Tires.....is bigger better? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 31 Old 06-17-2007, 12:41 AM Thread Starter
 
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Tires.....is bigger better?

I ride an 02' 919 Matte in color. Here is my question.... My bike came stock with a 180 back tire. I had it rplaced with a 190 just for looks. I ride pretty hard and often scrape boots and pegs, how if any has this changed the handling of the bike? I also heard thet came out with a 120/65 front to replace the stock 120/70. Would this not shorten the sidewall creating a tighter circumfrence and maybe get the front end to turn in faster instead of trying to push? Does anyone have any experience playing with tire sizing?



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post #2 of 31 Old 06-17-2007, 06:49 AM
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Unless you want to tuck the front, do not change your front tire to a 120/65. You will have effectively lessened your contact patch when leaned over.

As for the rear, what size rim is the 919 rear? If it is a 5.5" rim, then a 180 rear will offer the best fit, and the best profile for turn-in. Wedging a 190 on it will only make the condition worse, and your turning will most likely suffer.

If the rear is a 6" rim, spoon a 190/50, or 190/55 on it to offer the best turn-in with the most contact patch. The advantages of a 190/50 are wider contact patch, with a little slower tip-in than a 180/55. You get the best of both worlds with a 190/55, or even a 190/60, but you may have to alter your rear ride height to compensate with a taller tire.

Take a look at the Pirelli Corsa III dual compound for the 190/55.

And, yeah, i'm gonna say it. Stop pushing so hard on the street, take it toa track, and push the bike and yourself to the limits in a controlled environment. Too many variables on the street to be going that fast.

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post #3 of 31 Old 06-17-2007, 07:08 AM
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A 190 increases you pu$$y strips.
A 120/65 has come stock on R6s. The first thing people do - go to a 120/70. Sidewall offers some 'suspension' when the bike is leaned over. Extra grip = more confidence = more speed.

Bad body position/technique scrapes pegs & boots - not bad choice in tires.

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post #4 of 31 Old 06-17-2007, 08:02 AM
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Bigger is always better, especially with motorcycles.


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post #5 of 31 Old 06-17-2007, 08:58 AM
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Go back to the stock sizes.Get used to the bike,Then if you still have an issue look for answers in diff tire brands,then sizes.

919.org has a Great read on tires.(under Mods) Tires and what you should Know.There also is a short write up on the 120/65-17 swap

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post #6 of 31 Old 06-20-2007, 04:46 AM
 
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Go back to stock sized tires. Get a set of Pilot Powers. Great turn in, and plenty of traction for aggressive riding.

Start working on your body position. The 919 has good ground clearance, if your draggin parts on a regular basis, you need to move your body more.

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post #7 of 31 Old 06-20-2007, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudarra View Post
Go back to stock sized tires. Get a set of Pilot Powers. Great turn in, and plenty of traction for aggressive riding.
Just make sure the Pilot Powers do not have these markings on the sidewall.

* a "Made in France" label
* DOT 6UCW 980T or DOT 6UCW 979T

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post #8 of 31 Old 06-20-2007, 06:53 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Just make sure the Pilot Powers do not have these markings on the sidewall.

* a "Made in France" label
* DOT 6UCW 980T or DOT 6UCW 979T
yep!

Look for ones that say "Made in Spain". Those aren't affected by the recall.

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post #9 of 31 Old 06-20-2007, 07:01 AM
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Man. I don't want to explain this again so I'll just say... A wider tire on that wide of a wheel will throw off the dimensions of the tire and you will have worse traction/turn-in than a 180/55.

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post #10 of 31 Old 06-20-2007, 07:14 AM
 
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Do you know what a balloon looks like? that is all you did to your rear tire when you went from the 180 to the 190. Well, that's not entirely true... you also pissed away about 30 bucks more for the tire.

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post #11 of 31 Old 06-20-2007, 09:48 AM
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I'd would recommend getting a rear tire kit with a widened swingarm and 300 tire. Now that's cool!

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post #12 of 31 Old 06-20-2007, 11:37 AM
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Don't let these clowns scare ya. Although the 919 comes with a 5.5" rim and the ideal width for a 190 is a 6".. it is perfectly safe mounted on a 5.5" The rim size range for a 190 is 5.5" - 6.0". Sounds like you know this already. Yeah turn in is slower but so what? Blah blah blah. Get tired of all the lock step pu$$ys sometimes! Go do what ya want and who the frick cares what us clowns over on WT say?

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tires.... it's what's for dinner!
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post #13 of 31 Old 06-20-2007, 11:46 AM
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Apparently you guys didn't hear about the guy that put a 190 tire on a 5.5" rim. 3 weeks after he put the 190 on he got Herpes.

Best to learn from others mistakes.

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post #14 of 31 Old 06-20-2007, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragdoll View Post
Apparently you guys didn't hear about the guy that put a 190 tire on a 5.5" rim. 3 weeks after he put the 190 on he got Herpes.

Best to learn from others mistakes.
Herpes? I'm not even bald yet.

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post #15 of 31 Old 06-21-2007, 11:40 AM
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Stick with the 180/55 on the rear of the 919 it is way more than ample for any type of riding from getting groceries to balls out on the track.

The 120/65 works great on the street & even better when riding with a passenger, but for track use I prefer going back to the 120/70 for an additional margin safety at high lean angles.

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post #16 of 31 Old 06-21-2007, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Just make sure the Pilot Powers do not have these markings on the sidewall.

* a "Made in France" label
* DOT 6UCW 980T or DOT 6UCW 979T
What recall?

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post #17 of 31 Old 06-21-2007, 01:39 PM
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What you been sleepin in a box under a bridge for the last 2 weeks?

Michelin recalled the Made in France 120/70 Pilot Power front & Pilot Power 2CT's that have the numbers above on them.


Any other makes or models of Michelin tires are not subject to the recall.

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post #18 of 31 Old 06-21-2007, 03:16 PM
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I've got the French crap!

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post #19 of 31 Old 06-21-2007, 05:54 PM
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I did a 190 for my second rear change..... Never got to push it to hard, It seemed ok.....just has a nice wide commuter strip now. Going back to the 180 this fall.

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post #20 of 31 Old 06-22-2007, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
What you been sleepin in a box under a bridge for the last 2 weeks?

Michelin recalled the Made in France 120/70 Pilot Power front & Pilot Power 2CT's that have the numbers above on them.


Any other makes or models of Michelin tires are not subject to the recall.
No need to get testy! I just read an article from the AP dated today about recalling 19924 tires. Anyway I got the ones made in Spain. I got them last year from Tireexpress.com. The rider, who recommended them to me ordered a set 3 weeks before I got mine, he got the French crap.

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post #21 of 31 Old 06-23-2007, 12:28 AM
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Tire Selection

The shape of the tire profile for a given section ratio is decided by each tire manufacturer as they balance wear, traction, tread design, stability and handling design objectives for a generic bike type. Often they will design a tire variation intended for use only on a particular make and model bike.

The size of the tire is decided on by each bike manufacturer in development testing, so the recommended street tire sizes will not necessarily be optimum for the race track. Or vice versa.

It's also important to remember that each bike manufacturer develops their suspension system components in combination with the tires that they ship with the bike, so be cautious when you consider switching to tires that test well on a different brand of motorcycle. When you bought your bike, you paid for a lot of development and testing costs, so think carefully about whose advice to take when making changes. A lot will come down to individual riding styles and rider preferences. Be critically honest about your own riding capabilities and needs.

Finally, if you choose to modify your bike you may also need to reconsider your tire needs. More horsepower usually means a larger tire is needed. Changes to suspension settings will also be beneficial so be prepared for some design development of your own.

With that said, here are some specifics.
In order to get the correct tire profile, the recommended street tire size for 5.5 inch rims specified by the tire manufacturers is 180/55 and for 6.0 inch rims it's 190/50.

The outside diameter of both size tires is the same so a switch won't require a rear ride height adjustment. The important difference is that the
180 is a 55 section meaning that it's height is 55% of the width cross-section. The 190 is 50% of it's width. This means that the 55-section
tire has a steeper profile, it's taller.

When you mount a 190 tire onto a 5.5 inch rim it's profile becomes slightly incorrect. The too-narrow rim forces the tire's outer edges inward into a tighter curve so that you can't use this part of the tire effectively. A correct tire profile creates a correctly-shaped road contact patch essential to optimum handling, better sidewall stability with less tire flex and, and better overall tire wear.

Switching from the 190/50 to the 180/55 gives a very noticeable change in cornering feel. The 180's, mainly because of their taller, steeper profile, turn-in much quicker and easier.

Keep in mind that, as any street tire wears, the center section wears down more rapidly than the sides, so a 55 section tire will drop to an equivalent 50 section over the life of the tire. Consequently, the turn-in handling gets sluggish as the tire looses profile. This partially explains the rejuvenating effect that a new set of tires will have on a bike's handling,
and will give you an idea as to the magnitude of the effect of switching to a taller section tire.

A 180 tire is also slightly lighter. This will account for part of the subjective handling improvement experienced when moving from a 190 section tire. The weight difference between brands is greater, especially for the front tire. For example, 120/70 front Pirelli Supercorsa's (8 lbs. 6 oz.) Dunlop D2O7RR (10 lbs 7 oz.) A 2 pound lighter tire will, for example, reduce rotational inertia by the same order of magnitude that you get when switching from an aluminum to a magnesium wheel.

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post #22 of 31 Old 06-26-2007, 08:08 AM
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I've been thinkin about the above post for a few days now & while it is largely correct there are some facts being distorted & some things that are just plain wrong.

It is important to understand there are way more than just two choices of either 180/55's & 190/50's on the market. We have 190/55 & 190/60 tires readily available now & other even larger sizes as well. It is also important to know that even though manufacturers may label their tires as 180mm they are usually not that exact size from model to model & especially from brand to brand.

http://www.919.org/tires.htm

The idea that the factories put a lot of time & testing into their suspension for their OEM tire fitment is kinda silly. First off the big 4 factories use a checklist in a boardroom to decide on the price they are willing to spend on the bikes suspension & work down from there based on whether they want to pay the extra dollars for damping adjustments, preload, USD etc... Stock suspension is crap. Only in the last couple years have we even started seeing OEM suspension pieces that were capable of setting sag for solo riding (new R6, 06 GSXR750 & the 07 600RR). Trust me the factories aren't fine tuning their suspension to their tire choices. They are following a formula for weight of the rider(s).

Second every manufacturer has at least 2 different fitments of OEM tires both with their own unique characteristics, but the suspension DOES not change.

BTW the OEM fitment versions of DOT street tires are usually heavier & more sluggish for turn-in & more expensive than the true aftermarket variant of that same tire.


Quote:
More HP means more tire
Why? The vast majority of the street bikes on the road aren't using the OEM tires to their potential so why do we need to go bigger again? This seems like more of a personal opinion than any type of fact. Back in the day a lot of the British race teams running the 900RR/Fireblade which is so closely based on this 919 swingarm actually dropped to a 170 tire to aid in handling even though their race motors were putting out 40-50 more hp than the road going version of the bike.

Quote:
With that said, here are some specifics.
In order to get the correct tire profile, the recommended street tire size for 5.5 inch rims specified by the tire manufacturers is 180/55 and for 6.0 inch rims it's 190/50.
You do realize that the manufacturers are now installing 190/55 tires on 6" rims right? That kinda blows your entire statement right out of the water. Furthermore for years the only race tires available for the 6" rims were 180/55's so that doubles the strikes against your claim instantly. Are you really wrong, not really, it was always taken as fact that this was the only suitable sizes for specific size rims when in truth there are way more ways to skin that cat. It's kinda like the guys that think they are supposed to run maximum pressures of 42psi in the rear & 36psi in the front tire ALL THE TIME because the manufacturer said so when in truth moderately lower tire pressures give the bike a better ride with more compliance allowing the sidewall to work as part of the suspension & more available grip from the tires from not only a better heat range, but a larger contact patch as well.

More importantly though, racers are now mounting 190/55's & 190/60's on 5.5" 600cc rims & are consistently dropping their lap times 1-2 seconds over the same compound 180/55's. This speaks volumes about the potential of the higher profile tires.


Back to reality & in direct regards to the 919 I can pretty much assure you that a 180/55 tire will do everything you could ever ask from it and seeing as how the adjustment of the 919 suspension is so limited anyway, it is the best overall choice for tire size requiring the least amount of compromise or fiddling with the geometry.


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post #23 of 31 Old 06-26-2007, 08:27 AM
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I have to agree 100% with Duck hUnt

I actually run a 190/55 on my 600 for racing. Not because I felt I needed it, but because I found a great supply of them for a GREATER price! But the larger contact patch does seem to really help corner drive without sacrificing handling.

+ $5

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post #24 of 31 Old 06-26-2007, 08:38 AM
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Race bike.


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post #25 of 31 Old 06-26-2007, 08:50 AM
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I really wish I had a chance to try out a 190/55 at my trackday. The dealer ordered a set of the Corsa III's but they arrived as Supercorsa's in a Supersoft compound. I stuck with the Corsa III.

My point you may ask? Is this; I ran the 190/50 yesterday at a very good pace all day. Set my pressure first thing in the morning according to the Pirelli guys at the track (31/30), and off I went. I used all but 1/16 of an inch on either side of the tire, and dragged knee everywhere possible. The bike was previously fitted with 180/55 Dulops, and although they turned in well, they were not inspiring to my confidence. I was initially worried about the switch to a 190/50, but it worked out well for me. I will still switch to a 190/55 on my next set, and report back on my experience.

If you want to experience a trackday, i'll be more than happy to help you out, and attend. Maybe Roebling Road, or Road Atlanta since those are closest to you.

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post #26 of 31 Old 06-26-2007, 09:18 AM
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Let me break it down to plain Engrish

Here's what I have learned in my humble and limited experience of riding bikes and listening to other talk and talk and talk...

1.) (180/55) The guy who runs the manufactures original tire size because he could care less rear aesthetics and loves the sport could probably feel the difference in handling/cornering.

2.) (190/50) The guy who cares about rear aesthetics and thinks about making the change could probably not feel the difference in handling/cornering.

Therefore I say "Go for it, if that's what you want"!

I've just started to learn to push my bike to the edge of the 180/55 and have become too superstitious to change now. 180 seems to grip ample for both my bikes. Of course the 190 do look pretty cool.

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post #27 of 31 Old 07-14-2007, 02:31 PM
 
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This clown is real piece of work...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
I've been thinkin about the above post for a few days now & while it is largely correct there are some facts being distorted & some things that are just plain wrong.

It is important to understand there are way more than just two choices of either 180/55's & 190/50's on the market. We have 190/55 & 190/60 tires readily available now & other even larger sizes as well. It is also important to know that even though manufacturers may label their tires as 180mm they are usually not that exact size from model to model & especially from brand to brand.

http://www.919.org/tires.htm

The idea that the factories put a lot of time & testing into their suspension for their OEM tire fitment is kinda silly. First off the big 4 factories use a checklist in a boardroom to decide on the price they are willing to spend on the bikes suspension & work down from there based on whether they want to pay the extra dollars for damping adjustments, preload, USD etc... Stock suspension is crap. Only in the last couple years have we even started seeing OEM suspension pieces that were capable of setting sag for solo riding (new R6, 06 GSXR750 & the 07 600RR). Trust me the factories aren't fine tuning their suspension to their tire choices. They are following a formula for weight of the rider(s).

Second every manufacturer has at least 2 different fitments of OEM tires both with their own unique characteristics, but the suspension DOES not change.

BTW the OEM fitment versions of DOT street tires are usually heavier & more sluggish for turn-in & more expensive than the true aftermarket variant of that same tire.


Why? The vast majority of the street bikes on the road aren't using the OEM tires to their potential so why do we need to go bigger again? This seems like more of a personal opinion than any type of fact. Back in the day a lot of the British race teams running the 900RR/Fireblade which is so closely based on this 919 swingarm actually dropped to a 170 tire to aid in handling even though their race motors were putting out 40-50 more hp than the road going version of the bike.

You do realize that the manufacturers are now installing 190/55 tires on 6" rims right? That kinda blows your entire statement right out of the water. Furthermore for years the only race tires available for the 6" rims were 180/55's so that doubles the strikes against your claim instantly. Are you really wrong, not really, it was always taken as fact that this was the only suitable sizes for specific size rims when in truth there are way more ways to skin that cat. It's kinda like the guys that think they are supposed to run maximum pressures of 42psi in the rear & 36psi in the front tire ALL THE TIME because the manufacturer said so when in truth moderately lower tire pressures give the bike a better ride with more compliance allowing the sidewall to work as part of the suspension & more available grip from the tires from not only a better heat range, but a larger contact patch as well.

More importantly though, racers are now mounting 190/55's & 190/60's on 5.5" 600cc rims & are consistently dropping their lap times 1-2 seconds over the same compound 180/55's. This speaks volumes about the potential of the higher profile tires.


Back to reality & in direct regards to the 919 I can pretty much assure you that a 180/55 tire will do everything you could ever ask from it and seeing as how the adjustment of the 919 suspension is so limited anyway, it is the best overall choice for tire size requiring the least amount of compromise or fiddling with the geometry.

...

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post #28 of 31 Old 07-15-2007, 10:46 AM
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Just in case it matters to anyone, a 180 Conti Road Attack is slightly less wide than a 180 Michelin.

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post #29 of 31 Old 08-05-2007, 08:27 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thanks for all the input. Everyone is very versed in the subject huh?! Well, I went back with a 180/55 and could tell a considerable difference immediatly. I also noticed that with the 190/50 I could not get to full lean angle, but with the 180's I had scrubbed the Michilin man and directional arrows off by my second ride in the twisties.

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post #30 of 31 Old 08-05-2007, 09:45 PM
 
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I think it is more a matter of priorities ,if looks are very important then a 190 is a reasonable choice but if you are a hardcore rider then definitly stay with the 180. If cruiser riders can get around a corner with a 250 then a 190 should not be that bad.

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post #31 of 31 Old 08-06-2007, 05:16 AM
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cruiser riders dont lean though. well around here. i got stuck behind about 40 of them yesterday 45mpg and slowed down for corners, so they did not have to lean

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