What? Lazy on a 919. - Wrist Twisters
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 22 Old 07-04-2008, 06:28 PM Thread Starter
Tirone
 
MisterB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 86
Rep Power: 1
 
What? Lazy on a 919.

I have found myself doing a lot of "speed shift" lately on my '02 919... any short/long term potential damage???

PS: I do ease on the throttle a wee bit just to take the load of the gears when I shift up.

...am I being lazy or it is just a great way to smoke it?

MisterB is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 22 Old 07-04-2008, 06:49 PM
Sixty-9er
 
edgecrusher4444's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 663
Rep Power: 1
 
The lever on the left is there for a reason...

"Grip it and Rip it!"
edgecrusher4444 is offline  
post #3 of 22 Old 07-04-2008, 06:56 PM
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
sugs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,843
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

I only use the clutch to upshift when I'm stuck behind someone driving slow. I know someone else on this forum who almost never uses the clutch to upshift and he has over 50,000 miles on the bike with no ill effects.

'02 Honda 919 - She's the only one for me!

sugs is offline  
post #4 of 22 Old 07-04-2008, 06:57 PM
Tirone
 
propulsion's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 8
Rep Power: 1
 
If it is done right, it is very smooth. I don't see major damage occurring. The clutch is definitely required for certain situations, especially at low speeds.

We need someone to report on the long term effects of doing this.

propulsion is offline  
post #5 of 22 Old 07-05-2008, 01:04 AM
9-5-4, 9-2-9, means 9-1-9
 
darkace625's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 1,651
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Donation Veteran 
Total Awards: 3

As quoted from a certain member here, paging Rob, "So that's what that lever on the left is."

2005 Honda 919
If you bite the hand that feeds you, it won't taste as good as the food you were fed.
PGR #120827

Xbox Live: Nine19CnynCrvr / www.facebook.com/bdong625
darkace625 is offline  
post #6 of 22 Old 07-05-2008, 07:17 AM
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Sniper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,490
Rep Power: 1
 
There is a difference betwixt speed shifting and clutchless shifting.

Speed shifting you hold the throttle wide open and use the clutch lever when you shift.

Clutchless shifting is when you momentarily get off the throttle and the instant there is no load on the gearbox, you go into the next gear.

When speed shifting there is an instant there is no load on a screaming engine. Then BAM the clutch has to deal with the load of a fully revved engine. So IMHO, speed shifting id abusive. I never do it.

Clutchless shifting, when done correctly and smoothly induces almost no stress on the engine, clutch or gearbox. I almost never use the clutch upshifting and only about half the time downshifting. Nearly all semi drivers seldom use the clutch.

Sniper is offline  
post #7 of 22 Old 07-05-2008, 08:10 AM
Franklin McGillacutty
 
riquefied919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Aurora IL
Posts: 1,181
Rep Power: 1
 
AHHH the art of floating thru the gears as someone who drove a semi in chicago I'll tell you the more clutch foot stays on the floor the better your left knee feels. Having said that a gear box in a semi is unsyncronized and easier to float. Unless your real good or looking to knock off time on your drag et's your better off using the clutch.

riquefied919 is offline  
post #8 of 22 Old 07-05-2008, 10:32 AM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,350
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
Clutchless shifting, when done correctly and smoothly induces almost no stress on the engine, clutch or gearbox. I almost never use the clutch upshifting and only about half the time downshifting. Nearly all semi drivers seldom use the clutch.
+1
Long term effects? It depends on how you do it.

When I first started riding I usually used the clutch to shift, but felt there was a better way to do it. Once I started to riding on twisty roads such as GMR I stopped using the clutch for upshifts and have been doing it ever since. I must qualify that by saying I use the clutch to downshift most of the time to prevent excessive engine braking when setting up for a corner -- slipping the clutch helps keep the rear tire hooked up under hard braking.

In the 40 years and well over 500,000 miles of riding hundreds of different motorcycles I have not had a trans failure due to wear or damage from clutchless shifting, and I tend to hang on to bikes for a very long time -- my '88 Honda Hawk GT, which I still have, has right at 150,000 miles on it and the notoriously weak trans was doing fine until a crash in a diesel fuel slick jammed the shifter hard enough to break a shift fork.

A quick overview of the internals of a typical motorcycle trans drafted on my CAD program:

Gears engaged. As long as there is a load from accelerating, decelerating, or steady riding the gears are locked together.


Disengaged. When the load is interrupted either by rolling off/on the throttle or pulling in the clutch the engagement dog faces lose contact and the sliding gear is free to move. It takes very little time for this to happen.


Blocking happens about 60% of the time when engaging the next gear regardless of whether you use the clutch or not -- the shoulders of the dogs meet and have to slide scross each other to drop into engagement. This can be felt as a "step" in the travel of the shift lever.


This blocked condition is when most damage happens. If too much force is applied to the shift lever, the film of oil between the shoulders is pushed out, resulting in metal to metal contact. As the dogs slide across each other the contact area decreases and wear increases, reaching a maximum just before they clear enough to engage, rounding the corners. Once there is enough rounding the faces will become angled, eventually pushing them apart with sufficient force to overcome the tension of the detent, causing jumping out of gear usually under hard acceleration, but eventually all the time.

In order to prevent this, apply only enough pressure to the shift lever to move it (plus a little) and keep this pressure applied until the next gear is fully engaged -- the false engagement of the blocked condition can feel like full engagement, but if you let off the shift lever at that point the only force completing the shift will be from the detent roller, which is insufficient and will cause partial engagement or skipping/grinding.

Shifting without the clutch will not cause any more wear than with the clutch as long as you learn how to do it properly, and with experience can make shifts practically undetectable other than a change in exhaust sound.

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
robtharalson is offline  
post #9 of 22 Old 07-05-2008, 02:28 PM
orange
 
sbeau1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 9,193
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Donation Community Service 
Total Awards: 6

Excellent tutorial as usual Rob!

sbeau1960 is offline  
post #10 of 22 Old 07-06-2008, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
Tirone
 
MisterB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 86
Rep Power: 1
 
That you all for the clarification.

MisterB is offline  
post #11 of 22 Old 07-07-2008, 01:42 PM
Tonight we ride
 
Nemo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 450
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride Extraordinary Ride 
Total Awards: 2

Thanks Rob--amazing clarity as usual.

Nemo is offline  
post #12 of 22 Old 07-07-2008, 04:21 PM
Milites Gregarius
 
Bazooka Moe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 176
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Check out the brain on Rob! Thanks man.
I've been getting worried about what that was occasionally when shifting.
My old X-6 Suzuki used to do it now and then. I don't remember it being as much as my 919.
Thanks again!

Bazooka Moe is offline  
post #13 of 22 Old 07-07-2008, 04:47 PM
Dragon Slayer
 
oak1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 1,069
Rep Power: 1
 
I do clutch less shifting all the time. Been doing it for years on many bikes. But only up shifts and only when accelerating conservatively. I always back off the throttle a bit too.

oak1971 is offline  
post #14 of 22 Old 07-07-2008, 06:55 PM
Optio
 
firedave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 953
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage
Thanks Rob, tried this last night and found that I was shifting very smoothly after only a few tries.

firedave is offline  
post #15 of 22 Old 07-07-2008, 07:37 PM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,350
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazooka Moe View Post
Check out the brain on Rob! Thanks man.
I've been getting worried about what that was occasionally when shifting.
My old X-6 Suzuki used to do it now and then. I don't remember it being as much as my 919.
Thanks again!
By "that" I assume you mean partially engaging or grinding into the next gear. Or is it the step in the lever travel? It just takes a small adjustment of the shifting procedure and getting used to what it's telling you.

BTW, I had an X6 as well -- which I modified for 250 GP class (believe it or not), and it was posessed of a trans with 5 neutrals and an occasional gear. I cured this by undercutting all the dogs by about 2 degrees to tend to pull deeper into engagement, ramping and deepening the detents on the shift drum, and installing a much heavier detent spring. No problems after that. It did, however, go through a crankshaft every race. I got so good at removing the crank it only took about 30 minutes once the fairing was off. Unfortunately, its 47 HP was no match for the TZ 250's 51-54 HP, so I retired it.

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
robtharalson is offline  
post #16 of 22 Old 07-08-2008, 05:36 PM
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,563
Rep Power: 0
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Veteran 
Total Awards: 2

I guess it's time for an inspection for mine. Twice at Willow Springs last Sunday, I was upshifting to 5th going to turn 7, when I ended up with no gears.

That wasn't as bad as going to turn 1 at 120+, downshifting to 4th in the brake zone without applying any brakes, and ending up with nothing.
Visions of flying through the dirt only lasted a nano second. Any thoughts of braking were dismissed instantly. I downshifted again, set up for the left hander and gassed it hard. The fear disappeared with the flying vision. :001_smile:

Wonder how long it takes to tear down the lower crankcase?

Sokali is offline  
post #17 of 22 Old 07-08-2008, 06:58 PM
Milites Gregarius
 
daveb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: White Plains, New York
Posts: 123
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 2

Smile

Damn Rob, Too bad you don't live here in the north east, and were into sleds. I'd love to see some of your mods to the clutches.

daveb is offline  
post #18 of 22 Old 07-08-2008, 07:23 PM
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,563
Rep Power: 0
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Veteran 
Total Awards: 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokali View Post
I guess it's time for an inspection for mine. Twice at Willow Springs last Sunday, I was upshifting to 5th going to turn 7, when I ended up with no gears.

That wasn't as bad as going to turn 1 at 120+, downshifting to 4th in the brake zone without applying any brakes, and ending up with nothing.
Visions of flying through the dirt only lasted a nano second. Any thoughts of braking were dismissed instantly. I downshifted again, set up for the left hander and gassed it hard. The fear disappeared with the flying vision. :001_smile:

Wonder how long it takes to tear down the lower crankcase?
Rob,

About time you got back; how was the ride?

GMR, when?

Sokali is offline  
post #19 of 22 Old 07-08-2008, 07:34 PM
Milites Gregarius
 
Bazooka Moe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 176
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
By "that" I assume you mean partially engaging or grinding into the next gear. Or is it the step in the lever travel? It just takes a small adjustment of the shifting procedure and getting used to what it's telling you.
Rob
I think it's the step I've been mistaking as 'shift complete' at times. Not that it was grinding, but just didn't feel like the shift cycle had been complete. Today I wasn't so quick to backoff the lever when it seemed like it needed a moment, and I could feel a 2nd nudge of the lever, and I knew it was fully engaged.
I know I'm getting learning and getting used to the 919. Like making more of an effort to match RPM and MPH. That alone seemed to make the 'half-shift' disappear. I'll keep at it.
It's been a little difficult this week. I only ride six miles to work, and it's been a little rainy lately. I'm more sure of myself on one hand, and respecting the 919 on the other! There are so many nuts on the road I can't let my guard down for a sec. I think I'm about due for a relaxing ride. Oh, and a MSF course or track day to learn how to dance with this bike. (I digress).

Say, I guess you did quite a bit with the X-6! I only had mine for a year but it was great fun. Mine shifted fine unless I got sloppy. Then it'd just slip out of gear and remind me to behave.

The biggest troublemaker you'll probably ever have to deal with, watches you from the mirror every mornin'.
Bazooka Moe is offline  
post #20 of 22 Old 07-08-2008, 10:22 PM
Church of the Holy Smoke
 
MotoCycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 1,085
Rep Power: 1
 
http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/shifting.html

I am pretty sure this was posted here by someone several years back.. either way.. more pics and groovy details.

- Rev. CYCHO -

tires.... it's what's for dinner!
MotoCycho is offline  
post #21 of 22 Old 07-09-2008, 10:19 AM
Aquilifer
 
bucky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: alaska
Posts: 1,249
Rep Power: 1
 
i believe those who are missing shifts periodically are not "sure" enough in their foot movements. sometimes i get sloppy and really only stroke the lever through part of its proper travel.

that lever on the left is for leaving a stop, by the way. sometimes i use it for downshifts as well.

bucky is offline  
post #22 of 22 Old 07-09-2008, 02:30 PM
Milites Gregarius
 
Bazooka Moe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 176
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Practice, Practice...

The biggest troublemaker you'll probably ever have to deal with, watches you from the mirror every mornin'.
Bazooka Moe is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome