shifting clutchless?? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 34 Old 09-04-2006, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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Talking shifting clutchless??

kinda got this from the false neutal and wondered the real outcome. Does it really hurt the transmission or not?? Dont want to start an arguement but would like to know!!

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post #2 of 34 Old 09-04-2006, 05:21 PM
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not if your good. are you?.............everytime? it will let you know.

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post #3 of 34 Old 09-04-2006, 05:50 PM
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I like to think that I'm 'good' at clutchless shifting, my bike still will find a false neutral randomly every 20-30 times I shift like that. Just use the clutch, you have a 919, you're not racing.

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post #4 of 34 Old 09-04-2006, 05:51 PM
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I don't race, or drag race, so I can't vouch for what's required of people in those situations. But for regular riding, even hard thru the twisties, I can't see any reason not to use the clutch. Without it, if you shift at the wrong moment, you can tear up the tranny. If you use it, no worries. I like no worries when it comes to machines. They tend to not let you down at the wrong time (21,500 ft up in the air; 80 miles an hour in traffic, center lane, I-5...)

-Joe
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post #5 of 34 Old 09-04-2006, 06:16 PM
 
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my point exactly.... why not better safe than sorry... use the clutch


over time the added stress on the shifter fork and the ever so slight jamming of two loaded up spinning gears will create undue wear. WHY? so you can act like a road racer?

No matter how smooth it feels the shifter fork is shoving the primary gear into place on the selected gear. pull the clutch in for a split second and unload the gear.

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post #6 of 34 Old 09-04-2006, 06:47 PM
 
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Ride the bike the way you want to! I ride it hard and when I want a better shift, like when drag racing, the clutch is left alone! Unless you are a moron when shifting, your tranny will be fine. Not comfortable yet, or your still a beginner then use your clutch!! It takes a major screw up to hurt your tranny, its not made out of CRYSTAL!!:double flip:

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post #7 of 34 Old 09-04-2006, 06:53 PM
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Asked and Answered:

clutchless upshifts ...the downside risk

recent thread

dog your dogs if u wanna, it's a honda...dog'em long enuff and u'll get bit ...

me, repsol full synth + pazzos = 2 finger, near effortless clutched up/down shifts...i upset the bike more w/ gettin off the throttle too much when under near-full or full load.

The 9r's clutch don't pra-turn me, long as i get my $ next friday

cheers
-rd

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post #8 of 34 Old 09-04-2006, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HEYARCHIE View Post
Ride the bike the way you want to! I ride it hard and when I want a better shift, like when drag racing, the clutch is left alone! Unless you are a moron when shifting, your tranny will be fine. Not comfortable yet, or your still a beginner then use your clutch!! It takes a major screw up to hurt your tranny, its not made out of CRYSTAL!!:double flip:
Even good riders make mistakes, hero, don't get so bent out of shape. If you want to tear up your tranny, by all means. I think you're right, ride the way you want to. It's your bike, after all. I was just making a statement about the way I ride.

-Joe
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post #9 of 34 Old 09-04-2006, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcombs View Post
kinda got this from the false neutal and wondered the real outcome. Does it really hurt the transmission or not?? Dont want to start an arguement but would like to know!!

learning how to shift is more important than learning how not to shift...


shifting smoothly should be the goal of your routine riding under all circumstances, learning how to clutchless upshift is not a bad thing and fun for sh!tz and grinz now an agin...try not to make it a habit and all will be well enough for the time being

for the most part, only 3 things are gonna trash your 9r's powertrain;
>rider error, rubber side up
>lack of prudent oil changes
>blast from a 12g at point blank range

short of these 3 things, the 919 will remain mechanically sound well beyond the period of ownership for a typcial owner (not counting those 75k+ mi freaks out there )

so, change your oil, keep the rubber side down, don't shoot your 919 w/ a shotgun and chances are you and your motorcickle will be fine for years to come...

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post #10 of 34 Old 09-04-2006, 07:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
Even good riders make mistakes, hero, don't get so bent out of shape. If you want to tear up your tranny, by all means. I think you're right, ride the way you want to. It's your bike, after all. I was just making a statement about the way I ride.

Thanks, always wanted to be called a hero!!

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post #11 of 34 Old 02-01-2010, 07:45 PM
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My take on clutchless shifting was to make sure there is no load on the gears. If there is no load its fine, and way smooth. I drag race a kz750, and dont have a electric shifter yet, which just kills the ignition to take the load off, so for now its just blip off the throttle and shift, butter smooth everytime. As far as my daily rider tahts worth way more i dunno, i just always thought a clutch takes the load off, so if the loads off whats the deal?

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post #12 of 34 Old 02-01-2010, 08:38 PM
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Clutchless shifts only work when tranny is under a load. It's the sudden break in the load that makes shifting possible (smooth). IF you are good at it, it won't hurt your transmission. But that's a big "IF". I agree with the comment if you're not racing it, just use the clutch. If you're getting a false neutral, there is already some type of damage going on (even if it's just periodic). Sooner or later it's gonna need to come out of there to be fixed. I've had same tranny in my 9RR since 02 with nothing but airshifting. It looked as new as the day I got it back from R&D transmission in FL. If you're going to abuse a tranny, take it out and send it to those guys. They are best tranny people on the planet. But like I said, I agree with just using the clutch.

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post #13 of 34 Old 02-01-2010, 09:44 PM
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The 919 has a big old solid clunky transmission that I suspect is well over engineered for the power output. It is not the nicest shifter out there by a long shot but it is solid.

And appears to be 'fussy' with different brands of oil!

Me - I use the clutch.

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post #14 of 34 Old 02-01-2010, 09:56 PM
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ill upshift clutchless from time to time but its ALWAYS under very low ammounts of throttle with very low rpms (under 4k) a lil cut of the throttle right as you upshift will make for a smooth clutchless upshift... but anytime im in semi racemode... or up higher in the RPMS i use the clutch... on the 919 its a pretty easy clutch use it... clutch plates are much cheaper than a tranny!

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post #15 of 34 Old 02-01-2010, 10:40 PM
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I personally will use the clutch to go from 1-2 and down shifting, but up shifting the rest of the gears I drop the throttle, shift, go. I've put well over 20k miles doing such. So I'll keep changing my oil and continuing my practice.

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post #16 of 34 Old 02-01-2010, 10:54 PM
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I think clutchless shifting is worthwhile to practice. for one thing, it will help you zero in on 'smooth' versus 'rough'...plus, I like to practice things I may need to do someday in an emergency situation....what if I'm far from home, and break my clutch cable? If I was smart enough to bring some tools and a spare, I can get it changed out...but it may be nice to be able to up/downshift without the clutch in case I end up rubber side up and need to get back to civilization, too. It's a skill, therefore it's good to practice it even if you don't use it often.

Well, fire the engines! Spur this iron space-pony on!

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post #17 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 01:25 AM
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1-2-3, I clutch. 4-5-6, no.

Super Duke, I clutch em all.

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post #18 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 04:20 AM
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Once you get the timing right, it does not harm.

It's that period of learning that can bugger up the dogs.

Hey, what about that false nuetral between 5-6? Anyone else hit that one and -

Well, the noise it makes, oh man!

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post #19 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 05:22 AM
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mine always false shifts between 6 and 7, stupid tranny





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post #20 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 06:49 AM
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Wow....talking about raising the dead here!

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Never said I didn't know how to use it."
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post #21 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 07:38 AM
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Yea, I bet after three years he has it figured out, or his tranny went boom a long time ago, LOL

"He was a wise man who invented Beer"--Plato
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post #22 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
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Wow....talking about raising the dead here!
haha didnt even notice!

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post #23 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 09:02 AM
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Well, going on two years of clutchless shifting for me and my bike is doing just fine. I only very rarely find a false nuetral. I'd say less than 1 in 100.

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post #24 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 10:01 AM
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I use the clutch but one time before I knew about cable maintenance my clutch cable started sticking when I went to a class. ended up riding about 50 miles home without using the clutch, I just blipped the throttle and it was nice smooth shifts every time.

I Don't try to explain to people why I ride a motorcycle
"For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who don't understand, no explanation is possible."

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post #25 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 11:45 AM
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Clutchless shifting's long term effects? It depends on how you do it.

When I first started riding I usually used the clutch to shift, but felt there was a better way to do it. Once I started to riding on twisty roads such as GMR I stopped using the clutch for upshifts and have been doing it ever since. I must qualify that by saying I use the clutch to downshift most of the time to prevent excessive engine braking when setting up for a corner -- slipping the clutch helps keep the rear tire hooked up under hard braking.

In the 40 years and well over 500,000 miles of riding hundreds of different motorcycles I have not had a trans failure due to wear or damage from clutchless shifting, and I tend to hang on to bikes for a very long time -- my '88 Honda Hawk GT, which I still have, has right at 150,000 miles on it and the notoriously weak trans was doing fine until a crash in a diesel fuel slick jammed the shifter hard enough to break a shift fork.

A quick overview of the internals of a typical motorcycle trans drafted on my CAD program:

Gears engaged. As long as there is a load from accelerating, decelerating, or steady riding the gears are locked together.
Engaged.JPG

Disengaged. When the load is interrupted either by rolling off/on the throttle or pulling in the clutch the engagement dog faces lose contact and the sliding gear is free to move. It takes very little time for this to happen.
Disengaged.JPG

Blocking happens about 60% of the time when engaging the next gear regardless of whether you use the clutch or not -- the shoulders of the dogs meet and have to slide scross each other to drop into engagement. This can be felt as a "step" in the travel of the shift lever.
Blocked.JPG

This blocked condition is when most damage happens. If too much force is applied to the shift lever, the film of oil between the shoulders is pushed out, resulting in metal to metal contact. As the dogs slide across each other the contact area decreases and wear increases, reaching a maximum just before they clear enough to engage, rounding the corners. Once there is enough rounding the faces will become angled, eventually pushing them apart with sufficient force to overcome the tension of the detent, causing jumping out of gear usually under hard acceleration, but eventually all the time.

In order to prevent this, apply only enough pressure to the shift lever to move it (plus a little) and keep this pressure applied until the next gear is fully engaged -- the false engagement of the blocked condition can feel like full engagement, but if you let off the shift lever at that point the only force completing the shift will be from the detent roller, which is insufficient and will cause partial engagement, false neutrals, or skipping/grinding.

Shifting without the clutch will not cause any more wear than with the clutch as long as you learn how to do it properly, and with experience can make shifts practically undetectable other than a change in exhaust sound.

Rob

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post #26 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanB View Post
The 919 has a big old solid clunky transmission that I suspect is well over engineered for the power output. It is not the nicest shifter out there by a long shot but it is solid..[/B]
If you only knew how many 2nd gears I have replaced in 900RR's

Anytime you shift without the clutch, no matter how good you may be at it, you are putting metal on metal into the dog slips into place period.

Worse yet all it takes is one good mistake to bend a shift fork & then you are really screwed.

Having said that I do clutchless upshifts on my track bikes all the time and don't give a damn if I tear out the tranny as the entire motor is disposable in my eyes.

On my streetbikes I almost always use the clutch and when I don't it's usually a very easy low to mid rpm snick into the next gear - never a full-on shift bang.

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post #27 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 03:28 PM
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Rarley use the clutch on the 1-2 upshift. And rarely at less than wot. Benfits of living in the middle of nowhere. Transmission is still in great shape. If you want, ride it like you stole it.
That said, if not at wot then I rarely shift without using the clutch. Its just more relaxed and easier to do. Especially at light throttle.

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post #28 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 05:09 PM
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Found my first false neutral at a track. RPMs went well past redline when I got on the throttle, and thought I had really screwed up my bike. Only been riding a few years, and I'd never even heard of the phenomenon before. I was seriously worried until someone filled me in. Still need a little more practice, i guess.

Anyway, I only do the clutchless shift thing when I'm really getting on it. In my case, only once in a while.

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post #29 of 34 Old 02-02-2010, 07:20 PM
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youre nutless if you dont go clutchless. up not down, down is bad....

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post #30 of 34 Old 02-03-2010, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UJM View Post

Hey, what about that false nuetral between 5-6? Anyone else hit that one and -

Well, the noise it makes, oh man!
I thought I was the only one... I never really knew what the problem was. I thought the previous owner beat the S outta my bike.

Thanks Rob for the visual.

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post #31 of 34 Old 02-06-2010, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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Wow forgot about this one yeah I figured it out, but mostly was the concern with the false neutral as mentioned between 5 and 6! Awesome info eitherway! Nice drawings Rob!!!!

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post #32 of 34 Old 02-08-2010, 01:58 PM
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Anybody try the powercommander quick shifter that cuts the ignition?

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post #33 of 34 Old 02-09-2010, 11:51 AM
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Anybody try the powercommander quick shifter that cuts the ignition?
I will take the lack of answers as a no.

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post #34 of 34 Old 02-15-2010, 07:55 AM
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I upshift clutchless and with clutch about half and half.
When riding normally I just put upward pressure on the shifter a second or so before I want to shift.
The bike won't shift until you chop the throttle. This method makes for smooth upshifts.

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