Throttle Body Synchronization - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 35 Old 11-08-2007, 07:39 AM Thread Starter
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Throttle Body Synchronization

Has anyone out there looked into synchronizing the throttle bodies on the 919? My FJR and FZ1 both call for periodic synchronization yet Honda's only reference to it refers to starter enrichment synchronization. The service manual references the screws, but says do not touch. Since I've done the procedure myself on the Yamahas, I have always noticed an improvement (at least in idle quality) after doing it. With 8000 miles on my 919 it should be do for it.

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post #2 of 35 Old 11-08-2007, 07:42 AM
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Chris, Let me know when you want to schedule this procedure. I would like to give you a hand, at the same time we could document(with photos) a nice how-to.

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post #3 of 35 Old 11-08-2007, 10:55 AM
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??

If they have mechanical linkage, then why not? Any thing can vibrate and move a tiny bit! I've not looked yet, do they have vacum ports? This might be a Honda $40 an hour move from the bean counters office.

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post #4 of 35 Old 11-08-2007, 12:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Chris, Let me know when you want to schedule this procedure. I would like to give you a hand, at the same time we could document(with photos) a nice how-to.
Great idea Mike! Before I venture into an unapproved new procedure I want to try and do enough research to see if anyone has any experience in it. I can't imagine any pitfalls, but it would be nice to hear input from others. I would think knowledgable people on the board such as Lord Duckhunter or Robtharalson must have at least contemplated synchronization. Let's see!

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post #5 of 35 Old 11-08-2007, 12:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brokerecord View Post
If they have mechanical linkage, then why not? Any thing can vibrate and move a tiny bit! I've not looked yet, do they have vacum ports? This might be a Honda $40 an hour move from the bean counters office.
There are vacuum ports as they are used to synchronize the starter enrichment circuit.

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post #6 of 35 Old 11-08-2007, 06:37 PM
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+1
I was going to do it. Or at least check it. But I got lazy.

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post #7 of 35 Old 11-09-2007, 06:44 AM Thread Starter
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It's interesting to note that the Yamaha synchronization is accomplished by adjustment of an air screw that the 919 appears to be lacking. Yamaha, like Honda, says don't touch the adjustment screws on the linkage. I do believe that they were some people on the FJR forum that used the linkage adjustments to fine tune synchronization under load on a dyno, but that appears to be a different procedure than the idling adjustment I was looking to do.

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post #8 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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Wow, very little input on this thread. Do the reply posts represent the only people on this board who've pondered synchronization? Has anyone else done research or experimented? We have a lot of tech savy people here; surely someone has some information to share on this issue.

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post #9 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 01:42 PM
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[QUOTE=FJR919;144425]Do the reply posts represent the only people on this board who've pondered synchronization?QUOTE]

I haven't pondered it until reading this thread (I'm a newbie). I'm interested now, but I can't help with the technical side.

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post #10 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brokerecord View Post
$40 an hour
You're lucky, BR. Shop prices here are $75/hr... (wish there was a smiley here of a 9'r getting robbed)

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post #11 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FJR919 View Post
Wow, very little input on this thread. Do the reply posts represent the only people on this board who've pondered synchronization? Has anyone else done research or experimented? We have a lot of tech savy people here; surely someone has some information to share on this issue.
Perhaps ratdog could shed a little light on this subject. He is a walking encyclopedia when it comes to the 919.

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post #12 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 02:31 PM
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[QUOTE=brevity;144426]
Quote:
Originally Posted by FJR919 View Post
Do the reply posts represent the only people on this board who've pondered synchronization?QUOTE]

I haven't pondered it until reading this thread (I'm a newbie). I'm interested now, but I can't help with the technical side.
+1

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post #13 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 02:32 PM
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All four throttle plates are firmly attached to a single shaft -- no possible adjustment there. There are air bypass screws in each throttle body, but GOOD LUCK getting to them! Even if you could, any attempt at adjustment, even 1/16 turn, will change the vacuum flow pattern to the MAP sensor and usually causes an unstable idle. Additionally, the air bypass is very carefully adjusted at the factory by four stepper motors driven by a computer which monitors air flow within .01 mL/second in order to optimize off idle throttle response -- too much bypass and the idle will be too high to the point of occasionally going into fuel cut and dying even if the idle adjustment is backed all the way out. Too little and the idle adjustment will have to be turned up so high the throttle position sensor voltage will go past the ECU's idle range and you will get a major surge at idle and off idle response less like a throttle and more like a trigger.
So unless you are armed with extremely sophisticated air flow sensors that can be used with the airbox in place, know precisely what you are doing, and think the idle quality is absolute crap, don't mess with it! Frankly, I had the same thought when I first read the service manual, but at over 40,000 miles my '02 idles as smoothly as any bike I've ever owned, so I refuse to "fix" it.

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post #14 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 02:43 PM
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"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" thanks Rob!

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post #15 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 03:36 PM
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You guys need to take the throttle bodies off and put carbs on just so you'll have something to fiddle with!!!!

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post #16 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 05:57 PM
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??

.01 mil/second, boy, just a touch of the screwdriver blade and it's .03 mil/sec out of wack.
I think mine are just fine!

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post #17 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FJR919 View Post
My FJR and FZ1 both call for periodic synchronization yet Honda's only reference to it refers to starter enrichment synchronization.
I did the "starter enrichment synchronization" according to the service manual. Pretty much like synchronizing throttle bodies or carbs on any other bike I've had. It wasn't very difficult. It's been a while since I've done it, so I don't remember if I noticed a difference. Just part of regular maintenance.

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post #18 of 35 Old 11-16-2007, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHOBMAN View Post
You guys need to take the throttle bodies off and put carbs on just so you'll have something to fiddle with!!!!
The EFI was a big selling point for me. There were two bikes side by side in the showroom, forgot what the other was, but the salesman said I could get the other one which was a 1000cc bike for the same price, and I asked if it had fuel injection too, and he told me neither one did. That was the last time I talked to that salesman, and I love the EFI, it makes life so much simpler.

Less tuning, more riding!

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post #19 of 35 Old 11-19-2007, 07:20 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
All four throttle plates are firmly attached to a single shaft -- no possible adjustment there. There are air bypass screws in each throttle body, but GOOD LUCK getting to them! Even if you could, any attempt at adjustment, even 1/16 turn, will change the vacuum flow pattern to the MAP sensor and usually causes an unstable idle. Additionally, the air bypass is very carefully adjusted at the factory by four stepper motors driven by a computer which monitors air flow within .01 mL/second in order to optimize off idle throttle response -- too much bypass and the idle will be too high to the point of occasionally going into fuel cut and dying even if the idle adjustment is backed all the way out. Too little and the idle adjustment will have to be turned up so high the throttle position sensor voltage will go past the ECU's idle range and you will get a major surge at idle and off idle response less like a throttle and more like a trigger.
So unless you are armed with extremely sophisticated air flow sensors that can be used with the airbox in place, know precisely what you are doing, and think the idle quality is absolute crap, don't mess with it! Frankly, I had the same thought when I first read the service manual, but at over 40,000 miles my '02 idles as smoothly as any bike I've ever owned, so I refuse to "fix" it.

Rob
I had a feeling you would have some good input on this issue. But how do these air bypass screws differ from the ones on my FJR1300 and my '06 FZ1 where a little time with the mercury sticks has made a noticeable difference? As you know, these bikes also utilize TPS and MAP sensors.

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post #20 of 35 Old 11-19-2007, 11:09 PM
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Beyond this point, there be dragons!

I am forced to speculate on how it is that Honda, with essentially the same setup as the FZ1 and other EFI motorcycles, can specifically recommend no synchronization while all the rest require it, so here goes.
First, what is synchronization? It is making sure all the cylinders are getting the same amount of air at idle. In the case of injection, the bypass screws are there to compenaste for small differences in airflow past the barely open throttle plates. Why is it necessary? In the days of carbs, minor changes inside the engine such as aging spark plugs, changing valve clearances, stretching camchain(s), and generally wearing components need it, but the carbs themselves also change and require adjusting in order to have all the cylinders produce equal power impulses, generally at idle, but across the operating range. Fuel injection effectively deals itself out of the balance picture for the simple reason that there is only one source of fuel metering for all cylinders instead of one for each cylinder. While there may be problems with individual injectors, generally nothing changes significantly that does not affect all the cylinders. This leaves changes in the engine, and the legendary metallurgy and engineering Honda uses to build them comes into its own. Unless the engine is flogged, valve adjustments are rarely necessary, the coated cylinders and carefully selected ring composition make for very long life (40,000 miles of too infrequent maintenance and has yet to use one drop of oil!), and a host of other small things conspire to make a long lived, and equally important consistent engine.
Well you may say "But it still changes! How can a setup for a new engine work as effectively on one with 70,000 miles on it?"
Here begins the speculation.
There are many ways an EFI control unit can monitor the engine, even without an O2 sensor. One is by tracking the crank angle sensor closely and comparing the timing of the pulse just read with the previous one: a difference outside a specified value tells the computer that one cylinder is hitting harder or softer than the rest, and which one it is. Another is to watch the MAP sensor, paying particular attention for pulses which can indicate a weak or strong cylinder. A third and more subtle is to monitor the current draw of the ignition coils: a cylinder that is getting slightly more air has slightly greater compression pressure, which requires more current from the coil in order to fire the plugs. Armed with the information presented by any or all of the aforementioned sensing methods, the control unit can make small adjustments to injection period and ignition timing to compensate.
In my years of syncing carbs, when the mercury stick looks like the picture, I can easily feel it in the idle, and the 919s idle gives me none of that feel. So I refuse to worry about it.

Rob

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post #21 of 35 Old 11-20-2007, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
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"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" thanks Rob!
I wouldn't touch that project with a "29 and 1/2 foot pole...."


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post #22 of 35 Old 11-20-2007, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input Rob.

I'm certainly not complaining about not having to do more service on my motorcycles, but it was a curiousity. I had no intentions of fiddling with anything until this had been hashed out a bit. I am quite content to leave it alone and just ride it.

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post #23 of 35 Old 11-20-2007, 12:50 PM
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I did the adjustment and didn't find it very difficult. But, I don't see it on the maintenance schedule in the service manual, so I guess it's unnecessary.

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post #24 of 35 Old 11-20-2007, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick View Post
I did the adjustment and didn't find it very difficult. But, I don't see it on the maintenance schedule in the service manual, so I guess it's unnecessary.
Nick, as per your previous post I believe you're talking about starter enrichment synchronization, which is different from the synchronization procedure being discussed. Although performed the same way, once the enrichment plunger is pushed back in, any adjustments made would no longer be relevant.

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post #25 of 35 Old 11-20-2007, 01:38 PM
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Ahh. I guess I need to read more carefully. I thought the enrichment sync was accomplishing the same thing as synchoronizing the throttle bodies or carbs on my previous bikes.

Hell, I don't need to understand it. I just follow the instructions in the book.

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post #26 of 35 Old 11-20-2007, 06:36 PM
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it's a Honda...this thread is superfluous

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post #27 of 35 Old 08-24-2009, 11:11 AM
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Yeah, yeah, it's a two year old thread. I also saw that my FJR recommends throttle body sync and started thinking about my 919 and whether it needed it as well. Guess this thread pretty much answers those questions, thought I'd thank everyone who contributed valuable information and give it a bump for all the newer members.

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post #28 of 35 Old 08-24-2009, 11:55 AM
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My experience with all these new Fi bikes is that trying to sync the throttle bodies results in a result that is worse than the factory spec.

These things rarely if ever go out of spec on their own & You have to have a VERY accurate digital gauge to improve the factory specs. If you have the old fashioned mercury tube you can forget it completely as the imperfections inside the glass or plastic tubes alone is more than enough to alter the results to the point they would fail a factory spec.

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post #29 of 35 Old 08-24-2009, 06:16 PM
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I did have to do a TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) adjustment on my SV650. It smoothed out a little of the abrupt on/off feel of the throttle on that bike. Without having to dig into the 919 manual, can anyone tell me off hand whether the 919 requires a similar procedure?

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post #30 of 35 Old 08-27-2014, 10:56 AM
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I have an newish '04 with 4500 miles 919. Idle fluctuates more than what seems normal. Kind of huffy. Also unstable power around 2k RPMs. Interested in seeing if a Throttle Body Sync would fix it but can't find any information on how to do this.

I know that this is an old thread, but could someone who has done this operation enlighten us all and tell us how it's done.

I'm in the process of ordering the Honda Service Manual. What's the difference between CBR900F and CB900F? Is the first an older designation? I can't determine what a CBR900F is. Both books also list 919 on the cover.

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post #31 of 35 Old 08-27-2014, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelwatcher View Post
I have an newish '04 with 4500 miles 919. Idle fluctuates more than what seems normal. Kind of huffy. Also unstable power around 2k RPMs. Interested in seeing if a Throttle Body Sync would fix it but can't find any information on how to do this.

I know that this is an old thread, but could someone who has done this operation enlighten us all and tell us how it's done.

I'm in the process of ordering the Honda Service Manual. What's the difference between CBR900F and CB900F? Is the first an older designation? I can't determine what a CBR900F is. Both books also list 919 on the cover.

1. The 919 at normal operating temp does have a natural lope to the idle as did the 900RR that preceded it. It is perfectly normal.

2. Quit riding around at 2000rpms

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post #32 of 35 Old 08-27-2014, 11:32 AM
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Thanks for your reply. I appreciate your feedback.

Just the same, I'm going to figure out how to do a Throttle Body Sync one way or the other. Any one out there done one who could share with words and/or pics? How long of a procedure is it? I already have a vacuum gauge, but not sure if it's suitable for 4 cylinder bikes.

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post #33 of 35 Old 08-27-2014, 11:41 AM
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Fyi, we have the service manual in pdf in the helpful links section.

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post #34 of 35 Old 08-27-2014, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelwatcher View Post
I already have a vacuum gauge, but not sure if it's suitable for 4 cylinder bikes.
revisit LDHs latest post on this thread. I would be surprised if you have digital vacuum gauges and don't know how to do a TB sync. I would look at several other pieces before going for a TB sync. Plugs, vacuum lines, FPR, battery, coils, battery, grounds, stator. If nothing came about from there I would look at a compression test/leakdown. But then again I wouldn't be considering a TB sync unless for some reason I had to replace the TB.

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post #35 of 35 Old 09-16-2014, 07:34 PM
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i accidentally put a hole in my airbox
So i disassembled a replacement to clean it. Inside are separate air passages molded into a plastic bracket joining the throttle bodies together leading to the adjusters. There was some crud in there which accumulates and over time affecting idle, i think. so if your anal like me......or you can try adjusting to compensate or just

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