spongy brakes normal or not????? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 44 Old 10-31-2006, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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spongy brakes normal or not?????

is this normal function for a 2004 919 at 6500 miles no brake service that i know of, bought it used with 2200miles brakes are good and have not changed since i purchased it



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post #2 of 44 Old 10-31-2006, 07:35 PM
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It's tight and then feels spongy? That would sound like a master cylinder without any other facts. Does it get softer and softer if you squeeze and hold it?

Have you ridden another 919? Maybe it's just in your head?

'02 RC-51
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post #3 of 44 Old 10-31-2006, 07:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragdoll View Post
It's tight and then feels spongy? That would sound like a master cylinder without any other facts. Does it get softer and softer if you squeeze and hold it?

Have you ridden another 919? Maybe it's just in your head?
i knew that was the wrong word to say! when i say tight it started getting firm. then when u see the rest of the movement, which it is stopping the bike,it feels spongy and at the part where the lever is parallel to the grip it is really firm.

no i have not riden any others but prolly just need to squeze lever huh...

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post #4 of 44 Old 10-31-2006, 07:59 PM
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My brother Ducati had that same feel and he bled the brakes and it was better... for like a week and then got worse again. Ended up needing a new master cylinder. You can try bleeding the brakes.

I still couldn't say if you have a real issue or if it's in your head.

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post #5 of 44 Old 10-31-2006, 08:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragdoll View Post

I still couldn't say if you have a real issue or if it's in your head.


I think this is the winning statement

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post #6 of 44 Old 10-31-2006, 08:13 PM
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You might just be feeling the brake lines flex and expand as the cylinder moves fluid. Try squeezing the brake and watch what the brake lines do while you're feeling the lever action.

2002 919 40,000 miles
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post #7 of 44 Old 11-01-2006, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bock919 View Post
You might just be feeling the brake lines flex and expand as the cylinder moves fluid. Try squeezing the brake and watch what the brake lines do while you're feeling the lever action.
they actually do move but is that normal??

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post #8 of 44 Old 11-01-2006, 05:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragdoll View Post
It's tight and then feels spongy? That would sound like a master cylinder without any other facts. Does it get softer and softer if you squeeze and hold it?

Have you ridden another 919? Maybe it's just in your head?
Softer and softer the more you squeeze and hold it? Maybe it's not a master cylinder he needs, it's a viagra prescription....

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post #9 of 44 Old 11-01-2006, 08:46 PM
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Put a radial master off a 600RR or 1000rr. No more spongy brake instant feedback

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post #10 of 44 Old 11-01-2006, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuonoR6 View Post
Put a radial master off a 600RR or 1000rr. No more spongy brake instant feedback
any particular year of either?

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post #11 of 44 Old 11-01-2006, 11:13 PM
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Apparently sponge is normal.

The following describes how stiff lines improve it.

http://www.919.org/lines.htm

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post #12 of 44 Old 11-02-2006, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcombs View Post
they actually do move but is that normal??
Yessiree. That's why people buy steel braided lines

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post #13 of 44 Old 11-02-2006, 06:51 AM
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The feel should not be spongy at all unless you are experiencing brake fade after aggressive use.

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post #14 of 44 Old 11-02-2006, 02:06 PM
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>The feel should not be spongy at all unless you are experiencing brake fade after aggressive use.

After reading the service manual, my mostly rear brake sponge issue may be a combination of pad wear, and stock rubber hoses. I'm going to replace both and bleed the lines and hopefully that tightens the brake response.

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post #15 of 44 Old 11-02-2006, 03:33 PM
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My concluding thoughts on the matter.

It might be something is wrong with something... or it perhaps isn't anything at all. Or something else.

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post #16 of 44 Old 11-02-2006, 05:46 PM
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Given your logic...thanks for adding your $0.00

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post #17 of 44 Old 11-02-2006, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragdoll View Post
My concluding thoughts on the matter.

It might be something is wrong with something... or it perhaps isn't anything at all. Or something else.
...and the award for the most ambiguous response goes to.....





RAGDOLL!!!!!!!!

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post #18 of 44 Old 11-02-2006, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
The feel should not be spongy at all unless you are experiencing brake fade after aggressive use.
I did notice it the brakes felt more firm the morning after I took that video. So can i ASSuME that i expericenced brake fade?? I was practiceing quick stops. Nothing really quick

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post #19 of 44 Old 11-02-2006, 08:15 PM
 
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Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think brake fade only occurs when the brakes are HOT, so if your brakes were cooled down then fade is not the problem.

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post #20 of 44 Old 11-02-2006, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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Didn't realize i could quote myself HHEHEHE


this was what i was doing b4 the video
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcombs View Post
I was practiceing quick stops. Nothing really quick

Quote:
Originally Posted by motorwerks919 View Post
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think brake fade only occurs when the brakes are HOT, so if your brakes were cooled down then fade is not the problem.
So with earlier quote they were hot in the video, but even cold the lines seem to flex some...so this is normal... no problem... and to just make them better all the way around is a 600 or 1000 rr radial mount master and Braided Stainless Lines???

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post #21 of 44 Old 11-03-2006, 12:18 AM
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I found this great web info for cars. The fade culprit may be old fluid.
...

Bleeding Brakes FAQ and Step-by-Step Instructions

by Dave Zeckhausen

How often should you bleed your brakes?

Manufacturers usually specify that brakes should be bled every two years, starting from the date the vehicle was built. For race cars, it may be necessary to bleed the brakes before each track event and, if the pedal becomes soft during an event, it may even be necessary to bleed between sessions. If you find yourself bleeding the car between sessions, it's time to consider using a brake fluid with a higher boiling point, such as Motul 600 or Castrol SRF.

Why bleed brakes?
Fresh brake fluid has a significantly higher boiling point than old fluid, allowing harder braking without fade. This is because brake fluid is hygroscopic and readily absorbs moisture. The more moisture in the fluid, the lower the boiling point.

That same moisture promotes corrosion. Frequent bleeding with fresh fluid allows brake components to last longer. A well maintained brake system can help you avoid ever having to replace calipers, master cylinder or an expensive ABS control unit.

The bleeding process, done properly, removes air bubbles from the hydraulic system, resulting in firmer brake pedal feel and more linear, responsive braking performance. Too much air in the system can be dangerous and result in the pedal sinking all the way to the floor. Air is compressible, brake fluid is not.

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post #22 of 44 Old 11-05-2006, 10:12 AM
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My $0.02
I had stock everything at 5000 miles. No brake service, no problems, firm lever. Just an annoying dragging sound from the right rotor. I noticed the right rotor running 50deg. hotter than the left under normal riding conditions. Tried to warranty a fix. HA! not gon'a happen. They couldn't find anything wrong except a sticking caliper. not the problem. I found the rotor had about . 075" -.100" of run out radially. Over time the heat difference went away the noise didn't.
At 5500 miles, I tried different pad compounds & manufactures, still dragging, still annoying.
After rebuilding the calipers, pad swapping, installing braided lines, still dragging but I had a spongy lever. After bleading, Bled it a dozen times, still spongy. I knew it had to do with a miss match in wear & pad flex due to all the swapping and nothing fully "bedding" in.
It doesn't take much to make a lever move a lot. If you don't have perfectly flat rotors & pads or exactly worn & matched pads & rotors, The lever "Feel" is not going to be most desirable.
So I went all new with Galfer Wave Rotors & Galfer HH pads. Front & Rear. Without bleeding the brakes, just swapping rotors & pads, The brake lever moves a 1/4" (at the end)and is solid, so solid I had to readjust the lever closer to the grip. After some hard riding, still firm.
And NO DRAGGING! or noise of any kind so far. They stop GREAT! I LOVE 'EM!
I hope this might give you some direction as to what might be the problem.

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post #23 of 44 Old 11-05-2006, 11:11 AM
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Thanks xrmikey!

My front brake drags too (high pitched whine), but it's the rear toe cramping sponge that bothers me. I have the turkey baster (will add a new flavor to TDay!), and mityvac to replace the dot4 with braided lines first. Will replace the pads/rotors next.

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post #24 of 44 Old 11-06-2006, 05:58 PM
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Today I changed to braided lines and loaded them with motul. I went through a quart of motul to get the hang of bleeding them. Now the brakes are so responsive and tight!

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post #25 of 44 Old 11-07-2006, 07:37 AM
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Lessons learned bleeding brakes for my Naked Brothers/Sisters.

) Cover your bike fender with AL foil, and wrap your HB resevoir with a rag to prevent dripping fluid from your paint. Have lots of rags read for panic spills.

) Use a torque wrench (12-15lb) on the braided lines fittings to avoid over tightening

) Do the rear brake first, it's much easier than the fronts.

) Make sure the handle bar brake reservoir is level and clamped tight before starting

) Use an oil pan newspaper to catch the mess and power spray area afterwards

) Zip tie the tubes connection to the bleed valve to make air tight, so no misleading bubbles.

) Concurrently pump the brake lever to release bubbles

) Vacuum Pressure (20lb) the line before opening the valve and open it slowly

) Opening the valve too much will drain the reservoir pulling air in the system and you have to start all over, thus how I used most of the expensive ($11!) quart. To make it exciting during the Nth front fill there was no brake pressure.

) Close the valve while still having vacuum pressure in the line to keep air out

) Dispose of brake fluid properly in an empty sealed container and take to the local Hazzard Materials Recyclers

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post #26 of 44 Old 11-07-2006, 08:55 AM
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dream, u forgot;
and spend a gazillion dollars on wave rotors...

some parasitic drag doesn't bother me, i don't care if bugs wear dresses or not

heck, i like a spongy rear brake...the stock setup was 'wooden' to say the least...not that i use a rear brake much except for super low speed stuff on wet/slippery pavement

appreciate u perfectionist types goin to all the trouble though

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post #27 of 44 Old 11-07-2006, 09:30 AM
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Not sure I "need" wave rotors, but they sure look sweet!

The total parts bill for galfers, motul, mitivac (plastic ), and turkey baster was two bills.

DISCLAIMER: if you aren't mechanically blessed with lots of time and patience, HAVE a competent experienced mechanic do the brake line job. Otherwise the best case you will need to tow it to a mechanic to finish the job, but the worst case it will fail on the road and kill you. If you don't hear from me again you'll know what happened.

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post #28 of 44 Old 11-07-2006, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dream247919 View Post
Not sure I "need" wave rotors, but they sure look sweet!

The total parts bill for galfers, motul, mitivac (plastic ), and turkey baster was two bills.

DISCLAIMER: if you aren't mechanically blessed with lots of time and patience, HAVE a competent experienced mechanic do the brake line job. Otherwise the best case you will need to tow it to a mechanic to finish the job, but the worst case it will fail on the road and kill you. If you don't hear from me again you'll know what happened.
I got first dibs on parts!!!

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post #29 of 44 Old 11-07-2006, 11:49 AM
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>I got first dibs on parts!!!

xrmikey, since you inspired my leap through the hydralic fear factor, you got dibs on all surviving parts. Hey wait a second you always had a hidden agenda!

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post #30 of 44 Old 11-07-2006, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dream247919 View Post
Not sure I "need" wave rotors, but they sure look sweet!

The total parts bill for galfers, motul, mitivac (plastic ), and turkey baster was two bills.

DISCLAIMER: if you aren't mechanically blessed with lots of time and patience, HAVE a competent experienced mechanic do the brake line job. Otherwise the best case you will need to tow it to a mechanic to finish the job, but the worst case it will fail on the road and kill you. If you don't hear from me again you'll know what happened.
how do u get front and rear rotors (galfers) plus pads for $200 ???????????
they go for $500+ a set

did i miss somethin earlier in the thread...some sort of exchange of favors for parts or what?

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post #31 of 44 Old 11-07-2006, 12:05 PM
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Hi Ratdog,

I only did the maintenance value upgrade. No rotors or pads, just galfer lines ($130), motul pint ($11) , and a metered vacuum pump ($50). When the stock pads wear out I'll decide if rotors are "necessary". I adjusted both brakes' minimum adjustment (the rear was tricky to loosen the set nut through the peg slant hole) and now they are tight and precise! I'm ready for some stoppies/fishtails!

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post #32 of 44 Old 11-07-2006, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dream247919 View Post
>I got first dibs on parts!!!

xrmikey, since you inspired my leap through the hydralic fear factor, you got dibs on all surviving parts. Hey wait a second you always had a hidden agenda!
No,no,no. No hidden agenda! just a relapse from my E-Baygitis!
Just wanted to get my bid in. See a deal, BID IT! Attachment 1387
Happy to hear all is GREAT with the binders!

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post #33 of 44 Old 11-08-2006, 12:00 AM
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This is how I bleed my brakes. On my cars & my bikes.
It's a VACULA swiss made vacuum bleeder.get it off a MATCO truck.
It hooks up to your air compressor,press & lock the top handle,open your bleeder & it sucks all the air out.Tighten the bleeder your done. On the fronts I do one,then the other,back again to the 1st,then the 2nd one more time.

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post #34 of 44 Old 11-08-2006, 06:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrmikey View Post
This is how I bleed my brakes. On my cars & my bikes.
It's a VACULA swiss made vacuum bleeder.get it off a MATCO truck.
It hooks up to your air compressor,press & lock the top handle,open your bleeder & it sucks all the air out.Tighten the bleeder your done. On the fronts I do one,then the other,back again to the 1st,then the 2nd one more time.
what's that thing cost???

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post #35 of 44 Old 11-08-2006, 06:27 AM
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I bleed the brakes manually on all my bikes. It takes less than 5 minutes & doesn't cost a fuggin thing.

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post #36 of 44 Old 11-08-2006, 06:39 AM
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Speedbleeders are very trick and inexpensive.


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post #37 of 44 Old 11-08-2006, 07:56 AM
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I saw a trick on a dirtbike TV show and it works great.

I first bleed my brakes manually, not hard, then when I'm all done I zip tie my break leaver as if it was being sqeezed firmly. Leave it sit over night, snip the tie in the morning and it will be toit like a tiger!

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post #38 of 44 Old 11-08-2006, 08:15 AM
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The compressor bleed would be great for a car line job. Those speedbleeders are trick with stainless @ $15. On their website they warn about breaking ANY, even stock, bleeds valves. I bet that's an expensive nightmare to fix, so be careful not to overtighten.

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post #39 of 44 Old 11-08-2006, 08:57 AM
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Speedbleeders valve for the CB900F: SB8125L-SS. They are expanding biz to ceramic bake exhaust finishes that handles 1800oF!

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post #40 of 44 Old 11-08-2006, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcombs View Post
what's that thing cost???
Just so you know I did not buy it just for my motorcycle.
Mine is the heavy duty model, basicly the same as this one. http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/VAC-180051.html
I paid $125.00 (cost)two years ago.
It had the master refill adapter also. It's a jug full of fluid that mounts on the master. refills as you go.
I bought it for doing brakes on my offroad truck,just run around & bleed all the wheels,never have to look at the master,always full.
It just so happens to work great on bikes too. When you do a system flush or line change it's great,cars or bikes.
If I didn't already own it, I would definetly use speedbleeders! or something of the like.

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