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post #1 of 29 Old 09-19-2014, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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sent to cycle world service

Hi Ray, I have a 2002 Honda 919 with a Power Commander 111.
In the spring a new ECT sender was installed to cure a cold start stalling condition.
This mostly worked, but as the temperature is now again dropping, the cold start stalling condition has become worse than ever.
The bike starts instantly and has throttle response as long as the start button remains depressed, upon release the engine immediately stalls, regardless of throttle position. The instant between starter disengage and headlight energize is precisely when the stall occurs. After several long seconds, guessed at by how cold it is, the start button can be released and all is normal. Its spoiling an otherwise fun bike. Many 919 owners have simply removed their PC111ís and never again had any problems, but I really like the throttle response the PC11 provides, despite years of this issue. A solution would be well received. Thank you.

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post #2 of 29 Old 09-19-2014, 09:59 AM
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A fix is way overdue.

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post #3 of 29 Old 09-19-2014, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
Hi Ray, I have a 2002 Honda 919 with a Power Commander 111.
In the spring a new ECT sender was installed to cure a cold start stalling condition.
This mostly worked, but as the temperature is now again dropping, the cold start stalling condition has become worse than ever.
The bike starts instantly and has throttle response as long as the start button remains depressed, upon release the engine immediately stalls, regardless of throttle position. The instant between starter disengage and headlight energize is precisely when the stall occurs. After several long seconds, guessed at by how cold it is, the start button can be released and all is normal. Its spoiling an otherwise fun bike. Many 919 owners have simply removed their PC111ís and never again had any problems, but I really like the throttle response the PC11 provides, despite years of this issue. A solution would be well received. Thank you.
Really? Having to hold the starter button down a few extra seconds on cold mornings is spoiling the bike for you? I agree that it's an issue, but I think we have a pretty quick and painless workaround that for me, made it a non-issue...

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post #4 of 29 Old 09-19-2014, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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it stalled so many times on me yesterday it was a joke, yes that spoils the experience for me because it reminds me too much of being stranded, get it?
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post #5 of 29 Old 09-19-2014, 03:35 PM
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I get it... It's a hassle but the benefits outweigh the issues to me. Much better throttle response and cleaner power curve, I'll keep mine...

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post #6 of 29 Old 09-19-2014, 03:51 PM
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is this something that will get worse over time?

Ive recently installed a power commander and if anything i noticed a slightly easier cold start (not necessarily cold temperature wise but the first start of the day) without the commander i would usually have to hold in the starter for 4-5 seconds. with the commander it feels like 3-4...

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post #7 of 29 Old 09-19-2014, 04:45 PM
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Asking Cycle World is almost as good as asking Obama.....

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post #8 of 29 Old 09-19-2014, 05:20 PM
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Seems like...

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post #9 of 29 Old 09-19-2014, 05:21 PM
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Yeah I never knew cycle world did service aside from tire changes, and even then I don't use them for that, but that is mainly price related...

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post #10 of 29 Old 09-19-2014, 05:24 PM
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I thought Cycle World was a magazine?

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post #11 of 29 Old 10-19-2014, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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fixed-again

i started it cold with and without the headlight plugged in using a CBR start/kill switch, it would not stall.
some members will recall i had the same result in the spring after installing a new ECT sensor. i was reluctant to admit that fix began to fail horribly when it got cold out, warm engine or not.
i am guardedly convinced this was a power supply issue all along, caused by the weak solder joint in the 919 start switch-headlight interface.
however this time i will not hesitate to say if it starts stalling again, but i did get a bonus R6 1/5 throttle tube mod out of it, so i might trash myself before it ever stalls
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post #12 of 29 Old 10-19-2014, 11:52 AM
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A lot of the Honda's, past and present suffer problems from weak solder joints in the headlight switch interface. On my Hawk one of the issues is that it is a light solder, so if you try and put a bulb in that has a different capacity than stock it will desolder the connections (and because the wiring is so thin the headlight is really dim). Usually most anyone will take and put a better solder spot on that connector, and if you want to up the ante on light potential, then use an alternative harness that pulls power direct from the battery and employ relays to switch things on and off. I'm thinking I might copy marylandmikes LED install and see if I can mod it to the Hawk so maybe I might avoid the whole wiring harness modification. I already have a 919 like bucket on the Hawk so that would work out awesome.

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post #13 of 29 Old 10-19-2014, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmoon692008 View Post
Really? Having to hold the starter button down a few extra seconds on cold mornings is spoiling the bike for you? I agree that it's an issue, but I think we have a pretty quick and painless workaround that for me, made it a non-issue...
+1000. Been doing the longer start button depress with zero issues now for several years. It's a non-issue for me. Plus it was a free work-around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
it stalled so many times on me yesterday it was a joke, yes that spoils the experience for me because it reminds me too much of being stranded, get it?
At this point, I think you have more going on with your bike than just the PCIII considering the CBR mods you've done, including the single undertail exhaust. That can change things a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SGKukov View Post
is this something that will get worse over time?
Been doing the longer start button depress without issues as stated. You shouldn't have any problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
some members will recall i had the same result in the spring after installing a new ECT sensor. i was reluctant to admit that fix began to fail horribly when it got cold out, warm engine or not.
I called it... Which sucks.

Sorry Drivit that you're having a lot of issues with the cold-start. It's a bummer for sure.

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post #14 of 29 Old 10-19-2014, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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i think i fixed it, i can't get it to stall anymore, hard to believe. for sure i'll come cryin if it starts doing it again. psyching myself up to stuff the wiring back into the headlight, can't wait to try the throttle. only performance mods are a slip on, flapper remove and pc111.

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post #15 of 29 Old 10-20-2014, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
i think i fixed it, i can't get it to stall anymore, hard to believe. for sure i'll come cryin if it starts doing it again. psyching myself up to stuff the wiring back into the headlight, can't wait to try the throttle. only performance mods are a slip on, flapper remove and pc111.
Didn't you post on another thread that you can crank with the kill switch off too now? Couldn't it be that the new switch is powering/switching things a little differently and not that the old switch was necessarily "bad". Does the headlight still turn off when you press the starter and turn back off when you release it? It seems to me mine always dies right as the headlight comes back on.

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post #16 of 29 Old 10-20-2014, 06:30 AM Thread Starter
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yes. the cbr switch seems more robust, i think the contacts are better, 7 terminals same as 919, it cancels the headlight but will not defeat the starter. if this fails the next step will be to connect the pc111 to a separate power supply.

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post #17 of 29 Old 10-20-2014, 09:38 AM
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It might be a symptom of a problem I'm facing with my 919. On cold starts, the trip meter and clock will reset to default if I don't hold the start button long enough.

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post #18 of 29 Old 10-20-2014, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carotman View Post
It might be a symptom of a problem I'm facing with my 919. On cold starts, the trip meter and clock will reset to default if I don't hold the start button long enough.

When the trip meter and clock reset it is usually a sign of a weak battery.


I had not heard of this problem with the Powercommander on the 919 and I have sold hundreds of them plus had one installed on my 919 that was flawless in its operation.

Is this the PCIII or the PCIII USB version that is causing the issue? Did you tap into the power supply specified in the instructions when you installed it or did you use an alternate power source? Any LED lighting and/or relays installed that you have spliced off of?

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post #19 of 29 Old 10-20-2014, 11:34 AM
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Bad ground connection on the frame under the tank will cause the odo/tripmeter to reset themselves


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post #20 of 29 Old 10-20-2014, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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there's posts going back for many years on this, enough to write an essay. i'm the only shmuck that won't let it go, no worries its fixed.

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post #21 of 29 Old 10-20-2014, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
there's posts going back for many years on this, enough to write an essay. i'm the only shmuck that won't let it go, no worries its fixed.
Interesting notion that you change switch and the issue disappears with the PCIII, but without the PCIII the factory switch is fine.

Does anyone know what the draw is on the PCIII? Still doesn't explain why 1 day it's fine and all of a sudden the problem pops up. Just thinking about this topic again is giving me a headache.

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post #22 of 29 Old 10-20-2014, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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its raining so i live one more day, throttle is nasty.......me likey
to summarize; initial installation of PC111 was trouble free for years for everybody and continues to be on warm days. then stalling issues slowly started appearing, intermittent at first, then more frequently and mostly cold temperature/engine related. Making the ECT fix a no brainer.
I think that wear&tear and crud&corrosion on contacts and solder joints, slight complexity and compromise of switch design and deteriorating ECT output all combine to cause enough voltage fluctuation when operated in cold conditions to effect the PC111. Suddenly wondering if punching the start button a few times before attempting a start would duplicate doing it 5 times during? anyway the new switch is of higher quality in all those aspects. i love the mod and hope i don't stall no more.

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post #23 of 29 Old 10-22-2014, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
i started it cold with and without the headlight plugged in using a CBR start/kill switch, it would not stall.
some members will recall i had the same result in the spring after installing a new ECT sensor. i was reluctant to admit that fix began to fail horribly when it got cold out, warm engine or not.
i am guardedly convinced this was a power supply issue all along, caused by the weak solder joint in the 919 start switch-headlight interface.
however this time i will not hesitate to say if it starts stalling again, but i did get a bonus R6 1/5 throttle tube mod out of it, so i might trash myself before it ever stalls
How does the R6 1/5 throttle tube mod effect the "snappiness" of the throttle. Even after installing my PCIII a couple years back I still have a fairly on/off throttle response. If the R6 tube smoothed the response out any I would be interested in doing this mod myself. Btw, keep us posted on the stalling issue. Having to hold the start switch down for 10 seconds or so is bit of a pain.

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post #24 of 29 Old 10-22-2014, 09:56 AM
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Describe the on/off response you are referring to.

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post #25 of 29 Old 10-22-2014, 10:25 AM
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It's somewhat difficult to describe. She doesn't seem to accelerate smoothly. When the very minute amount of slack is taken out of the throttle she jumps the gun. Almost as if there is too much slack in the throttle cable. I adjusted it earlier this summer to try and alleviate the symptom with no luck.

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post #26 of 29 Old 10-22-2014, 10:28 AM
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Is it just coming out of a turn or between gears etc?

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post #27 of 29 Old 10-22-2014, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
Is it just coming out of a turn or between gears etc?
You aren't asking me but I also have a pc3 on my 919 and also notice the throttle on/off transition. I don't find it hard to work with at all, but I wish it wasn't there. I notice it most when I'm following a car and stay in one gear but slow down and speed up without using brakes. No matter how slowly I roll the throttle it feels like 5% instead of 1%.

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post #28 of 29 Old 10-22-2014, 12:35 PM
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You aren't asking me but I also have a pc3 on my 919 and also notice the throttle on/off transition. I don't find it hard to work with at all, but I wish it wasn't there. I notice it most when I'm following a car and stay in one gear but slow down and speed up without using brakes. No matter how slowly I roll the throttle it feels like 5% instead of 1%.

That's why there is no coasting in motorcycle racing. When you coast it unloads the transmission and you build up slack between the gears, in the chain and the cush/drive hub. When you apply throttle again all the slack is then taken out of those 3 areas and you get a big snap/thunk that unsettles the chassis as the inertia changes. It is felt in a straight lines, but is much worse in a turn because when the bike is leaned over the more the chassis is upset the harder it is to steer so when the chassis gets the snap/thunk as you try apply the throttle on exit you are forced to let out of the throttle to let the chassis stabilize then reapply again which results in a second, but less harsh snap/thunk of driveline lash.


To alleviate the driveline lash you either have to be on the brakes or on the throttle even if it is just a tiny bit of maintenance throttle to get the transmission under positive load. If you follow that rule you will find almost all the driveline lash is eliminated and you no longer have to roll out of the throttle to allow the chassis to settle. This is mandatory on the racetrack, but works equally well on the street.

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post #29 of 29 Old 10-22-2014, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
Is it just coming out of a turn or between gears etc?
It's mainly as crime dog explained. More in traffic, stop and go at red lights and such. I don't notice it much if any at speed. Great info btw. I appreciate it.

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