Traxxion Dynamics Suspension upgrades for 919 - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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Traxxion Dynamics Suspension upgrades for 919

I wanted a 919 with adj suspension frt/rear, so I checked with them and they have what appears to be a good deal (I hope) $1650. It includes a Penske fully adj shock comp/rebound and ride height & preload for the rear. The front is a cartridge that is adj for preload, comp & rebound. Comp is done on one leg, rebound on the other, which I believe how Yam does it for the FZ1. They hadn't done one for a 02 919 like mine, so we'll see how well it comes out. They replace with the appropriate spring, new fluid, seals and fork caps. BTW this includes labor, just send in your forks as is, which from CO to CA was only $46 with insurance. This is just FYI to any who might be interested.

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post #2 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 03:31 PM
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post #3 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 04:01 PM
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What kinda cartriges are the fronts ? .... Jw ...

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post #4 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 04:20 PM
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I'd be interested to hear how it works out when you get it all back together.

I broke down in Montrose, CO one time.


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post #5 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 04:31 PM Thread Starter
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Yes it's setup from them based on your weight and riding style, shipped back to you and all you need to do is re-installed the forks. Ok course the final tuning is done by you for the terrain & style of riding. The cartridges are their design and manufacture I assume. They also make a hi end (read expensive) gas cartridge application that can be moved to another bike. I believe that rachtech does something similar.

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post #6 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 07:06 PM
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Does the rear have both hi and low speed compression external adjusters ?
If not, make a point of asking about the low speed compression circuit you are getting.
I got my 2 way Penske from somewhere else. (2 way means Hi Speed Compression adjustment only) The low speed damping was too soft and could not be adjusted. I got the shock converted to a 3 way and now all is OK. Penkse uses the same main shock body for the Triumph Tiger 1050 which is link type rear. I started with a 1000 #/inch rear and later went to 1100. Doing track days on Michelin 2CT tires and I weigh 170 # before gear. My front is 0.925 kg/mm springing. I got my front end revalved. You have gone further with the front than I did. Let us know how it all works out and what your impressions are. I am very interested in hearing more from you about your setup and how you like it.

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post #7 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 07:33 PM
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I cant and dont believe Traxxion would only do a cartridge in one fork.
I Traxxionized my Goldwing This past summer. AK20 cartridges and springs in both sides and a Penske rear shock.

That'll work........
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post #8 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 07:38 PM
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I think he meant cartridges in both sides, but each side dedicated. One side is Compression, the other side is rebound. My guess is that they are using 2004 on style top external adjusters, with one of them modified to be the compression adjuster in the compression side cartridge. Does this make sense ?

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post #9 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 08:23 PM
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Gotcha...Should have read it more carefully. Even still, The mismatching thing of one side doing one thing and the other doing another just doesnt sound right. Thats the problem with the Goldwing from the get go. A damper rod in one side and a half ass excuse for a cartridge in the other. Dismal 70's technology in a brand new big dollar touring bike...Pretty much unacceptable.

That'll work........
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post #10 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I think he meant cartridges in both sides, but each side dedicated. One side is Compression, the other side is rebound. My guess is that they are using 2004 on style top external adjusters, with one of them modified to be the compression adjuster in the compression side cartridge. Does this make sense ?
I believe that's what they are doing, with their A20 units. They have to modify the fork caps so that one controls comp the other side rebound. Mine will be a bit of a r & d for 02 919s, so I'm taking their advise and explainations on face value, in for a penny in for a pound.

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post #11 of 66 Old 12-09-2009, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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I cant and dont believe Traxxion would only do a cartridge in one fork.
I Traxxionized my Goldwing This past summer. AK20 cartridges and springs in both sides and a Penske rear shock.
No it would be both sides.

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post #12 of 66 Old 12-10-2009, 03:55 PM
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I called Traxxion this afternoon to find out the skinny....They would be using the AK20 cartdridge in both sides with one compression adjustment and the other rebound. Both cartdriges have compression and re-bound valving but only one has and adjustment for re-bound and the other has the adjuster for compression. Basically exactly what you said in your first post. I really appologize for opening my mouth and inserting my foot...

The guys at Traxxion are nothing but PRO at what they do and that $1600.00
that you spend with them will turn your bike into something really special. You'd think you just dropped $10k on a brand spanking new motorcycle the first time you ride it.

That'll work........
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post #13 of 66 Old 12-10-2009, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97af View Post
Gotcha...Should have read it more carefully. Even still, The mismatching thing of one side doing one thing and the other doing another just doesnt sound right. Thats the problem with the Goldwing from the get go. A damper rod in one side and a half ass excuse for a cartridge in the other. Dismal 70's technology in a brand new big dollar touring bike...Pretty much unacceptable.
Whith the axle tight the two sides become one. The bike knows no difference if one leg is doing the reb or both. Same for argument for comp. GP bikes use this method. So do a few street bikes. HP2 Enduros and the FZ1 are two examples. They don't have a damper rod in one side and half assed cartridge in the ohter.

Not sure about the wing though. Is it a damper rod on one side? That would be odd. But it would save money.

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post #14 of 66 Old 12-10-2009, 04:00 PM
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Oh yea. Sweet that traxxion is doing something for the 919.

Doing the work yourself on a set of F4i forks would be way cheaper. But, 1650 for built forks, and a good shock all set up ready to bolt on the bike seems like a good deal to me.

I doubt they are actually "set up" though. Assembled yes. But it will be up to you to set the sag and fiddle with the damper settings. Of coarse if you are competent enough to remove the old parts and install new ones you can surly handle the actual bike set up. Thats the fun part anyway. And its an excuse to ride.

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post #15 of 66 Old 12-10-2009, 04:47 PM
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Not sure about the wing though. Is it a damper rod on one side? That would be odd. But it would save money.
Yep....One damper rod.

That'll work........
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post #16 of 66 Old 12-10-2009, 07:07 PM
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fork brace

Would a fork brace be in order for doing something like compression on one leg and rebound on the other? Just thinking out loud...I don't pretend to know.

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post #17 of 66 Old 12-10-2009, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackheart View Post
Would a fork brace be in order for doing something like compression on one leg and rebound on the other? Just thinking out loud...I don't pretend to know.
It wouldnt hurt anything but probably not needed on the 919.

That'll work........
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post #18 of 66 Old 12-11-2009, 12:18 PM
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Nice work by rabbott and 97af.
We now know the front end set up has compression and rebound damping in both sides, but the external fine tuning / low speed damping controls are split, one side does compression adjustment the other does rebound.
Spring energy will be identical in both legs.
Damping energy will be close enough in both sides to consider them as being equal, in terms of considering unequal damping force upon the front end structure. In other words, if there was a reason to look at a fork brace, there isn't one anymore.
By biggest beef with the 919 front end (mine is fully Race Tech valved/sprung/oiled) is the stiction. I get as much as 15 mm of stiction when doing sag checks. (With big stiction numbers like 15 I don't not believe in using the +/-averaging method)I think the fork seals are too good and grab to some degree. The tubes are absolutely dry to the touch, unlike the tubes on our 600 and 750 that leave a barely detectable film you can more see than feel. I ended up doing a Dynamic Rider Sag check in order to get Rider sag numbers I could trust. ( I made up the term Dynamic Rider Sag and here is the method : 1 do a ballpark 35 mm Rider Sag or whatever number you are after. 2 get the front end off the ground, tire not touching and front end unloaded and full extended. 3 Add 5 mm to your target Rider Sag value. 4 take a piece of electrical tape and wrap it around the fork tube with the bottom of the tape at your Rider Sag + 5 mm value. 5 gently lower bike and get ready for a short slow ride close to home that has at least a 100 yard straight run. 6 putz along at 10-15 mph. 7 give it a touch of gas to unload the front end a bit and then declutch and stay off the front brake and just coast. 8 the coasting along will give enough input that the front end will find its true Rider Sag equilibrium point. 9 gently use the rear brake and come to a slow stop. See where the tape is in relation to the top of the fork seal, and now you know what your Rider Sag really is. Then go about changing your spring spacer length in pre 04 models or use your external ride height adjusters on your 04 and later models. Personally, I am using 95 mm spacers with my Race Tech 0.925 springs, 125 mm of oil height, and have the top 2 rings of ride height adjustment showing. The fork tubes are in the standard position in the clamps. Doing lots of Track Days miles on 2CTs. The rear is Penske with 1100 #/inch spring, running 11 mm of Free Sag, with shock lengthened 6 mm more than stock. I weigh 170 # before riding gear.

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post #19 of 66 Old 12-11-2009, 12:35 PM
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A bit more that I forgot to add in.
$ 1650 is an excellent price for what is being done and supplied, to say nothing of knowing you are dealing with a top shelf outfit. You can not go wrong dealing with Traxxion, and I'll bet their initial settings will please you, as long as you have been honest and accurate on your weight, tires and how you will be riding it. Don't be surprised if your rear spring collar is within 1/4 turn of where it needs to be for their target sag number. I wonder if rabbott is getting a 2 or 3 way Penske. Penske also uses the same main shock body for the Triumph Tiger 1050, which is a link type rear using about half the spring rate and needs less damping force. I bought my Penske as a 2 way, and the low speed damping (this IS the cause of the rear end pogo and oscillation you read about and hear about) was way too light and there was no way to adjust it. I ended up getting my 2 way converted to a 3 way, as well has having it tested on a shock dyno.

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post #20 of 66 Old 12-11-2009, 06:59 PM
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mcromo. That is one complicated way of setting sag. And not being rude but that can't be very repeatable and in theory would be no different than sitting still and just having a partner lift on the front then letting it down slowly to find the upper end of rider sag? I know you said you don't believe in the upper/lower average thing. But don't see why. Please explain.

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post #21 of 66 Old 12-11-2009, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97af View Post
I called Traxxion this afternoon to find out the skinny....They would be using the AK20 cartdridge in both sides with one compression adjustment and the other rebound. Both cartdriges have compression and re-bound valving but only one has and adjustment for re-bound and the other has the adjuster for compression. Basically exactly what you said in your first post. I really appologize for opening my mouth and inserting my foot...

The guys at Traxxion are nothing but PRO at what they do and that $1600.00
that you spend with them will turn your bike into something really special. You'd think you just dropped $10k on a brand spanking new motorcycle the first time you ride it.
I appreciate your encouragement re: the upgrades, today they are finishing the forks and the shock in is. Now if the weather would co-operate!

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post #22 of 66 Old 12-11-2009, 09:12 PM
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No problem re your questions which are good and deserve a response.
Before going further, on my son's GSX-r600 and my 750, we use the classic method.
But I was tearing my hair out on my 919 because of the huge difference between the hi and lo readings. We did 4 hi readings and 4 low readings for both Free Sag and Rider Sag. We averaged the hisand averaged the lows, then took the midpoint values, just like the books all say. (Push down, then slowly release and Lift Up, then slowly release) Our hi low range for Free Sag was 22.7 mm, and for Rider Sag it was 15 mm. Think of this this way, I had a target Rider Sag of 35 mm yet had a range of measurements from 27.5 to 42.5. Or you could say I had a range that was 43 % of what I was looking for (15/35 = 42%) This is nuts and simply can not be accurate. Using my Dynamic method, I get Rider Sag repeatability within 2-3 mm max total range. What is happening as you ride along is the pavement inputs to the front wheel allow the front end to float about on the internal clearances and let the spring force work on the fork seal friction until the front end finds its "neutral" position. By the way, my front end was squared up as well as it could be, the axle bores aligned for height, literally everything one can do to get misalignment stiction removed. Does this added info make the rest of what I said make more sense ? (I'm not suggesting you should agree with me, I'm just trying to make sure I am answering your questions.)

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post #23 of 66 Old 12-11-2009, 09:18 PM
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Clear as mud.......

I'm really glad some folks enjoy this process, and get good at this process, so that I can pay them and go riding.......

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post #24 of 66 Old 12-11-2009, 09:23 PM
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Sike, I tried, I really did.

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post #25 of 66 Old 12-11-2009, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
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Clear as mud.......

I'm really glad some folks enjoy this process, and get good at this process, so that I can pay them and go riding.......
it is comforting the thought that if you really want it done correctly you can pay someone.....



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post #26 of 66 Old 12-11-2009, 09:25 PM
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Sike, I tried, I really did.
You probably did a great job, but I lost focus a couple of words into it. Kind of like when one of my kids tells me about a new video game.

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post #27 of 66 Old 12-11-2009, 09:28 PM
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Um, I can be a bit wordy ........ this I do admit.

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post #28 of 66 Old 12-12-2009, 07:42 AM
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At least we all know who we can go to for suspension setups !! .... That's a plus lol

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post #29 of 66 Old 12-12-2009, 08:05 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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A bit more that I forgot to add in.
$ 1650 is an excellent price for what is being done and supplied, to say nothing of knowing you are dealing with a top shelf outfit. You can not go wrong dealing with Traxxion, and I'll bet their initial settings will please you, as long as you have been honest and accurate on your weight, tires and how you will be riding it. Don't be surprised if your rear spring collar is within 1/4 turn of where it needs to be for their target sag number. I wonder if rabbott is getting a 2 or 3 way Penske. Penske also uses the same main shock body for the Triumph Tiger 1050, which is a link type rear using about half the spring rate and needs less damping force. I bought my Penske as a 2 way, and the low speed damping (this IS the cause of the rear end pogo and oscillation you read about and hear about) was way too light and there was no way to adjust it. I ended up getting my 2 way converted to a 3 way, as well has having it tested on a shock dyno.
Dan @Traxxion says it's a 2 way adj, and according to him older Penske models (2 way) weren't nearly as adj as the new 2 way adj model. It was $200 (normally $400) to add the 3 way and frankly if I was a good enough rider and tuner to use it' I would have opted for the 3 way.

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post #30 of 66 Old 12-12-2009, 08:12 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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A bit more that I forgot to add in.
$ 1650 is an excellent price for what is being done and supplied, to say nothing of knowing you are dealing with a top shelf outfit. You can not go wrong dealing with Traxxion, and I'll bet their initial settings will please you, as long as you have been honest and accurate on your weight, tires and how you will be riding it. Don't be surprised if your rear spring collar is within 1/4 turn of where it needs to be for their target sag number. I wonder if rabbott is getting a 2 or 3 way Penske. Penske also uses the same main shock body for the Triumph Tiger 1050, which is a link type rear using about half the spring rate and needs less damping force. I bought my Penske as a 2 way, and the low speed damping (this IS the cause of the rear end pogo and oscillation you read about and hear about) was way too light and there was no way to adjust it. I ended up getting my 2 way converted to a 3 way, as well has having it tested on a shock dyno.
I'm always impressed by someone analyzes things to such detail and then refines a process to acheive such repeatability. Good on ya!

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post #31 of 66 Old 12-12-2009, 08:57 AM
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Dan is being very open and informative with you, which is exactly what you want.
Your base shock is surely going to be a 8900 Series that has the 8900 Rebound Adjuster built into the bottom of the main shock unit. Old 2 way 8900s came with a 8981 external Hi Speed Compression adjuster that had only 6 "clicks" and really wasn't that good a unit in terms of damping curves in general - so I'm told. Later 2 ways came with 8986 external unit, which is what mine came with 2 years ago. The manual had a super big mistake in it. The manual said full soft was when the adjuster was turned in to the body, which is the opposite of what is correct ! I don't know what unit you are getting or if the manual has been corrected, anyway, a word of warning from my experience of tearing my hair out as the bike got softer as I thought I was adjusting it harder ! (by the way, the manual mistake comes from the fact that on 3 ways, the high speed compression adjustment is full soft when the adjuster is fully turned in to the body). Back to my experience with the 8986. The manual said there were 22 clicks. They were almost impossible to feel, and I never detected anything like 22. I lightly wound it in full, then backed it out full, and counted 5 1/3 turns of the adjuster. There are 6 flats on the head of the adjuster, so I called it 32 "clicks" and just counted how many flats I had used. Because of the inadequate low speed compression damping my unit had, the only way I could compensate was by cranking in the hi speed compression adjuster. I ended up using 4 clicks out from full hard, and it rode like a truck over sharp bumps on the street. On the track it was harsh but handled better overall and I went quicker. With mid point settings and my not heavy wife on the back, the rear end would yo yo at the slightest thing, and fully stroke and hit the snubber. Which is why I got my unit reworked this year.

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post #32 of 66 Old 12-12-2009, 09:43 AM
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Dan is being very open and informative with you, which is exactly what you want.
Your base shock is surely going to be a 8900 Series that has the 8900 Rebound Adjuster built into the bottom of the main shock unit. Old 2 way 8900s came with a 8981 external Hi Speed Compression adjuster that had only 6 "clicks" and really wasn't that good a unit in terms of damping curves in general - so I'm told. Later 2 ways came with 8986 external unit, which is what mine came with 2 years ago. The manual had a super big mistake in it. The manual said full soft was when the adjuster was turned in to the body, which is the opposite of what is correct ! I don't know what unit you are getting or if the manual has been corrected, anyway, a word of warning from my experience of tearing my hair out as the bike got softer as I thought I was adjusting it harder ! (by the way, the manual mistake comes from the fact that on 3 ways, the high speed compression adjustment is full soft when the adjuster is fully turned in to the body). Back to my experience with the 8986. The manual said there were 22 clicks. They were almost impossible to feel, and I never detected anything like 22. I lightly wound it in full, then backed it out full, and counted 5 1/3 turns of the adjuster. There are 6 flats on the head of the adjuster, so I called it 32 "clicks" and just counted how many flats I had used. Because of the inadequate low speed compression damping my unit had, the only way I could compensate was by cranking in the hi speed compression adjuster. I ended up using 4 clicks out from full hard, and it rode like a truck over sharp bumps on the street. On the track it was harsh but handled better overall and I went quicker. With mid point settings and my not heavy wife on the back, the rear end would yo yo at the slightest thing, and fully stroke and hit the snubber. Which is why I got my unit reworked this year.
I made it about 3 words in, again. I can tell you my double clicker Penske works really, really good and I haven't touched it in about 2 1/2 years.

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post #33 of 66 Old 12-12-2009, 09:50 AM
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I haven't touched it in about 2 1/2 years.
thats not what i heard........... ........

*(sorry ya'll ... too easy.... as you were... carry on)



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post #34 of 66 Old 12-12-2009, 09:57 AM
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thats not what i heard........... ........

*(sorry ya'll ... too easy.... as you were... carry on)
Hey, if you want, I could have my wife take a picture of it while she is taking pictures of the WR250, I'm not sure if that would prove it to you or not. You are talking about my Penske, right.

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post #35 of 66 Old 12-12-2009, 10:03 AM
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Hey, if you want, I could have my wife take a picture of it while she is taking pictures of the WR250, I'm not sure if that would prove it to you or not. You are talking about my Penske, right.
i wanna see photos of that wr250x........ i don't wanna see you penske *(or whatever you named it )



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post #36 of 66 Old 12-13-2009, 09:13 AM
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rabbott, thanks and if Traxxion suggests 10-11 mm of Free Sag (which is their track use approach) I think you will have to lengthen your shock a bit. Ask and I'll give you my settings. Also. Traxxion has an excellent 2 DVD set called Suspension for Mortals. They still have the old booklets as well. I have both, and suggest you ask them to stuff them into the box of goodies you are soon to get.

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post #37 of 66 Old 12-13-2009, 09:14 AM
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sike, I know you are watching. I managed to get it in three lines. I just can't do it in three words.

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post #38 of 66 Old 12-13-2009, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
rabbott, thanks and if Traxxion suggests 10-11 mm of Free Sag (which is their track use approach) I think you will have to lengthen your shock a bit. Ask and I'll give you my settings. Also. Traxxion has an excellent 2 DVD set called Suspension for Mortals. They still have the old booklets as well. I have both, and suggest you ask them to stuff them into the box of goodies you are soon to get.
Thanks I'll ask for all the "goodies"

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post #39 of 66 Old 12-13-2009, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
sike, I know you are watching. I managed to get it in three lines. I just can't do it in three words.
Thanks, because my attention span was able to follow three sentences.

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post #40 of 66 Old 12-15-2009, 03:22 PM
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mcromo. What you said made sence. Why there is so much stickion. Who knows. I never got to picky with my 919 set ups to even notice if there was much sticksion. I got it in the ball park and turned some stuff here and there till I liked it. Which is all anyone does anyway. The big difference is after you like it, measuring it with crazy analretenativness so you know where the bike is for that particular track (road) that makes you happy with the set up.

02 919 (RIP)
07 600RR
07 CRF450X
81 XS850
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