Still having throttle issues - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 05:06 AM Thread Starter
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Still having throttle issues

Some of you might remember another thread where I spoke of the issues that I was having with jerkiness at lower RPM. Well, I've wanted to repost this for a while, but wanted to make sure that I got more info before I did, clear up some ambiguity. Maybe some of our new members have some insight

Here's the problem, again...

In the 2.5-4.5k RPM range, my 919 has issues when constant throttle pressure is applied. Not so much when accelerating, but it can be seen with slow, constant acceleration. The issues are that when held at a steady pressure, the engine will become jerky and drop by a hundred or so RPM for a split second, then back to normal, then back down. This really sucks when riding because this oscillating RPM translates into rear wheel jerk. For highways it's not too much of a problem, because the higher RPM of highway driving doesn't exhibit this behavior. If I go 50-60 on the highway, it does. The biggest thing that worries me is when I'm riding in the twisties, I really don't want the rear wheel jerking around while leaned over...not real safe. Most of all, it makes me less confident in the bike's ability. I thought at one point that it could be a chain issue, but even if it's parked, in neutral, and I hold the throttle steady, the bike will still exhibit this behavior. There are times when it doesn't happen at all in a riding session, but it's a good bet that at any given point, it is happening.

A lot of you have given things to try, so let me tell you what I have tried, and ultimately hasn't worked:
- Drive chain is tight, cleaned, and lubed
- Spark plugs are good
- Throttle free play adjusted (tightened)
- No powercommander in use
- Battery connections solid
- Ground wire to frame has good contact
- Adjusted idle speed
- Bought gas at many different stations, and different octanes

Do I take it to the dealer? I can look at things myself, but I just have no ideas as to what the problem could be. I'm fairly competent when it comes to slinging a wrench, but I don't have much experience troubleshooting stuff like this. I do have the Helm manual, but again, don't know where to start. Any of you pros want to come live with me for a week and get it figured out?

Once again, thanks in advance for any advice.

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post #2 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 07:16 AM
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Is your rpm steady at idle? Have you done the flapper mod, if so , maybe you left a vacuum line unplugged? A vacuum leak can cause problems at low rpm's but you may not even notice at high rpms. Also did you replace the plugs or just pull one out and look at it. The only real way to test the plugs would be to replace them, just because they spark out of the cylinder doesn't mean they spark in the cyclinder.

That was just some ideas.

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post #3 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjason View Post
Is your rpm steady at idle? Have you done the flapper mod, if so , maybe you left a vacuum line unplugged? A vacuum leak can cause problems at low rpm's but you may not even notice at high rpms. Also did you replace the plugs or just pull one out and look at it. The only real way to test the plugs would be to replace them, just because they spark out of the cylinder doesn't mean they spark in the cyclinder.

That was just some ideas.
Yes, RPM is steady at idle, just the normal chug-chug-chug. I have done the flapper mod, but I did plug it. Maybe I can try plugging it with a slightly larger bolt though, get a better seal. If I recall, I had problems prior to doing the flapper mod. I replaced all the plugs. I decided to pull them all, and since I was going through the trouble of pulling them, I figured I should replace them. The ones I took out looked fine and were gapped correctly.

Thanks for the ideas...

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post #4 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 07:33 AM
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Just to verify the problem, I would undo the flapper mod. Are there any other modifications?

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post #5 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 07:36 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Just to verify the problem, I would undo the flapper mod. Are there any other modifications?
The only mods are:
Flapper mod
17t coutershaft sprocket
Galfer brake lines

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post #6 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmelnick View Post
The only mods are:
Flapper mod
17t coutershaft sprocket
Galfer brake lines
OK... Do yourself a favor and undo the flapper mod. just to be on the safe side.

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post #7 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 07:44 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
OK... Do yourself a favor and undo the flapper mod. just to be on the safe side.
Roger. Will do that tonight.

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post #8 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 10:30 AM
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Let me ask you a question.

Does it do it if you going uphill? In other words, you have to maintain a little more throttle to hold a constant speed uphill to overcome the slightly greater load? No Accelerating uphill.. just maintaining a constant speed.

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post #9 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 10:48 AM Thread Starter
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I'm not sure....there's not many big hills around here in MO, so I know it happens on flat roads. I'll try and check it out on the way home from work and let you know.

Your question has me intrigued though

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post #10 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 12:34 PM
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I don't have the manual here at work, but is there a mechanical advance/retard mechanism that adjusts the spark timing? It sounds like that kind of problem!

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post #11 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 12:50 PM
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Does it do it downhill with your big toe over your head?

Not that it would matter. Seriously though, do you have a way to check the TPS. I wonder if it has a spot where it's flakey.

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post #12 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 12:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaJim View Post
Does it do it downhill with your big toe over your head?

Not that it would matter. Seriously though, do you have a way to check the TPS. I wonder if it has a spot where it's flakey.
If I knew how to test the TPS, I could do it as long as there are no "special" tools needed... I assume that there are instructions in my service manual, tho.

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post #13 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 12:57 PM
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Of recent mine started this again,I'm the one with the ground at the frame issue,but not this time.After pushstarting it twice I pulled the Batt and charged it.Problem went away.Went to Honda and had batt tested. It was charged(night before)and showed good voltage but not good health?
I replaced it and Wow I didn't even notice how bad the bike had been running.Now everything is smooth& crisp again.

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post #14 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvetree View Post
Of recent mine started this again,I'm the one with the ground at the frame issue,but not this time.After pushstarting it twice I pulled the Batt and charged it.Problem went away.Went to Honda and had batt tested. It was charged(night before)and showed good voltage but not good health?
I replaced it and Wow I didn't even notice how bad the bike had been running.Now everything is smooth& crisp again.
That's nuts. I'd think once the bike was started that it would run fine. Maybe I'll pull mine and check... What year is your 919 (or more importantly, how old was the battery?)

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post #15 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 01:05 PM
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I have what seems to be the same problem with mine 2500 to about 3500 rpm with smaller throttle settings the bike feels like its surging, if I keep it in third gear and run it up to 3500 rpm and hold it there it feels slmost like its hit a rev limiter and cutting out cylinders, It's been driving me nuts for about a year now, I've installed every power commander map I can get my hands on (fiddled with them all manually) done-undone-done-undone-done the flapper mod. the funny thing is that when I ride to work on a cold/cool morning it runs fantastic, when I ride home after work it does it. I'm at a loss.

Dan

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post #16 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmelnick View Post
That's nuts. I'd think once the bike was started that it would run fine. Maybe I'll pull mine and check... What year is your 919 (or more importantly, how old was the battery?)
It's an "03"bought late in 07/2003...54,743 miles to batt replacment.

Voodo have you unhooked the PC?

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post #17 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 01:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voodooridr View Post
I have what seems to be the same problem with mine 2500 to about 3500 rpm with smaller throttle settings the bike feels like its surging, if I keep it in third gear and run it up to 3500 rpm and hold it there it feels slmost like its hit a rev limiter and cutting out cylinders, It's been driving me nuts for about a year now, I've installed every power commander map I can get my hands on (fiddled with them all manually) done-undone-done-undone-done the flapper mod. the funny thing is that when I ride to work on a cold/cool morning it runs fantastic, when I ride home after work it does it. I'm at a loss.

Dan
Man, I should have described it that way...that sounds pretty near identical to me. Not sure about the cold/cool morning, or maybe it only does it once warmed up.

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post #18 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 01:22 PM
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No, I've let it sit in the driveway and idle for 10-15min on cool mornings and it still runs great, then later in the afternoon it it runs hinky (but not all the time) I've been wondering if air density has anything to do with it? I haven't messed with any of the PCM connections since I installed the PCIIIUSB. Also when it's acting up it'll pop back through the exhaust when shifting (2500-3500 rpm) and decelerating.

Dan

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post #19 of 32 Old 09-17-2007, 01:53 PM
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Unplug your pc3, I have heard of nothing but problems with those, sure you can get an extra 3-4hp, but is it worth the hasles it causes when it glitches?

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post #20 of 32 Old 09-18-2007, 05:25 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
OK... Do yourself a favor and undo the flapper mod. just to be on the safe side.
Flapper mod undone. Problem persists.

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post #21 of 32 Old 09-18-2007, 05:58 AM
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MY bike has done this, but only once. The only thing I could put it down to was that it wasn't fully in 6th gear, and it was actually in 5.5th gear

It happened for fair while, at least a few minutes with me trying in vain to work out what it was. Then it went CLUNK, dropped itself fully into 6th, and it has never happened again.

I now push it pretty hard into 6th

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post #22 of 32 Old 09-18-2007, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmelnick View Post
Flapper mod undone. Problem persists.
Hmmm... Maybe something strange going on with the TPS as HondaJim mentioned.

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post #23 of 32 Old 09-18-2007, 06:07 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Hmmm... Maybe something strange going on with the TPS as HondaJim mentioned.
Suck. Looked at the manual last night, and I need two ECU bypass thingys (sorry, it's still too early for wordsmith skills) to test the TPS.

By the way, the Helm manual has maybe the worst index in the world. Great manual...baaaad index

Plus, I believe the TPS is attached with rivets, not bolts, so replacing it would be a beyatch.

Edit: Crap. Just looked up an OEM parts finder and it looks like you can't even replace the TPS?!?

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post #24 of 32 Old 09-18-2007, 12:19 PM
 
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I just want to say that I have a hell of a time working the throttle smoothly also. It is way too touchy, especially getting on the gas mid corner is a struggle. I have also experienced a little bit of surging but I was thinking it was more my fault.

One other suggestion, that I have to test further myself, is adjusting the idle up a little bit. This could explain why voodooridr's bike runs better when it is cool, something which I have also experienced. But like I said, I haven't been able to test this theory much yet, I will try to soon.

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post #25 of 32 Old 09-18-2007, 12:54 PM
 
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could be an injector problem,try running injector cleaner through the tank, run the fuel down to reserve then add the injector cleaner, run for a few miles then fill back up with fresh fuel.

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post #26 of 32 Old 09-18-2007, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voodooridr View Post
I have what seems to be the same problem with mine 2500 to about 3500 rpm with smaller throttle settings the bike feels like its surging, if I keep it in third gear and run it up to 3500 rpm and hold it there it feels slmost like its hit a rev limiter and cutting out cylinders, It's been driving me nuts for about a year now, I've installed every power commander map I can get my hands on (fiddled with them all manually) done-undone-done-undone-done the flapper mod. the funny thing is that when I ride to work on a cold/cool morning it runs fantastic, when I ride home after work it does it. I'm at a loss.

Dan
Quote:
Man, I should have described it that way...that sounds pretty near identical to me. Not sure about the cold/cool morning, or maybe it only does it once warmed up.
To cmelnick, voodoorider, and whomever else has/had this issue. I offer this phrase: power feed to the ECU. Specifically, electrical noise riding on the output voltage from the regulator interfering with proper operation of the ECU at certain engine speeds. A brief overview of the charging system is necessary in order to understand this (if you already know this, or don't wish to know it, skip past the bold section to the troubleshooting) The charging system on the 919, and practically every other large Honda for the last 20 years, is a permament magnet three phase type consisting of a multi pole rotor and a complicated looking stator inside it. As long as the crankshaft is turning it is generating power proportional to the speed of the rotor in three alternating current phases 120 degrees apart. These 3 phases are connected together in delta configuration for ease of wiring and delivered to the regulator by three Yellow wires. The regulator senses the system voltage and determines how much of each of these phases to rectify in order to keep it between 13.5 and 14.3 (or so) volts. Under light electrical load situations over 50% of the input voltage is essentially ignored by switching it off past a certain value, which throws a small spike onto the output voltage, a normal artifact of high speed transistor switching. The output goes to the battery which is charged and also absorbs the spikes, smoothing the system voltage. If the battery is either getting old or has an internal defect, not all of the spikes are fully absorbed and show up in the electrical system as noise. In the good old days, there were no sophisticated electronics to be affected by this noise, but now the ECU can be temporarily disrupted if a spike arrives in coincidence with an event such as injector triggering, crank angle signal, ignition firing, ETC, which can cause instability. It may also be temperature or vibration related, throwing in another set of variables.
To test this, remove the left side frame cover, get the engine up to operating temperature and make sure it's doing its stumble thing, stop the engine and unplug the three pin block connector just under the intake snorkel, start up again and see if it still stumbles. If it doesn't, the problem is either the battery, the voltage regulator, or any of the associated wiring. if it still does, you will have to get a very high quality digital volt/ohm/ammeter, dig out the service manual, and start testing all the circuits and sensors for resistance, VREF value, logic ground integrity, contact condition, and a whole bunch of other very subtle things that are characteristic of semi modern fuel injection systems.
One question I have to ask the Powers-That-Be is why don't any of these things ever happen to me (with all the necessary knowledge and test equipment) so I could find out what the cause is and pass it along? Is it something I said? Remote troubleshooting is such a bitch.
I hope this helps.

Rob

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post #27 of 32 Old 09-18-2007, 08:14 PM
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I have to agree with HondaJim. Sounds like a bad spot on the TPS. If it only happens at the same throttle position.

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post #28 of 32 Old 09-19-2007, 04:38 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
To test this, remove the left side frame cover, get the engine up to operating temperature and make sure it's doing its stumble thing, stop the engine and unplug the three pin block connector just under the intake snorkel, start up again and see if it still stumbles. If it doesn't, the problem is either the battery, the voltage regulator, or any of the associated wiring. if it still does, you will have to get a very high quality digital volt/ohm/ammeter, dig out the service manual, and start testing all the circuits and sensors for resistance, VREF value, logic ground integrity, contact condition, and a whole bunch of other very subtle things that are characteristic of semi modern fuel injection systems.
Thanks rob, that sounds easy enough to test, well the first part anyway, I'll take a look at it tomorrow. Not looking forward to the pain of troubleshooting if that's not the problem. One of my friends has a Fluke multimeter, is that high-quality enough?

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post #29 of 32 Old 09-19-2007, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmelnick View Post
One of my friends has a Fluke multimeter, is that high-quality enough?
IMO Fluke multimeter's are high end test equipment.

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post #30 of 32 Old 09-19-2007, 05:09 AM
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Fluke makes great meters. But unfortunately there's one thing they don't do well, and that's checking resistance/output through a full range like a TPS requires. I've got an old Simpson 260XL that I keep just for those type of measurements. The needle sweep on an analog meter is much better for showing bad/flakey spots in a TPS than a digital meter. It's like trying to read a digital tach with an accelerating engine.

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post #31 of 32 Old 09-19-2007, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaJim View Post
Fluke makes great meters. But unfortunately there's one thing they don't do well, and that's checking resistance/output through a full range like a TPS requires. I've got an old Simpson 260XL that I keep just for those type of measurements. The needle sweep on an analog meter is much better for showing bad/flakey spots in a TPS than a digital meter. It's like trying to read a digital tach with an accelerating engine.
Agreed, but many Fluke meters have a very quick reacting bargraph readout below the numbers intended for just this sort of test. If it has this, then you're golden. If not, Harbor Freight carries a cheap analog meter that should be suitable for testing resistance sweeps such as the TPS. Of course, if it does test bad (which in my extensive experience with Honda cars indicates is unlikely -- they look nearly identical, and only 2 bad ones out of over 15,000 cars worked on), then you will either have to replace the entire throttle body assy. or haunt salvages to try to find a used one they will be willing to let you remove from the throttle. Incidentally, the TPS is held by break head screws which can be drilled out if you know what you are doing.

Rob

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post #32 of 32 Old 09-19-2007, 11:05 AM
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cmelnick,

One thing you might want to try before you go into extensive test mode is unplugging/inspecting/clean if necessary/replug the connections at the TPS and at the ECM. The RPMs you report the problem at are in the range that causes the most vibration. Check the easy stuff first, then move to the harder tests.

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