Sato/PCIII? - Wrist Twisters
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 Old 07-06-2007, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
orange
 
sbeau1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 9,193
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Donation Community Service 
Total Awards: 6

Sato/PCIII?

Just installed a set of new style carbon fiber Sato exhausts on my 919. Now I'm wondering how much difference installing a Power Commander would make to my bike's performance? The Sato's seem to have moved the power band up the RPM range a bit, it now feels a bit flatter at low RPM's but has more power as it revs higher than it did stock. Also seems to run a bit rougher at idle and under light throttle, and occasionally backfires when shifting and letting off the throttle. Is this due to the rich stock settings coupled with the more free flowing exhaust and can I expect a major improvement with a PCIII?

Love the deep rumble of the Sato's, just want to smooth it out and get better throttle response at low RPM's. If the Power Commander will do that then it's money well spent. I understand that Kyle Racing has a great map for the Sato's that they include with their PCIII's, just wanted to hear from some of you guys with this set up on your bikes before I spend the money.

FYI, it's an '02, 6500 miles, original plugs, no service done other than oil changes.

sbeau1960 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 07-07-2007, 03:53 AM
Ken
Community Admin
 
Ken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,396
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride Donation Extraordinary Ride Donation 
Total Awards: 4

From what I've seen here, you'll get varied answers to your question about adding the PCIII. There are some that added Satos but never installed a PCIII ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it.") There are many others that installed it to be able to play with the maps and fine tune the power. And then are those unfortunate few that have installed a PCIII only to have it die and send it in for replacement.

There are a couple really good threads around here that discuss the Kyle map and the Two Bros map (search 'map challenge'). I added the PCIII and found it be beneficial -- I like tinkering and it's fun to play with the maps.

While we're on the subject of Satos, you say you experienced a 'popping' on deceleration since adding the new slip-ons? That's what prompted semi_gray to fabricate his beautiful block off plates for removal of the PAIR system. Search for PAIR system removal for some information on this - you can solve the popping problem quickly, easily, and inexpensively. But the PCIII will not resolve this one.

2009 Honda Goldwing
Four wheels move the body. Two wheels move the soul.
Ken is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 07-07-2007, 05:00 AM
Shiraz
 
Simpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 2,684
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Outstanding Restoration Outstanding Restoration Donation 
Total Awards: 7

The backfiring can be is a direct result from your Air/Fuel ratio off. When you change a piece in an exhaust system, your air flow rate changes but the fuel rate does not. This change of the ratio and will most likely lean out the bike in ways not always desirable. The PCIII helps modify the fuel rate to "re-balance" this ratio for a norm target of (13 to 1). Hope this helps!

Simpson is offline  
post #4 of 21 Old 07-07-2007, 06:18 AM
Bitten
 
bloaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 5,451
Blog Entries: 1
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Community Leadership Extraordinary Ride Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 4

Popping also comes from an exhaust not being properly sealed. If your clams are not tight or the gaskets are not seated properly, etc...

Virginia Beach Remodeling
Spoiler:
Ride In Peace Marcus Randolph (Kahuna) 12/17/06
bloaker is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 07-07-2007, 06:19 AM
Cornicen
 
drivit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 530
Rep Power: 1
 
in a cave

i got an old lap top cleaned out and installed with only the power commander program. downloaded the 2 hoes 004 map-cause its closest to my setup, but the program can't find the file. i put it in my documents, stuff comes up about a zip file

drivit is offline  
post #6 of 21 Old 07-07-2007, 06:31 AM
Shiraz
 
Simpson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 2,684
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Outstanding Restoration Outstanding Restoration Donation 
Total Awards: 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
i got an old lap top cleaned out and installed with only the power commander program. downloaded the 2 hoes 004 map-cause its closest to my setup, but the program can't find the file. i put it in my documents, stuff comes up about a zip file
Make sure you are looking for the correct ext.

try typing "*.*" for the file. The wildcards will list all the files...

Hope this helps!

Simpson is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 07-08-2007, 07:06 PM Thread Starter
orange
 
sbeau1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 9,193
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Donation Community Service 
Total Awards: 6

I appreciate all of your input, I'm ordering a PCIII tomorrow.

sbeau1960 is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 07-09-2007, 09:29 PM
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,334
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

The Powercommander is more important than ANY choice of exhaust when it comes to extracting linear power from the engine & better throttle response. Even with the stock exhaust the Powercommander will yield more results with a proper map than just adding an exhaust will.

Fine tune the A/F ratio to the exhaust & you have a package deal that transforms the power delivery of the bike.

The popping you hear on decel is from the PAIR valve system injecting fresh air into the hot headers & igniting leftover gas inside the header.

LDH is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 07-10-2007, 04:50 AM Thread Starter
orange
 
sbeau1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 9,193
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Donation Community Service 
Total Awards: 6

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
The Powercommander is more important than ANY choice of exhaust when it comes to extracting linear power from the engine & better throttle response. Even with the stock exhaust the Powercommander will yield more results with a proper map than just adding an exhaust will.

Fine tune the A/F ratio to the exhaust & you have a package deal that transforms the power delivery of the bike.

The popping you hear on decel is from the PAIR valve system injecting fresh air into the hot headers & igniting leftover gas inside the header.
Lord Duckhunter, do I understand you have a customized map for the Sato application?

sbeau1960 is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 07-10-2007, 04:57 AM
Bitten
 
bloaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 5,451
Blog Entries: 1
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Community Leadership Extraordinary Ride Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 4

Custom schmustom.... if you did not have it made, it is not custom. It is someone else's map you are trying.

If a map is not for your bike, (the exact one you own - physically in your posession) it is not going to be perfect. LDH does has some maps he has made and worked great on his bike and well on others. However nothing will be as good as putting your own bike on a dyno and having a map made for your bike.
It is expensive, but so is buying a bunch of after market parts and not setting them up correctly.

Virginia Beach Remodeling
Spoiler:
Ride In Peace Marcus Randolph (Kahuna) 12/17/06
bloaker is offline  
post #11 of 21 Old 07-10-2007, 05:12 AM
Ken
Community Admin
 
Ken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,396
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride Donation Extraordinary Ride Donation 
Total Awards: 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by hondaf4iguy View Post
Custom schmustom.... if you did not have it made, it is not custom. It is someone else's map you are trying.
Everywhere I go, this is the message. It's amazing to me that with today's production technique and the tight tolerances on product, that there would be significant difference from bike to bike. But I'm waving the white flag to see for myself. I've run about 6 different maps over the last 4K miles.

So now I have an appointment this month to bring the 9'er to a local Dyno tuner and have him map it. It's a 3 hour appointment and is going to cost $300. I asked him if it was OK to hang around because I'm curious to see the process and I'd like to be there for test rides.

If anyone wants to chime in on how the process works, what I should expect to see, and what feedabck they should ask me for, that would be great.

2009 Honda Goldwing
Four wheels move the body. Two wheels move the soul.
Ken is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 07-10-2007, 06:40 AM
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,334
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

The problem with a "custom map" is finding a tuner that A. either actually knows how to properly map a bike and/or B. will take the time required to do it right.

I still get about one email a week from some guy that just spent $200-$400 dollars on a custom map that the dyno guy spent 35 minutes to 1 hour on & it turns out to be a worse map than the stock one the owner had in the Powercommander originally. I've seen very high profile Pro tuners make gross errors on the mapping & even fudge dyno sheets to make the owners think they got a new custom map when they didn't change ANYTHING. Even if you go to a shop that is Dynojet Certified it doesn't mean that the guy doing your dyno tune is the one that actually took the school nor does it mean he will take the time to do the job correctly & trust me there are lots of tricks to doing it right. I've got a small web article written about dyno tuning here.
http://www.rc51.org/dynotuning.htm

A good map is a good map period. As already mentioned production tolerances are so close nowdays it really doesn't make that much difference. Yes a totally custom tuned map by a trained dyno operator is the optimal way to use your Powercommander, but is it $300+/- worth of improvement over an already excellent map custom built by a master tuner? Most would say no.

LDH is offline  
post #13 of 21 Old 07-10-2007, 07:56 AM
Tirone
 
Bigbear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3
Rep Power: 1
 
Here, here, I've been using one of Mike's (LDH) maps for about 3 years on my bone stock Hornet and am very pleased with it. Thank you Mike!

Bigbear is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 07-10-2007, 07:06 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6
Rep Power: 0
 
My advice: Get the PCIII, get LDH's custom map, you won't be sorry. Forget the dyno unless you have access to a "good" shop that actually knows how to tune with a dyno. (a good indicator of whether a shop is "good" might be whether or not they sponsor a local race team, or the local club racers use them and/or work there)

I rarely post here so I might not have a lot of credibility on this forum, however I'm speaking from personal experience. LDH's Sato map is very good and will be a huge improvement over Sato's with a stock map.

Thanks,
JeffH

JeffH is offline  
post #15 of 21 Old 07-10-2007, 07:16 PM
Ken
Community Admin
 
Ken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,396
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride Donation Extraordinary Ride Donation 
Total Awards: 4

Thanks for that link, LDH. The guy I'm going to is certified and is a certified Dyno trainer too -- it was actually tough to get an appointment with him due to his training/travel schedule. He is largely considered the best here in NY by the track guys. But your link gives some great insights for those of us not well versed in the process. FWIW, I have removed the PAIR system.

2009 Honda Goldwing
Four wheels move the body. Two wheels move the soul.
Ken is offline  
post #16 of 21 Old 07-10-2007, 08:00 PM
Centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right Here
Posts: 1,329
Rep Power: 1
 
Ill just add a "here, here!" for Satos + LDHs map. Satisfied for 1.5 years now

Bryce919er is offline  
post #17 of 21 Old 07-10-2007, 08:36 PM
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
sugs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,843
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Just read LDH's article which mentions that current Honda ECU's automatically richen the air/fuel mixture as the engine gets hotter. I would think that the Power Commander would have to adjust as well, but I think its a fixed map based on rpm so how in the world could you ever have a perfect map with the Honda ECU constantly adjusting the a/f ratio? Would you need to have a map made for summer and one for winter? What am I missing here?

'02 Honda 919 - She's the only one for me!

sugs is offline  
post #18 of 21 Old 07-15-2007, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
orange
 
sbeau1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 9,193
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Donation Community Service 
Total Awards: 6

OK, got the PCIII installed last night, ordered from Dan Kyle with their new Sato map loaded. Wow, what a difference in performance! Low end power is back, idle is smoother, major wheelie machine in first gear, pulls fast and furious to redline. Still have some popping on decel, guess I'll do the PAIR system removal and blockoff plates next.

Easy installation, took less than an hour from start to finish and wasn't in a hurry. Looking forward to playing with it now and trying some of the maps that have been discussed.

sbeau1960 is offline  
post #19 of 21 Old 07-15-2007, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
orange
 
sbeau1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 9,193
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Donation Community Service 
Total Awards: 6


sbeau1960 is offline  
post #20 of 21 Old 07-16-2007, 04:02 AM
Ken
Community Admin
 
Ken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 4,396
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride Donation Extraordinary Ride Donation 
Total Awards: 4

For comparison sake, try out the 'Simpson map' too. It's located in a thread here called 'map challenge'. Post up your impressions.

2009 Honda Goldwing
Four wheels move the body. Two wheels move the soul.
Ken is offline  
post #21 of 21 Old 07-16-2007, 05:01 AM Thread Starter
orange
 
sbeau1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 9,193
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Donation Community Service 
Total Awards: 6

I plan to try that Ken, will let everyone know my impression of the Simpson map.

sbeau1960 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome