Sato PcIII issue.... - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 26 Old 05-03-2006, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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Sato PcIII issue....

Not really but I wonder....cans do great.
On decel i get an afterburn pop like its to rich. Im running the .2 sato map with the accel pump enabled and what settings I would have to bring the bike back into the living room....

Is this normal?? No biggie but what setting on the accel pump feature are you using and what results>?

TIA

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post #2 of 26 Old 05-03-2006, 09:47 PM
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I have the same set up and the same issue! I don't remember what my accelerator pump is set at. I think it was the recommeded setting for street riding.

post #3 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegjumpflyer
Not really but I wonder....cans do great.
On decel i get an afterburn pop like its to rich. Im running the .2 sato map with the accel pump enabled and what settings I would have to bring the bike back into the living room....

Is this normal?? No biggie but what setting on the accel pump feature are you using and what results>?

TIA
The decel pop is a lean condition if I am not mistaken?

I had been running my accelerator pump at 25% sensitivity, 20 revs and 10% fuel rich before the Sato's. After, I loaded the Sato map tuned for "low throttle fueling to aid smoother shifting sato919-1c" and then the one for the "smaller core - 919satonew1".... (Both are Dan Kyle dynoed maps. I don't know which one is the one you guys keep calling .2?) I changed the accel pump settings drastically to see what happens.. went 90% sensitivity, 10 revs and like 10% rich. Yuck! too much fuel. blew black smoke when revved in my garage.. and the acceleration was seriously lacking... but it satisfied my curiosity that it made some changes. So.. I have since set back to close to what it was. Now I have 20% sensitivity.. much over 25% and the thing will always be on accelerating mode for every slight throttle increase. I set revs to 20 over.. . you can go up to 40.. (I think I will change to 40 without any other adjustment just to see if it makes any real noticeable difference.) and I only rich 5% now. I had terrible fuel mileage and I attribute it to many things.. but I have only changed the map and the accel pump and doing way less wheelies since my reckless driving ticket and I got an increase of 5MPG.. oh.. and even with switching to a 15t front sprocket. Also, I have loaded the M112-004 - Two Brothers full exhaust system map from DynoJet. This is the map I had before the Satos.... I seem to like it well enough. Prior to this map I was running the map I had made for my bike at the DynoJet facility in North Las Vegas last May... as I am sure it was a great map for that day in that heat (110°F).. I am convinced it was a ridiculously rich map for all but the hottest days. Plus I have been running the lowest Octane at the pump since last fall which seems to deliver more poop!.. and I had 91 in at the dyno run.. and have added a K&N filter since as well.

I am completely open to logically minded explanations of what the accelerator pump settings should be for desired affects.. but the most information I could ever get from DynoJet techs was a detailed explanation of what it actually is changing and that I should find my "preferred" settings.... but no real way to do that. I am convinced I need a small, small PC that I can connect to the PC3 and stuff in my tank bag. with this I could actually change settings on the fly. You can upload a map real time while the bike is running. You can change the idle for instance if you lean or richen the 1000 - 1500 RPM at the 0 throttle position, the send the map... so I know it can be done real time. The trick is getting a small PC with Windows and a USB port. I really need to work on that! I realize a wide band would be handy if I had bungs on my headers.... or another dyno run.. but I know the dyno run is subjective to environmental effects.. and driving to Las Vegas blows when its 110°F when you get there. No DynoJet dyno centers any closer to Salt Lake City. Gotta be some documentation somewhere about what works for these accelerator settings and why? It doesn't have to be bike specific info either. Just some info backed up by logic and a smart tuner. Anyone?

- Rev. CYCHO -

tires.... it's what's for dinner!
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post #4 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 05:39 AM
 
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Guys, do yourself a favor and stop trusting in those downloaded cookie cutter maps. Go get it custom mapped and the popping will go away. The popping is because the bike is running too rich and the fuel loads up in the exhaust and suddenly ignites from the heat OR you have an exhaust leak.

As far as the AP feature, uninstall it. It's just there to add more buttons for the user to play with and probably making your situation worse. If the bike is mapped correctly you don't need to add fuel to the map. Think about that. That AP is old technology from the carburetor days to make up for their inefficiencies. It is totally unneccesary for the EFI motors of today.

Trust me. Get it mapped and uninstall the AP. Your problem will go away and the bike will run much, much better.

If you're unhappy with your current map just download another map and try that one. For example, if you have a Leo Vince S/O you can run ANY S/O map. Same goes for the FS's. Just find one that is close to your bikes configuration. STAY AWAY FROM THE EURO MAPS. Unless you have a euro bike.

Moto, when you mapped your bike where was the A/F sensor and what kind of bike is it? The resaon I asked is there are three things that can make a custom map too rich.

1) The sensor was placed after the CAT.
2) The emmision valve was not disabled.
3) Bad tuner.

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post #5 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 06:07 AM
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post #6 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoCycho
(Both are Dan Kyle dynoed maps. I don't know which one is the one you guys keep calling .2?)
There were 2 maps at 919.org "919satonew1" and "919satonew2". The "2" map doesn't appear to be there now. LDH emailed me both of them a couple of weeks ago and told me that they are both maps that originated on Dan Kyle's dyno. LDH appearantly refined them for better street performance. I can vouch for the difference. Was running the Kyle map that came with the PC3/Sato package when I ordered it. It was an improvement over stock but was sometimes hard to start and ran a little hotter than normal in hot weather, even after richening it up a bit with the buttons.

When I loaded the "919satonew2" map it made a noticeable difference for the better. I haven't even messed with the AP function. I've always been told by mechanics more experienced than me that backfires on decel are the result of fuel loading up in the exhaust and igniting as it decels.

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post #7 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 09:45 AM
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If you download the Zip of all maps off LDH's page the 2 map is included even though there is no description for it

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post #8 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er
If you download the Zip of all maps off LDH's page the 2 map is included even though there is no description for it
Got the map.. I'll give it a try. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewRedRider
Guys, do yourself a favor and stop trusting in those downloaded cookie cutter maps. Go get it custom mapped and the popping will go away. The popping is because the bike is running too rich and the fuel loads up in the exhaust and suddenly ignites from the heat OR you have an exhaust leak.
I found an interesting writeup about the Exhaust Popping Noise. Basically.. "atmospheric oxygen" is getting introduced into the exhaust system and the unspent fuel vapors (I guess there will always be some regardless or rich or lean) ignite. Good read. Thanks for the clarity NewRedRider

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewRedRider
As far as the AP feature, uninstall it. It's just there to add more buttons for the user to play with and probably making your situation worse. If the bike is mapped correctly you don't need to add fuel to the map. Think about that. That AP is old technology from the carburetor days to make up for their inefficiencies. It is totally unneccesary for the EFI motors of today.
I'll disable the A/P and see if I can even notice a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewRedRider
Moto, when you mapped your bike where was the A/F sensor and what kind of bike is it? The reason I asked is there are three things that can make a custom map too rich.

1) The sensor was placed after the CAT.
2) The emmision valve was not disabled.
3) Bad tuner.
Bike: 2003 Honda 919 (at the time stock core removed exhaust)
1) Sensor was placed after the CAT because I don't have bungs.
2) He did disable the emission valve.
3) Had it tuned at DynoJet Research by Dustin Schaller, their Powersports Technical Support Manager... one would think?...

The sensor behind the CAT.. that's the reason... Bingo! Thanks for the good info.

- Rev. CYCHO -

tires.... it's what's for dinner!
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post #9 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 01:28 PM
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The popping is caused by the PAIR valve that injects fresh air into the exhaust port on deceleration causing any unburnt fuel to ignite inside the hot header.

If you disable the PAIR sytem the Popping will stop... The Popping does not hurt anything nor does disabling the PAIR system give you any change in performance.


the Accelerator Pump Feature is a good feature & it does work (quite well I might add)

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post #10 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 03:30 PM
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What are the accel pump settings one should run? I will be getting a PC soon to go with my new Satos & plan on using the "2" map.

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post #11 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 04:31 PM
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Not to Hijack...
But I Also have some Sato's coming I bought off JRatbike on here. Should be here tommorow, But the PC111 I ordered off Dan Kyle wont be here till Monday, How lean will it run If I put em on and run it this weekend, or to be safe should I wait till I put the Pc111 on?

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post #12 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 04:49 PM
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I ran mine with Satos and no PC3 for a week and all is well. The common opinion is that you can run them w/o a PC3 and it won't hurt it. You just won't get full benefit from them. The 919 runs rich in stock form anyway. Try it for a few days with just the Satos then with the PC3. It's interesting feeling the difference as you make the mods.

It's time to make some noise!

Enjoy!

The AP? Not sure myself. Think I'm going to give a try this weekend.

Anyone have any tips on how to set it up for the first time?

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post #13 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 05:35 PM
 
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He knows better then to tune the bike behind the CAT. That's the whole problem. The CAT leans the bike out so he was getting a false reading the entire time. You have to bung the headers or remove the CAT. Atleast do a 1 hole in front of the CAT.

Do you have a copy of your dyno map with the A/F readout on it? See, I'm wondering if he didn't tune the bike lean knowing he would be richer on the entering side of the CAT but not knowing by how much. So he just guessed and played it safe by running it a little on the rich side. That's pure speculation on my part though.

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post #14 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 05:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justintyme73
Not to Hijack...
But I Also have some Sato's coming I bought off JRatbike on here. Should be here tommorow, But the PC111 I ordered off Dan Kyle wont be here till Monday, How lean will it run If I put em on and run it this weekend, or to be safe should I wait till I put the Pc111 on?
It won't hurt anything. Ride away brother. You'll probably run a little richer anyway.

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post #15 of 26 Old 05-04-2006, 05:43 PM
 
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Razor, you can play around with it all you like. Try 85/15/20 if memory serves me correctly. Do you have a custom map?

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post #16 of 26 Old 05-05-2006, 07:21 AM
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No custom map other than the one that started out with Kyle and was tweeked by LDH. I have learned to trust his research because he obviously knows his sh!t. That's plenty good enough for me because the bike runs great. Sure that if I were to take it to a tuning center that would be the best case scenario but there seems to have been plenty of research that went into the Kyle/LDH maps and that makes them more than just "cookie cutter" maps IMO. It runs at the same temp now as when it was stock and the throttle response is instant. Do get a little of the popping that Pegjump started this thread with but it really doesn't bother me and I've known for some time as LDH mentioned that it not hurting anything. Would like to feel what I've read about regarding the AP. I am tempted to follow the rule of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but my curiosity is up now.

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post #17 of 26 Old 05-05-2006, 12:42 PM
 
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Well the only custom map is one made specifically for your bike. No matter who does the tuning. There's too many differences from bike to bike. With that being said, if you're happy with it then that's really all the matters. But keep this in mind, at the way gas prices are going up you may eventaully pay for the custom map in recovered gas mileage.

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post #18 of 26 Old 05-05-2006, 12:49 PM
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Yea & there are way more dyno hacks out there than there are qualified tuners. They will be more than happy to take your $300, but they either don't know how to map the bike properly or won't take the time to do it right. It happens all the time... I get at least 1 e-mail every week where some guy is complaining that his bike runs worse after a custom mapping than it did when it was stock or that he can feel no difference after paying someone to map it & believe me I have seen it all. From faked dyno charts from some of the most revered tuners in this country to maps that were so far out of whack that it was amazing the bike would even run & people payed good money for every single one of them. When they tell me they got a custom mapping done in an hour I know it was a shit job... It takes me 3-4 hours minimum to map a bike correctly.

I've got an article written on how to read dyno charts & what everyone should know about dyno mapping. It's basically an overview that explains how people can fudge dyno charts & common things that tuners do or don't do that will give you a less than optimal map.

http://www.rc51.org/dynotuning.htm

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post #19 of 26 Old 05-06-2006, 03:30 PM
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Observations:

Been out for a few rides with the New Sato(-2) map.
It really does shift smoother... However, for my bike, it just doesn't have the same "bite" as the NewSato(-1) Dan Kyle map.
I noticed the bike was not pulling as hard, and also a fuel smell which I do not get with the -(1) map.
I used the "Map Compare" feature in the P.C.III software and found that the (-2) map is indeed slightly richer in a number of cells over the original map.
Except for the improved shifting, I don't seem to be having the same positive results with this map as others here.
Z

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post #20 of 26 Old 05-06-2006, 07:04 PM
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Is increasing the map resolution to 250 rpm a good idea before sending to the PC? Looks like it takes the average of the cell above and below and puts that in the new row.

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post #21 of 26 Old 05-07-2006, 06:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er
Is increasing the map resolution to 250 rpm a good idea before sending to the PC? Looks like it takes the average of the cell above and below and puts that in the new row.
It doesn't change the map at all. It just gives the tuner a better degree of accuracy.

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post #22 of 26 Old 05-07-2006, 07:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter
Yea & there are way more dyno hacks out there than there are qualified tuners. They will be more than happy to take your $300, but they either don't know how to map the bike properly or won't take the time to do it right. It happens all the time... I get at least 1 e-mail every week where some guy is complaining that his bike runs worse after a custom mapping than it did when it was stock or that he can feel no difference after paying someone to map it & believe me I have seen it all. From faked dyno charts from some of the most revered tuners in this country to maps that were so far out of whack that it was amazing the bike would even run & people payed good money for every single one of them. When they tell me they got a custom mapping done in an hour I know it was a shit job... It takes me 3-4 hours minimum to map a bike correctly.

I've got an article written on how to read dyno charts & what everyone should know about dyno mapping. It's basically an overview that explains how people can fudge dyno charts & common things that tuners do or don't do that will give you a less than optimal map.

http://www.rc51.org/dynotuning.htm
Good read LDH! The biggest problem is people don't understand what they are buying so it makes it very easy for the tuner to pull a fast one on them. With some people, no matter how many times you explain it to them they still don't get it. Those are the ones that need to take their friend along with them that understands.

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post #23 of 26 Old 05-07-2006, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewRedRider
It doesn't change the map at all. It just gives the tuner a better degree of accuracy.
So all maps created with a PCIII that show the map in 500 rpm incriments, are no different after converting them to 250 RPM resolution with a PCIII USB? All the intermediate values are already there?

Before


After

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post #24 of 26 Old 05-08-2006, 07:07 AM
 
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Exactly. It's just a different view for the tuner/user. It just hides the 250 values.

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post #25 of 26 Old 05-08-2006, 10:13 AM
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Why are the +250 rpm lines always (and rounded if 3.5 or something) the average of the cells above & below?

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post #26 of 26 Old 05-08-2006, 11:10 AM
 
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I think that's just a coincidence that some appear to be "averaged" between the cells. Some of them aren't. However, if a custom map was created from scratch on the 500rpm scale, then the program might automatically calculate the 250rpm scale based on the formulas plotted curve. It certianly wouldn't be zero so it would need to find a middle ground. Other wise there would be a sharp spike or trough on the curve.

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