Tinman's got a Heart - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 52 Old 06-01-2010, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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Tinman's got a Heart

got the 945 mill back in the Tinman this weekend. first, like an idiot, i tried mounting the f.i. and nitrous systems up before install. so in other words, i pulled them back off again to install the engine. i tried and didn't like the floor jack method, so i removed the front wheel and dropped the frame lower. then i rotated the engine rearward and balanced it on the rear edge of the oil pan on a piece of plywood. i slid that in from the right side and rotated the engine down into position. while straddling the bike, i picked the engine up while my girlfriend slid a bolt into each of the rear lower mounts. from there it was pretty easy to just jockey and scooch the lump around and get all the mounts into place. once loosely mounted, i hiked the frame back up in the air, mounted the front tire again, and put a floor jack under the mill to loosen and then retighten all the mounts with the engine suspended. don't know if that will help, but i reckon the engine will be likely more "centered" in the frame by this method.

nowthen, i'm installing the clutch basket. i've got it slid into place and i have to decide if i believe that it's fully engaged with the oil pump drive sprocket tabs or not. again, like with the cam timing, i find the shop manual to be annoyingly vague. in fact, it entirely leaves out a shouldered collar that i had to go to Ron Ayers' microfiche to confirm placement. that's B.S. Honda !

so if anyone has GREAT quality pix of the fit between the crankshaft drive gears and the clutch basket driven gear, i'd be much obliged if you'd share them. perhaps some that were snapped during a clutch re-do?
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post #2 of 52 Old 06-01-2010, 10:57 AM
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Nice to her its coming along fine....i too was not impressed with how the clutch basket went in, but its working fine now so i must have done something right

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post #3 of 52 Old 06-01-2010, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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woodyeee, specifically, are you speaking to the installed depth of the basket? the manual says make SURE the outer face of the drive and driven gears are flush, but i would say there's approx. a 16th of difference...the clutch or driven gear sits "out" a 16th more than the spring loaded drive gear. however, both of the drive gears of the crank (the main gear AND the spring loaded compensatory gear) are seated on the driven, or clutch basket gear. so neither of the drive gears are "unsupported" in the least.

how did you deal with the matching of oil pump drive gear tabs to the backside of the clutch basket? set 'em up at 12 o'clock and trysie?

i HATE doing stuff i've never done before when the literature is so vague. like i'm going to uncork 200 hp between my legs when i have doubt over the clutch !

and yet, most of this rebuild is unknown territory for me.
so, do i just run it and wear some cookware over my junk?

what's the latest with your project Woodyeee?

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post #4 of 52 Old 06-01-2010, 11:46 AM
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The BIG gear on the clutch basket which lines up with the two gears on the crank was a mystery to me as its the first time i had seen that setup before.....But once i could get it to go all the way back i looked at the honda manual and realised you had to use a screwdriver to align the gears!!!
The clutch basket seemed to slide back onto the oil pump drive sprocket fairly easy....so easy in fact i had to fit it a couple of times as i thought it hadnt gone in!!
My project is running fine at 8psi at the moment....i had it back on the dyno to sort out the fueling at low rpm's as it wouldnt idle properly and kept fouling the plugs...I have had quite a few problems with it and i have just sorted the clutch out as it was slipping even though it has uprated plates and springs.....i have about 700 miles on it so far i think and i will be touring Scotland this weekend on it

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post #5 of 52 Old 06-01-2010, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
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i wonder how those notoriously weak (for a honda product, or at least for a 919 component) fuel pressure regulators like having their diaphragm pushed AND pulled !

which makes me wonder, how good are all those vac lines at staying attached under pressure? best of luck to you. i thought long and hard about trying to turbo before i went nitrous.

didn't it look to you like the "male and female" parts of that oil pump drive sprocket vs. the backside of the clutch basket would fight like holy hell going together? it looks like if it isn't aligned PERFECTLY it would't engage, but i too tried it a couple times so i could be .... less unsure... and i was able to reach behind the basket and see that the oil pump wouldn't spin freely: it was engaged to the clutch basket. but i've had a night of tossing and turning, wondering if it's not just a "squeeze fit" as opposed to tab A being fully seated in slot B, so to speak. i don't know. i guess i'll give it a stern looking-at tonight. i hate to ruin a brand new clutch nut and "un stake" and remove it. not that it's expensive, but unless i reuse (which the manual says not to) i'll have another week or more delay waiting on the nut.

but i'd hate even more to have the oil pump stop working at 140 mph.

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post #6 of 52 Old 06-01-2010, 12:06 PM
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I'm sure it will be fine...i too made sure the oil pump would spin with the clutch basket fitted........at least if its not right its not full engine strip and rebuild....unless it goes bang in an expensive way
I didnt replace the clutch basket nut....it does say replace all sorts of shit which mostly i did but some stuff aint necessary

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post #7 of 52 Old 06-01-2010, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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if it goes "bang" , i'm going to march over to the honda store and get a cbr1000. 9.5's at 150 mph in the latest magazine tests. with some swingarm extenders, even I could get times similar to that.

hah. just noted, if the Tinman goes bang at 140mph, i may not be doing ANY marching for quite some time !

and clarification: you "made sure the oil pump would NOT spin with the clutch basket fitted", right?

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post #8 of 52 Old 06-10-2010, 10:28 AM
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Update?

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post #9 of 52 Old 06-10-2010, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
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if it goes "bang" , i'm going to march over to the honda store and get a cbr1000. 9.5's at 150 mph in the latest magazine tests. with some swingarm extenders, even I could get times similar to that.

hah. just noted, if the Tinman goes bang at 140mph, i may not be doing ANY marching for quite some time !

and clarification: you "made sure the oil pump would NOT spin with the clutch basket fitted", right?
I think what i meant was that it drove the oil pump chain when it was fitted

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post #10 of 52 Old 06-10-2010, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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as of last night: engine is in, f.i./airbox/nitrous system (back) in place. (it's been in and out 3 times since the engine went back in) i chucked a socket to my cordless drill and spun the crank via the right side case cover porthole to circulate oil. header is mounted. plugs installed and coils in place, though need wiring connected (a little more complicated with Dynojet ignition module wiring...now where did i leave the manual for that long ago before disassembly? )

need radiator and hoses installed (though i'll probably fire it up and let it run for 5 seconds ...if it WILL fire up...before i wrap up cooling system) and some other finishing touches like c/shaft sprocket/cover, battery install, gas tank/fuel/vent hoses.

so....this weekend i guess? i bought 3 gallons of gas in a jug last night. assuming i haven't screwed something major up, and there have been a shit-ton of opportunities for me to do so.

to say that after approx. 2 years of down time i am anxious to fire it up and ride is a gross understatement. i've got a lot of money, time, blood, and soul into this pup. to reiterate, trying to get this bike into the nines in the quarter is part of a plan to pay homage to my late dad. i sure hope he's as patient as he always was with me !

thanks for clarifying Woodyeee...what's the latest with yours? tripping across Scotland, was it?

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post #11 of 52 Old 06-10-2010, 12:09 PM
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post #12 of 52 Old 06-10-2010, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
thanks for clarifying Woodyeee...what's the latest with yours? tripping across Scotland, was it?
Ive done over a 1000 miles now since rebuild and yes we were in Scotland at the weekend....Ive still got a couple of issues i need to sort out. The clutch has started slipping even though i have uprated plates and springs
What clutch are you running?

I did a little video of a rideout. This video was on the way to the road that i wanted to do, so its a bit tame.... it also started to rain so i turned around and went back. Anyway see what you think.
YouTube - thornhill to aberfoyle

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/woodyeee/IMAG0306.jpg
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post #13 of 52 Old 06-10-2010, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyeee View Post
Ive done over a 1000 miles now since rebuild and yes we were in Scotland at the weekend....Ive still got a couple of issues i need to sort out. The clutch has started slipping even though i have uprated plates and springs
What clutch are you running?

I did a little video of a rideout. This video was on the way to the road that i wanted to do, so its a bit tame.... it also started to rain so i turned around and went back. Anyway see what you think.
YouTube - thornhill to aberfoyle
great video... but those roads are in horrible condition..... they need paving big time....

but thanks for showing us people driving on the wrong side of the road....lol...



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post #14 of 52 Old 06-10-2010, 04:50 PM
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Great video, I'll never bitch about the road conditions around here again!

"Bucky", looking forward to reading how your 919 does.

Hope those nines come sooner rather than later.

Worst case, buy the CBR1000 and transplant the engine in your Hornet!

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post #15 of 52 Old 06-10-2010, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
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Great video, I'll never bitch about the road conditions around here again!

"Bucky", looking forward to reading how your 919 does.

Hope those nines come sooner rather than later.

Worst case, buy the CBR1000 and transplant the engine in your Hornet!
that would be cheating!

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post #16 of 52 Old 06-10-2010, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyeee View Post
I did a little video of a rideout. This video was on the way to the road that i wanted to do, so its a bit tame.... it also started to rain so i turned around and went back. Anyway see what you think.
YouTube - thornhill to aberfoyle
I like videos where the speedo is in the bottom of the screen, makes it easier to get a feel of the ride. Those little bumps are crazy, really fun to always pull the front end up on them, except when you are actually trying to go fast and you have to let out.

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post #17 of 52 Old 06-11-2010, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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i run stock honda clutch and springs...with one of these.

MRE Lockup Clutch Kits

i believe you're going to get clutch slip no matter what parts you run unless you put centrifugal force to work for you. or turn down the boost. but the way in which nitrous INSTANTLY throws torque into the clutch may make it harder to contain than the second of ramp up time that you get with a turbo.

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post #18 of 52 Old 06-14-2010, 09:57 AM Thread Starter
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it is...alive. The Tinman fired on Saturday, albeit a little roughly. who KNOWS what map is in the PC III after nearly 2 years of no battery connected. and whether that map would complement an overbore, compression increase, porting, and cams. so yesterday i fiddled with a few different maps. got it to start easier than it ever did before the rebuild! but he's still a little punky, so i'll play with some more maps.

took it out yesterday though. sneaked out through the back roads of my neighborhood then got on the big road for a quick blast through the gears. got on it pretty hard. everything works. i'll run it a couple more times and change in the Maxxum synth.

going to try to find a new battery for him in town as well as one for El Civico, my bike hauler. that battery is the original in a 1999. Should have no problem getting to Alaska Raceway Park for some test and tune next weekend, weather permitting. can't wait for my first burnout. i think i'll run it on motor only this weekend, and maybe fill the nitrous bottles for the next outing.

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post #19 of 52 Old 06-14-2010, 04:03 PM
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Sounds like a very smart plan Bucky, this obviously is not your first rodeo!

May the nines be with you

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post #20 of 52 Old 06-14-2010, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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thanks FJ !
not my first rodeo, but my first bottom end motorcycle rebuild, my first 4 cylinder motorcycle engine repair period. so with any progress or positivity i've gotten, along comes doubt and self mistrust as part of a package deal. i'm semi-secretly hoping to see some VERY low 10's off the bottle. my previous best with a bone stock motor (besides header) is 10.76, so with the aforementioned mods, hopefully a 10.2 or so isn't crazily out of the question. can't you just see the torrential downpour at Ak Raceway Park this coming sunday, with bucky splashing around the parking lot ruining his leathers?

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post #21 of 52 Old 06-14-2010, 08:03 PM
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I think I'm gonna get a tinman tattoo.

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post #22 of 52 Old 06-15-2010, 06:34 AM
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I can hardly wait to see what times you run now. Is it tinman II now? Good luck!

Spoiler:

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post #23 of 52 Old 06-15-2010, 07:28 AM
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Bucky...Good job on getting it running, I know how proud you must feel. i'm just a little curious as to how your going to run it in? Please take it easy at first!!! Because i was always waiting for the big bang when i first rebuilt my engine as i thought that i may have forgot to do something right!

When i first set my clutch up it never slipped...it seems that once it gets a little wear it starts to slip

BWOSO....i only just got the cam before i did the video so ive not had time to play with it yet.....but if you ever get pulled by the cops and they see the cam with the speed on it...Oh I will still post one later though

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post #24 of 52 Old 06-15-2010, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
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thanks all.
wood, i've started it and heat cycled it about 5 times. letting coolant burp, giving wayward gaskets a chance to leak if they are gonna. looking for trouble, listening for noise. blipping throttle from a high idle of around 2200 rpms to 5-6,000 but not maniacally. i took it for 2 slow 5 minute rides poking through the hood then two wimpy "quarter mile passes" on the big road, up to about 8,000 in 2nd and 6,500 in 3rd, roughly. i'll do the same basic thing again i think, but that's about it. i'll change the oil and i guess i really have to schedule some dyno runs/mapping. i'll try to squeeze that in before Sunday's racing. maybe take a half day from work later this week for dyno.
what i'm saying is, most of my break-in is done. i don't really believe in running them in too gently. i used moly on everything, the engine is quiet, it runs strong and did most of redline. i mean, with how loose i set my ring gaps (due to running a 100-shot of juice) this engine will PROBABLY always be an oil burner anyway.

but am i just WAITING to hear ONE big BANG? every SECOND that i've run it, yes.

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post #25 of 52 Old 06-15-2010, 09:45 AM
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Heh. wayward gaskets. don't I know THAT tune.

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post #26 of 52 Old 06-15-2010, 09:53 AM
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Out of curiosity, and off tipic, but what was your setup when your ran the 10.7 on a stock motor?

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post #27 of 52 Old 06-16-2010, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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flapper mod level II : removed that entire portion of the snorkel with a hacksaw. header. PCIII.

other than that? Trac Dynamics 8" over swingarm, lowered approx. 3.5" rear, 2" front.
stock Michelin sport touring tire.

not CERTAIN, but i think i had stock gearing still.

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post #28 of 52 Old 06-18-2010, 06:22 AM
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Did you put a shock back on that thing or are you riding it around hard tail? Also, how horrible is the handling with 8 over stock?

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post #29 of 52 Old 06-18-2010, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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i don't really street ride any more.
no shock...with the nitrous system's fuel pump,regulator, plumbing, and solenoids, there's really no room for it.

also, the bike is too low to really have anything that i'd call "handling".
i think its center of gravity is beneath the road surface.

House of Harley has had the bike for 3 days now. they came and picked it up at the house Tuesday for dyno runs and PCIII mapping.

as i've told a few people, i feel like an expectant father awaiting a call that my wife has gone into labor, and/or exploded all over the delivery room. i've been losing sleep and acting like a 9 year old on christmas morning for 3 days now.

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post #30 of 52 Old 06-18-2010, 12:43 PM
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^ HAHAHHAHA!

Ye of lil faith the 919 motor is pretty bomb proof... but that one HUGE shot of nitrous that lifted you air borne @ 80mph is more than most could handle... im sure your wife... motor will be fine.

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post #31 of 52 Old 06-18-2010, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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yeah, the motors that are "as delivered" are reliable.
this is my first full bike engine rebuild.
non-stock parts from mulitiple aftermarket manufacturers/suppliers that have little documentation and perhaps NO history of "getting along together".
LOTS of ways for this to end in tears still....

as always, i'm not so worried about anything that came out of japan, as much as i'm worried about what some round-eye fool (me) did to it.

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post #32 of 52 Old 06-18-2010, 01:40 PM
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At least you're honest with yourself

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post #33 of 52 Old 06-18-2010, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
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yeah, the motors that are "as delivered" are reliable.
this is my first full bike engine rebuild.
non-stock parts from mulitiple aftermarket manufacturers/suppliers that have little documentation and perhaps NO history of "getting along together".
LOTS of ways for this to end in tears still....

as always, i'm not so worried about anything that came out of japan, as much as i'm worried about what some round-eye fool (me) did to it.
hahahah so very true.... lets just hope you dont get a bad call from your dyno guy... i guarentee your heart will stop tho when you see the number on the phone untill the time he tells you that your bike is ok ahhahahah.

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post #34 of 52 Old 06-18-2010, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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the guy that works for me has several times called me on my cell over the last 3 days. i told him that unless he is House of Harley to stop calling me.

i had the bike up to about 8,000 last weekend, but yes i'm still on pins and needles. will it hold together? what power will it make? will its fussiness in starting and idling cold cause the dyno operator to say, "sorry: we couldn't keep it running well enough to dyno it"? will any NUMBER of things go wrong due to something i've done (or NOT done) after having had it apart for two years?

or will i just receive a call saying, "wow! we really didn't think it was going to make more than 120 hp !" ?

if it holds up well on the dyno and makes good power, indicating that most if not all is going well inside, will i be tempted to throw the colder spark plugs in it and shoot for the nines on fathers day?

or will i ride this emotional roller coaster just to have it rain buckets on Sunday?

my g.f.'s car isn't...my g.f.'s car right now, so i'm committed to renting her a ride for her to come out to the track sunday. there's $175 more that i've got into this w/e. (it's summer in alaska. tourist stuff like car rentals ain't cheap)

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post #35 of 52 Old 06-20-2010, 11:03 AM
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pins and needles man...just hangin on to hear how it goes

15 seconds from talkin sh!t...
panhandling for gas money to CMP
the Project
H87 No Guts No Glory
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post #36 of 52 Old 06-21-2010, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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here's dyno.
the service manager called me saturday to say, "you were right, that rod threw itself out of the cases pretty bad". har dee har har. flipping HI larious.

i didn't build a killer gas burning engine, i tried building a good solid motor against which to spray nitrous. i'm satisfied with the results, but not thrilled. in fact, i had guessed at this exact h.p. number. note that it was still making power when it hit the limiter at 10,200.

so i got it back from dyno saturday and dragged it to the track yesterday. man ! 2 years is a LONG time away from the track! i was surprised that my first launch in test and tune was as close as it was, but i still red-lit with a .007.
more details coming up...
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post #37 of 52 Old 06-21-2010, 11:41 AM
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114 @ the wheel seems pretty respectable to me... although i know you put quite a bit of work in it! maybe some playin with those cam timings! :-P

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post #38 of 52 Old 06-21-2010, 11:48 AM Thread Starter
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the amount of time i put into it simply can't overcome my level of ignorance, but also there's only so much steam you're going to make with the stock tiny valves and throttle bodies. i might find another 5 horsepower if i spent more time experimenting with degreeing and dyno-ing, but every dyno session is just under $300 and represents some real down time, if the latest episode is any example.
the big "tell" in my engine is the head gasket. i added a layer. you don't do that when you're going after big numbers OFF the juice. which i really wasn't.

i'll post my reflections of (and numbers from) yesterday at the track shortly.

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post #39 of 52 Old 06-21-2010, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
the amount of time i put into it simply can't overcome my level of ignorance, but also there's only so much steam you're going to make with the stock tiny valves and throttle bodies. i might find another 5 horsepower if i spent more time experimenting with degreeing and dyno-ing, but every dyno session is just under $300 and represents some real down time, if the latest episode is any example.
the big "tell" in my engine is the head gasket. i added a layer. you don't do that when you're going after big numbers OFF the juice. which i really wasn't.

i'll post my reflections of (and numbers from) yesterday at the track shortly.
cant you run bigger TB's off a RR?

nd4spdbh is offline  
post #40 of 52 Old 06-21-2010, 01:04 PM
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Is that a dynojet dyno or a water break dyno such as a mustang? I'm assuming dynojet.

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