Upgraded master cylinder? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 07:24 AM Thread Starter
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Upgraded master cylinder?

Does anyone know of a better master cylinder for 919's? I got G&J ss brakelines installed and it still feels a little softer than I want up front. The rear feels nice and tight. Side by side with my buddy's buel the 9er is lacking in he front. Any ideas for new or a good swap? My search didn't turn much up.

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post #2 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 07:27 AM
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You seriously feel the niners brakes are lacking?!? IMHO the 919 has stellar brakes, you might want to bleed yours again. I can modulate with one or 2 fingers and you could easily stand her on her nose without much pull.




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post #3 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 07:28 AM
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No need for a swap, the stock master cyl. is more than up for the job.

You need to get all the air out of the lines.

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post #4 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 07:42 AM
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I find the only thing hampering the brake performance on my 919 is the pilot power front tire I'm runnin'. I belive in late braking and find the front tire howling often and when sure of my traction like at the track I do stoppies. The system is vertical and air rises bleeding the lines at the master and tapping the lines to help the bubbles move is what works best for me. I also use dot5 fluid and change it when I change oil. Regular fluid is hydro-scopic and picks up moisture to keep from corroding the bts and pieces. That moisture will heat up and cause brake fade with repeated hard braking. In short with SS/line the niner's brakes are very good.

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post #5 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 08:17 AM Thread Starter
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Hmmmm. I'm 99% sure there isn't a single bubble in the lines. I bleed them a bunch of times. I'll try again and make sure.

Let me clarify my complaint. Vs other bikes I've ridden (in this case the buell) the 919 MC allows more play. I like the feel of an extra firm lever. I don't have trouble stopping or even a stoppie now and again. It's just preference.

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post #6 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 08:44 AM
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First bleed the brakes. If you want to upgrade master go with a Radial 16x18 Brembo or Nissin. I'm pretty sure you could find one on ebay off a 600or1000RR.
I did this on my R6 swapped to R1 Radial Master. It was incredible the difference I found in most situations 2 fingers to be too much.

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post #7 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 10:00 AM
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i wonder if this could be helped with some crg levers, i do not have them but, have read that the make brakes and clutch pulling feel better. dont know if that makes cents but like my brakes soo.......................

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post #8 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 11:38 AM
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I'm using stock levers for now and with the adjuster set so the lever is it's closest to the grip I can (while the bike is parked) squezze the grip very hard and get it close to the grip. With the lever adjusted all the way out it will only get to with-in two inches (center ball to center of bar end). It's very firm no spongeeness at all. If you went with a different master cylinder to reduce force required (smaller piston diameter) the lever would travel further.

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post #9 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 11:43 AM
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I should also state the force I'm using is way more than you could use riding. I also have my forks set on the hardest setting for compression and rebound(mines an '04) and almost full in on spring preload. The brakes have affect right away.

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post #10 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 01:05 PM
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You have air trapped somewhere. Try taking the calipers loose and turn them all around while tapping with the handle of a screwdriver. Loosen the mastercylinder and do the same.
Plus before you even unlock your bars, squeeze the lever a few times to catch any bubbles that may have floated up overnight.
I have that same fetish about a mushy brake feel.

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post #11 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 04:57 PM
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If you really want amazing power, go with the Brembo billet radial master. They are about $475, but they really are incredible.

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post #12 of 25 Old 10-24-2008, 06:18 PM
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I can tell you I have a 2007 CBR600RR sitting right next to my 919 and the brake feel is no where close. I have bled the 919 a million times and it doesn't come close. I had the same problem on my motard then switched it to a radial master and now it feels just like to newer type bike.

I'm thinking of doing the same thing with the 9er, although I've got CRG levers on it and I don't think it will swap over to a radial master.

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post #13 of 25 Old 10-25-2008, 04:42 AM
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I have an 07 600RR. Awesome brakes. Possibly over the top, especially after I put SS lines on it. In order to "calm them down" a bit, I adjusted the lever to the middle of the adjustment range, which in effect gave it a bit of freeplay, and a bit more feel, and a bit less leverage. More user friendly now.

On the 919, I went the other direction. I moved the adjuster so the lever was nearly all the way out. Less freeplay. More leverage. Stainless lines on it also.

Blackie, essentially what you want, is to do the same job with less effort. I'm afraid you're going to throw $200 at a 50 cent "problem". I go back and forth between bikes and rarely do I even think about the difference in brakes.

Try adjusting the lever all the way out, then ride the thing. Who cares what they feel like in a parking lot next to a Buell. (I really like Buells btw. I'd never own one tho.)

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post #14 of 25 Old 10-25-2008, 07:42 AM
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why not just get a master cylinder off a wrecked cbr600 or 1000 late model and install it... shouldnt cost too much.. and fairly simple... and if it dont work swap it back and your not out much $$



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post #15 of 25 Old 10-25-2008, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barton664 View Post
why not just get a master cylinder off a wrecked cbr600 or 1000 late model and install it... shouldnt cost too much.. and fairly simple... and if it dont work swap it back and your not out much $$
I think it is about good, better, and best. I think the brakes we have (with upgraded lines) are good. I'm guessing it would be better with a radial master from another bike. But, the Brembo (and a few others) are in the best category. The brake upgrades I have done to my ZX10 are my second favorite modification (only second to suspension). There is nothing like coming into a corner at triple digits and just gently touching the brakes lever while getting all the stopping power you want. It is awesome!!!

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post #16 of 25 Old 10-25-2008, 09:07 AM
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Read Rob's thread regarding this subject.

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post #17 of 25 Old 10-25-2008, 11:09 AM
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I have a 929 also. The 929 has very good brakes also. SS lines there also. But they are not a whole lot better than the 919.

The only thing I question Rob about in his thread is when he assumes the 929 uses soft pads. My first set went nearly 20,000 miles. I'm not saying he's wrong, just questioning....

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post #18 of 25 Old 10-25-2008, 02:05 PM
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Whether it is tires or brake pads, I'm not looking for longevity. If I was talking about the tires for my Toyota Matrix, sure (or brake pads). But, on my bike I want stuff that works really well, great if possible. So, if you can afford the Brembo (and you have ridden long enough to have a soft touch/feel), then I see no reason not to have it. But, to each their own.

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post #19 of 25 Old 11-03-2008, 07:01 PM
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Proper setup vs. "upgrades"

When this post appeared I was on vacation, so here's my take on it.
First, my qualifications: I have done dozens of brake conversions, in fact it used to be part of my job description, and in that time I learned a thing or two hundred about the ins and outs of hydraulic braking systems.
Let me dispel any misconceptions about "better" master cylinders: a trick radial master that worked wonders on a ZX10 (or whatever) would probably be a disaster on the 919 for the simple reason that it would almost certainly be too large for a proper hydraulic ratio. Make no mistake -- when sitting in the garage it would feel very impressive, with about 1/4" of travel at the lever end before feeling like it ran into a steel bar. On the road, however, your opinion would do a 180 degree turn the first time you tried to stop. Hydraulic brake systems are all about leverage ratios, in this case the ratio of the area of the master cylinder piston to the areas of all the pistons in the calipers times the leverage ratio of an average position of the index finger on the lever to the length of the lever cam: arbitrarily 3:1. The 919's ratio is 33.42:1 (14mm master, four 30.15mm and four 27mm caliper pistons) times 3 . These ratios combined with the Cf of the brake pads translates a 10 Lb pull at the lever to 1002 Lbs at the pads, and has you squealing the front tire. If a "trick" $500 master cylinder with a piston of 18mm is fitted the ratio lowers to 20.2:1 * 3, the same 10Lb pull becomes a paltry 606 Lb shove from the calipers, and wide eyes as you aren't stopping nearly as fast as you used to. In fact, it would take 60% more force at the lever to equal the stop of the original master.

There are things you can do to decrease the initial travel of the lever, and none of them involve replacing the master cylinder. First and foremost bleed the brakes thoroughly. Second, convert to full floating rotors to insure the pads are never knocked back by the inevitable runout of even semi floating rotors. Third, adjust the position of the master cylinder piston with ring shims to bring the primary seal right to the leading edge of the compensating port, minimizing free travel. Fourth, make sure there is no free play between the cam end of the lever and the end of the piston. Fifth, and by far the most difficult, is to work over all the caliper pistons with crocus cloth to where they all start to move at the same time, eliminating sequential engagement. I have done all of these, and it definitely makes for a very positive lever, but to do it properly takes the better part of a week and lots of knowledge and experience.

Frankly, I'd prefer to ride for that week, and live with brakes that will howl the tire with one finger! Which, incidentally, is what you will end up with after that week of extremely picky work: it just starts a couple milliseconds sooner. Unless you're really anal, it's not worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
I have a 929 also. The 929 has very good brakes also. SS lines there also. But they are not a whole lot better than the 919. The only thing I question Rob about in his thread is when he assumes the 929 uses soft pads. My first set went nearly 20,000 miles. I'm not saying he's wrong, just questioning....
In this case, "soft" means "20% more pad area and less pressure needed to obtain equal friction", not necessarily "wears faster". Just a difference in viewpoint.

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post #20 of 25 Old 11-03-2008, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
Let me dispel any misconceptions about "better" master cylinders: a trick radial master that worked wonders on a ZX10 (or whatever) would probably be a disaster on the 919 for the simple reason that it would almost certainly be too large for a proper hydraulic ratio. If a "trick" $500 master cylinder with a piston of 18mm is fitted the ratio lowers to 20.2:1
Rob
Wow, that sure was an interesting way in which to throw stones.....

There are a lot of radial masters "trick" or not, with a lot of piston sizes. There is no doubt a radial master our there with the correct piston sizes for the 919. By the way, I'm perfectly happy with my 919 with a set of Spiegler lines. But, my ZX10 (not whatever), would blow your mind with its trick radial master.

Clearly you have a lot of knowledge. Personally, I tell the expert what it is I want and they make it happen. I did all my own work when I was younger, if that matters. Either way, there is really no need to get rude.

Later, Steve

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post #21 of 25 Old 11-03-2008, 07:18 PM
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i just had a point driven home..... rob is really really smart....



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post #22 of 25 Old 11-03-2008, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sike View Post
Wow, that sure was an interesting way in which to throw stones.....

There are a lot of radial masters "trick" or not, with a lot of piston sizes. There is no doubt a radial master our there with the correct piston sizes for the 919. By the way, I'm perfectly happy with my 919 with a set of Spiegler lines. But, my ZX10 (not whatever), would blow your mind with its trick radial master.

Clearly you have a lot of knowledge. Personally, I tell the expert what it is I want and they make it happen. I did all my own work when I was younger, if that matters. Either way, there is really no need to get rude.

Later, Steve
No denigration intended, and that your master cylinder works beautifully is indisputable, but I've been fighting this for the 30 years I've been working on braking systems: a state of the art master cylinder that is the wrong size will not work as well as an average master cylinder of the right size. It's all about suitability for an application, not the quality of the components.

By the way, I've been having a hell of a time finding 13mm and 14mm master cylinders of any quality from any aftermarket manufacturers -- if anyone out there knows where they may be had I'd appreciate a heads up. I can, and have, made them, but it's a hassle I'd rather avoid.

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post #23 of 25 Old 11-03-2008, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
It's all about suitability for an application, not the quality of the components.

Rob
Sorry if I was jumping to a conclusion there. Given this is your area of expertise, I've got a question for you. The three best brakes I have ever experienced are the new 1098S brakes, the setup on my 10, and the MV 312 brakes. The 312 appears to be an example of what you are talking about. How on earth do they get that setup with those Nissan components to work so incredibly? I mean, that is an intense bike, with amazing components, but the brakes appear to not match the bike, but work incredibly. I'm a little amazed by what seems like a mismatch and isn't.

Thanks, Steve

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post #24 of 25 Old 11-03-2008, 11:54 PM
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As a company, Nissin is not known for innovation -- many of their calipers are unashamed copies of other company's designs, most notably their four piston calipers until recently on most all Hondas -- Brembo designs, and the monobloc Yamaha calipers which were lifted from the original Spondon motorcycle and Brembo automotive units. If they are not known for innovation, they are certainly renowned, and rightfully so, for their talented structural engineering and metallurigal / manufacturing staff. When it comes to these areas they are second to none. In my studies of the 919, 929, and 954 calipers under pressure the total deflection at the center of the bodies (furthest away from the buttressing of the cross supports at each end) was less than 0.001", exceptional considering my earlier studies of Brembo units which averaged three times as much. Their metallurgy is considerably better as well, rumored to be utilizing aluminum/lithium castings (for their high end units) selectively chilled to control stress concentrations and load paths without resorting to much more expensive forgings or heavier bodies, affecting a useful life span considerably greater than any other manufacturer. In short, their components are world class, and they make them by the hundreds of thousands.

So if by "mismatched" you mean "not Italian", then yes they are, but one thing's certain: all the components are certainly carefully optimized for function, and therefore work very well. Of course, MV specified what they wanted, and doubtlessly Nissin pulled out all the stops to be sure their products lived up to the reputation of the bike. Anything less would be a corporate disaster, and disasters are very bad for business.

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post #25 of 25 Old 11-04-2008, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
So if by "mismatched" you mean "not Italian", then yes they are, but one thing's certain: all the components are certainly carefully optimized for function, and therefore work very well. Of course, MV specified what they wanted, and doubtlessly Nissin pulled out all the stops to be sure their products lived up to the reputation of the bike. Anything less would be a corporate disaster, and disasters are very bad for business.

Rob
Thanks for the info, it actually has been something puzzling me ever since I road the bike. By mismatched, I guess I just never thought of Nissan being so good. However, the funny thing is that the 04-07 ZX10 owners are (in huge numbers) trading out their Tokico's for the Nissan's on the 04-05 6r and 06-07 ZX-14. The results are amazing, even though they are just "stock" calipers.

Thanks, Steve

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