
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hmmm again.....

i'm pretty tempted to go the route of a low-slung 900RR exhaust, but that sounds like a lot of work and most importantly, a lot of money... now, if a PCIII does indeed eliminate the stench of filthy richness, perhaps i should look into it some more...[/QUOTE]

I think you've got they two processes reversed in terms of cost and work. The 900RR exhaust is a whole lot cheaper to do than a PCIII. And work? The most work involved is fabricating a small tab to secure the exhaust can to the rear peg mount. The last PCIII I purchased cost me $300 then another $300 for a custom map. And I got a crap map. I swear the bike ran worse, decel pop and richer = poor gas mileage. I took The PCIII off bike ran perfect. Granted there are GREAT tuners out there that will give you your money's worth on a custom map. Just not near me and it's not worth the money vs gain in my book. The 900RR set up is the ticket for the 919.

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post #18 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 06:34 PM
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I think you've got they two processes reversed in terms of cost and work. The 900RR exhaust is a whole lot cheaper to do than a PCIII. And work? The most work involved is fabricating a small tab to secure the exhaust can to the rear peg mount. The last PCIII I purchased cost me $300 then another $300 for a custom map. And I got a crap map. I swear the bike ran worse, decel pop and richer = poor gas mileage. I took The PCIII off bike ran perfect. Granted there are GREAT tuners out there that will give you your money's worth on a custom map. Just not near me and it's not worth the money vs gain in my book. The 900RR set up is the ticket for the 919.
Lets just put it this way.... one of honda's ex head mechanics / motor guru's (who still gets called to big events to tune hondas bikes) has a shop near me... my buddy works there. Hell honda dropped off a brand new CBR1000RR for all the PowerCommander goodies the last time i was there for some review.

He dyno tuned a 919 that came in with some slipons ... and when he tunes shit he knows what hes doing... made 110ish at the rear wheel... which aint bad but only ~ 10hp extra.

The 919 just aint a power machine.... though he said... god damn that thing was rich stock.

Mine is so bad my buddy came up to me after following mine when it was cold and said dude are you burning oil i saw a black puff... im like nope thats just running rich.

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post #19 of 27 Old 05-12-2012, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CB700S View Post
It's still firing blind with no means to determine if the fuel dictated by the map is actually correct or if it needs adjustment. The O2 sensor is not just for pollution control. If it was, systems like Wolf EMS, Electromotive or MegaSquirt (which are aftermarket EFI systems intended to be used on non-pollution controlled vehicles!) would not have a provision for an O2 sensor, but they all do. I've been working with those (specifically MegaSquirt) for the past decade or so.

(Also, how exactly does CO2 combust in the presence of O2 and somehow become CO2? I don't remember that being an option per my chemistry class.)

The stock fuel map for the 919 is essentially the sort of thing you'd start with as a baseline on a MegaSquirted vehicle; you start rich to make sure the vehicle will keep running no matter what it does and to avoid damage to the engine, then refine from there as needed. A MegaSquirted vehicle can then automatically adjust the map as needed, of course - because of the O2 sensor, if you fit one. Otherwise, it too is firing blind based off of a map - and if you're smart you'll keep that map on the rich side in that case.
Keyboard error.
CO combusts and ends as CO2.

So, if a FI system has a baseline map and does ongoing real time changes to based on multi input sensed varying air mass flow, it's blind ?
That is absolutely daft, case closed.
The most sophisticated, for sure not.
But no way "blind".
An ancient constant flow mechanical type, like a classic 8 stacker Hilborn on a V8, now THAT is what I'd agree is blind.
An O2 feedback loop makes for a superior system, no question on that point.

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post #20 of 27 Old 05-13-2012, 01:05 AM
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I think you've got they two processes reversed in terms of cost and work. The 900RR exhaust is a whole lot cheaper to do than a PCIII. And work? The most work involved is fabricating a small tab to secure the exhaust can to the rear peg mount. The last PCIII I purchased cost me $300 then another $300 for a custom map. And I got a crap map. I swear the bike ran worse, decel pop and richer = poor gas mileage. I took The PCIII off bike ran perfect. Granted there are GREAT tuners out there that will give you your money's worth on a custom map. Just not near me and it's not worth the money vs gain in my book. The 900RR set up is the ticket for the 919.
yeah, you're right. I was pretty much mistaken. although I love the look of the 919's dual "afterburners", the gas burner smell is quite (ob)noxious.

I suppose I could acquire parts needed for the 900RR mod, do it, and hold onto the stock headers and cans if for some weird reason I start to miss the stench.



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The 919 just aint a power machine.... though he said... god damn that thing was rich stock.

Mine is so bad my buddy came up to me after following mine when it was cold and said dude are you burning oil i saw a black puff... im like nope thats just running rich.
for me personally, increasing hp's is not that much of a concern, so it would be a matter of which mod is better for getting rid of the stink...

PCIII:

- Pro: I'd get to keep the badass-looking stock mufflers
- Con: Expensive and possibly a big hassle to get the right mapping

900RR:

- Pro: Costs less, easier to do myself, and would also shed excess weight... or at least, i would imagine
- Con: 919's tail looks a little weird without the underseat exhaust cans



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post #21 of 27 Old 05-13-2012, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
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1
the gas burner smell is quite (ob)noxious.

2
A
for me personally, increasing hp's is not that much of a concern, so it would be a matter of which mod is better for getting rid of the stink...
B
PCIII:
- Con: Expensive and possibly a big hassle to get the right mapping
1
Like others have said, the fuel one uses makes a difference.
87 should be less stinky that 91 or whatever PON# premium grade is in your area.
A Tier 1 87 would be my choice.
What have you been running ?

2
A
The most effective destink strategy should be a relocated exhaust exit.
The underseat exits are terrible in the sense they eject the gases into a turbulent low pressure zone so it just stays trapped there before working its way out into the air stream as you move along.
B
There are lots of good maps readily available for free from this site.
Start with those, and if one gets satisfactory results, then there is no need for a custom map - unless one wants one for another reason.

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post #22 of 27 Old 05-13-2012, 02:09 PM
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what it all really comes down to.... is the fact that even though i have Le 919 stink.... im WAY to cheap to go 900rr or pc3 and map. so i live with it hahaha.

And honestly i dont feel as though low throttle / low speed situations are jerky at all on my 919.... maybe ignorance is bliss.

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post #23 of 27 Old 05-14-2012, 04:21 PM
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no soot inside exhaust..plugs clean... runs smooth and crisp...and starts in all weather....if thats rich its fine by me....when you been around bikes for a while you learn to leave well enough alone...if anyone around new england area has a pc111 installed with or without exhaust and would like to show me how much better there bike runs over stock....lets get it on then we can post results

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post #24 of 27 Old 05-14-2012, 05:07 PM
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Mine don't stink. I asked Mark when I bought it from him if it was a stinker and he said " a little". Doesn't seem to be any build up that I can see at the pipe ends. I'm just a little old so maybe my smeller doesn't work so good.

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post #25 of 27 Old 05-14-2012, 06:40 PM
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My 9er is completely stock and I have had zero stink. I even smelled my jacket, which I wear around uni, and asked my pillion if she ever smells it at all, and nope (and trust me she would be the first to complain!) Im about to install CF Leo Vince cans and hope that doesn't create a problem! If it does I'll also opt for a PC3 which will fix the throttle jerkiness I get at low city commenting speeds also. Now back to talking about fuel. I use BP 98, is this equivalent you guys 91 fuel? I'm just not sure how fuel is labeled north of the equator :-)

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post #26 of 27 Old 05-14-2012, 07:00 PM
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i honestly have no idea how yall's 919's dont stink...

My blinkers which are located just below the outlet of the pipes can start out perfectly clean on a ride and end up having the top covered in black by the end of the ride.

and its not like im running premium which would make stink / unburnt fuel worse.... im a cheap ass and as such it gets regular 87 octane.

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post #27 of 27 Old 05-14-2012, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
1
Like others have said, the fuel one uses makes a difference.
87 should be less stinky that 91 or whatever PON# premium grade is in your area.
A Tier 1 87 would be my choice.
What have you been running ?
I don't run anything but 87 octane. I've never kept track of whether using cheapo no-name or Top-Tier gas has made any difference in stink levels, but I'll try some so-called high quality gas and see...

Quote:
2
A
The most effective destink strategy should be a relocated exhaust exit.
The underseat exits are terrible in the sense they eject the gases into a turbulent low pressure zone so it just stays trapped there before working its way out into the air stream as you move along.
B
There are lots of good maps readily available for free from this site.
Start with those, and if one gets satisfactory results, then there is no need for a custom map - unless one wants one for another reason.
yeah, my SV650's got the typical low, side-mounted can and I get zero stench in my nostrils and clothes

damnit, i'm tired to throwing money at my damn bikes... I think i'll just deal with the stink for now



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