Reversed Battery Polarity, Need Help Bike Won't Start Now!! - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 133 Old 10-12-2009, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
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Reversed Battery Polarity, Need Help Bike Won't Start Now!!

I'm new to the forum, and I just bought a 2006 919 with 34,000 miles. I drove it before I bought it, and it ran great. The battery needed to be recharged so I took it out of the bike to charge it and when I went to put it back in (I pulled a stupid) I connected the positive to the negative and the negative to the positive. Needless to say it blew the main 30 Amp fuse, I replaced the fuse and checked the other fuses as well, they were fine. I changed the battery connections and started the bike, I let it run for about five seconds then shut it off, then I tried to start it again but it would not. It cranks over fine and the fuel pump runs when I turn the ignition on. When I crank it over for a little bit it acts like it wants to start but won't. I have checked the fuel cut off relay and the engine stop relay they function okay. I also checked the the bank angle sensor too. The bike does have a Power Cammander III, could that have something to do with it since it gets power from the battery and is not fused? I did remove the PC3 from the bike just to see if that would work, but it still won't start.
I am beginning to think that I might have fried the ECU.
If anyone could help me out on what to look for, I would greatly appretiate it.

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post #2 of 133 Old 10-12-2009, 04:42 PM
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Will it bump start? (roll it down a hill in neutral and kick it into gear) if yes then its still the battery, and get a new one. I have never had any luck with re-charging them...

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post #3 of 133 Old 10-12-2009, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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I can leave the charger on the battery and crank the engine over.
Do you think even then that the battery could be the culprit? I will give it a try tomorrow evening after I get off work.
I am just hoping that it's not the ECU.

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post #4 of 133 Old 10-12-2009, 06:54 PM
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If you can crank the starter well, the battery voltage is high enough to run all the electronics. Many IC's die with reverse polarity. If they don't they can develop a latent defect and die later. If the electronics had a series protection diode, things would have been much better for you. That aside, try startaing as normal but open the throttle wide open. Just a hunch on my part. Report back.

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post #5 of 133 Old 10-12-2009, 07:02 PM
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post #6 of 133 Old 10-12-2009, 07:16 PM
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throttle wide open and starting on 919 = no start

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post #7 of 133 Old 10-12-2009, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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I'll give the wide open throttle a try tomorrow, and if that doesn't work I'll get my four-wheeler out and try to pull start it.
Thanks for the replies guys, I'll post back tomorrow with an update.

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post #8 of 133 Old 10-12-2009, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007BruteForece View Post
I'll give the wide open throttle a try tomorrow, and if that doesn't work I'll get my four-wheeler out and try to pull start it.
Thanks for the replies guys, I'll post back tomorrow with an update.
I wouldn't suggest that (the four wheeler)... all it takes is a slight hill and walking/running the bike, put it in second and pop the clutch. I friend to help push is always nice, but not necessary if you can walk the bike.

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post #9 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 06:03 AM
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Everytime I tried to bump start a bike I just leave a black streak on the pavement and get really tired.

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post #10 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Sneaky Steve View Post
Everytime I tried to bump start a bike I just leave a black streak on the pavement and get really tired.
I get similar results.

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post #11 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 07:53 AM
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Yikes, you BBQ'd the electronics.
Replace parts until it works.
Meter verify all fuses...after that it will be expensive.
...
All vehicles need a DIY diagnostic port!

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post #12 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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Does anyone happen to have a ECU for sale? I would rather not spend $700 plus for a new one.

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post #13 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007BruteForece View Post
Does anyone happen to have a ECU for sale? I would rather not spend $700 plus for a new one.
Anybody close by have one that you can swap and verify first?

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post #14 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007BruteForece View Post
Does anyone happen to have a ECU for sale? I would rather not spend $700 plus for a new one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaJim View Post
Anybody close by have one that you can swap and verify first?
byrdman.....



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post #15 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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I wasn't able to push start since it is raining here.
I did try the wide open throttle, didn't work, I also tried jump start from my car, no go.
I think that I am going to have to order a new ECU, I don't know of any one around here that has one I could swap out and try.

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post #16 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 06:57 PM
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sounds like you probly fried the ecu, I have seen it many times on cars when people jump them backwards. you could also have damaged you rectifier by trying to jump start it with your car.

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post #17 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 06:57 PM
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Sooo....not to state what seems to be the obvious, but your solution then is to blow $700 and hope it works.....instead of paying a shop to actually diagnose your problem for what $75-100??

Or at the very least, buy the tools you need and do the research to actually find a confirmed problem and the solution to fix it. You might be right, and I might be a heel, but dude, your starting with the most expensive part???

Don't take me wrong, it's your bike and you have every right to do things as you please. But I guess I would have 2 opinions to offer ya at this point

1. If you feel the job is over your head, pay someone else, you'll save alot of money in the end

2. If you like the challenge of learning something new, ask questions, pay attention to the useful info from the "guys in the know" here on WT, follow the steps they suggest and........





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post #18 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007BruteForece View Post
I wasn't able to push start since it is raining here.
I did try the wide open throttle, didn't work, I also tried jump start from my car, no go.
I think that I am going to have to order a new ECU, I don't know of any one around here that has one I could swap out and try.
Byrdman has a couple spare ECMs. He offered to let me borrow one a few weeks ago when I thought I had a dead one. Turned out that after looking over the bike again, I found a broken wire going to the 1&4 ignition coil.

I would be hesitant to think you fried the ECM right off the bat.

Start troubleshooting with some basics like a spark test. Pull the number 1 plug, put the boot back on, then hold the plug against the engine while cranking the engine. Look for a spark.

Do you have a service manual? If not, you need to get one. It has detailed troubleshooting steps on everything. You can use a multi-meter with max voltage hold to test other electrical components of the ignition system.

If you don't have one, send me a PM with your email address and I'll try to send you the pages from my electronic copy. You should be able to download it yourself from somewhere, but I don't remember where I got mine.

Start with the cheap easy stuff then work your way up. My thoughts on buying an ECM were fixed with a couple $0.25 spade connectors.

EDIT: Here is a link to download it. Click Free User under the left meter. You will have to wait 90 seconds for the download to start, but it works.
http://rs157.rapidshare.com/files/47...-converted.pdf

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post #19 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
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The nearest stealership is 65 miles from here, and I talked with the service tech there and he said that what I have already checked is what they would check for and that there wasn't any way short of replacing the ECU to know for sure if that is the problem. And for them to try and diagnose the problem will cost more than $100 bucks.
I may have to take it to a shop, but I prefer to work on it myself.

I did do a spark test and it has spark, pulled the relays and used a 12 volt power supply to make sure that the were functioning. I did download a honda manual, right now I am waiting on the manual that you sent to download.
I will hold off on buying an new ECU, I don't want to spend $700

I kinda think that it is not getting fuel since it did start and run for about 5 seconds then I shut it off, then it wouldn't start again.

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post #20 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 07:35 PM
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I'm no good with electrical stuff, but I don't think anymore of this trying to pop the clutch or jump start is going to do any good if you can already get the motor to crank over with the charger and it still wont start. That stuff should only be used for when you can't get the motor to crank over at all.

Are there any other fuses that could be blown? If not I would check for spark and fuel. You probably know how to check for spark, and I'm pretty sure the fuel pump is electric so is there anything that could have been fried regarding it?

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post #21 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sscottab View Post
sounds like you probly fried the ecu, I have seen it many times on cars when people jump them backwards. you could also have damaged you rectifier by trying to jump start it with your car.
Why would jump-starting the bike from his car damage anything?!?!

I had some guys with a tow truck tell me using their cables and engine wouldn't work with a bike, because it was "too much current" and my bike would likely explode. They even hid behind their truck when I ignored them and just jumped it normally. That's not how electricity works.

As long as he didn't get the wires the wrong way around with the jump, it would work just fine. Except for the cooked ECU and whatever else, that is.

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post #22 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 07:44 PM
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dude.. pm byrdman and buy one of his ecu's.... i am sure he will part with one for much less than 700 bucks...

also ask him for a rectifier...



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post #23 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 08:07 PM Thread Starter
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I'm no good with electrical stuff, but I don't think anymore of this trying to pop the clutch or jump start is going to do any good if you can already get the motor to crank over with the charger and it still wont start. That stuff should only be used for when you can't get the motor to crank over at all.

Are there any other fuses that could be blown? If not I would check for spark and fuel. You probably know how to check for spark, and I'm pretty sure the fuel pump is electric so is there anything that could have been fried regarding it?
I check the fuses, they are all okay. I also have spark, and I can here the fuel pump run when I turn the ignition on.

I will PM byrdman and see if he has a ecu that I could get.

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post #24 of 133 Old 10-13-2009, 09:06 PM
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I'll let you borrow whatever you need until you find the culprit.

I don't think the ECU is cabbage though. I wonder if the Honda ECU has a memory like a car? Maybe disconnecting the battery for a few minutes will clear any trouble codes?

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post #25 of 133 Old 10-14-2009, 02:28 AM
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I have a buddy that is an Electrical Engineer; also very fast on his R6. He lives to diagnose problems like yours. Dealers around here know little to nothing about the fuel injection systems on bikes. I had a problem with my 929 a few months back. They gave me the service manual and said good luck.

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post #26 of 133 Old 10-14-2009, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
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Why would jump-starting the bike from his car damage anything?!?!

I had some guys with a tow truck tell me using their cables and engine wouldn't work with a bike, because it was "too much current" and my bike would likely explode. They even hid behind their truck when I ignored them and just jumped it normally. That's not how electricity works.

As long as he didn't get the wires the wrong way around with the jump, it would work just fine. Except for the cooked ECU and whatever else, that is.
When you use a car to jump start a bike the volts are the same and they both use 12 volt systems but the amps are a lot higher in a car then in a bike and it can cause the rectifier/voltage regulator to overload and burns it out, if you jump it while the car is running it is even worse because you now have the battery plus the alternator giving power. I wont say it happens everytime but i have seen it happen.

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post #27 of 133 Old 10-14-2009, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
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I check the fuses, they are all okay. I also have spark, and I can here the fuel pump run when I turn the ignition on.

I will PM byrdman and see if he has a ecu that I could get.
check to see it the injectors are working, even if the fuel pump is working if the injectors are not no fuel will get into the cylinders. easiest way to check injector pulse is to hook up a noid light but i doubt you have one but you can make one cheep, get a 194 bulb and socket at the local parts store, unplug 1 of your injectors an usuing the bulb put the 2 wires into the 2 pins for the injector then crank the engine and see if the bulb flashes as you crank.

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post #28 of 133 Old 10-14-2009, 04:40 AM
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noid light?

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post #29 of 133 Old 10-14-2009, 05:56 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byrdman View Post
I'll let you borrow whatever you need until you find the culprit.

I don't think the ECU is cabbage though. I wonder if the Honda ECU has a memory like a car? Maybe disconnecting the battery for a few minutes will clear any trouble codes?
I would like to try a different ecu just to see if that is whats causing the problem. In the meantime I will try to test the injectors.

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post #30 of 133 Old 10-14-2009, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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I made a noid light and checked the connectors at the injectors, they are being pulsed.

I also checked the ignition pulse generator voltage, I was reading about 0.01 volts and the manual says that it should be 0.7 volts. Do you think that this could be a culprit? What does the ignition pulse generator do? Does it control spark? I do have spark though.

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post #31 of 133 Old 10-14-2009, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007BruteForece View Post
I wasn't able to push start since it is raining here.
I did try the wide open throttle, didn't work, I also tried jump start from my car, no go.
I think that I am going to have to order a new ECU, I don't know of any one around here that has one I could swap out and try.
check the basics.are you missing spark or fuel? probably spark but check for injection pulse.you can do it with a test light one side power one side ground.no need to check all four just one .also check for power to ecu icu what ever computer

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post #32 of 133 Old 10-14-2009, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
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I made a noid light and checked the connectors at the injectors, they are being pulsed.

I also checked the ignition pulse generator voltage, I was reading about 0.01 volts and the manual says that it should be 0.7 volts. Do you think that this could be a culprit? What does the ignition pulse generator do? Does it control spark? I do have spark though.
ok so im late again. hum,spark and pulse check fuel pressure .i do it by spraying carb cleaner down the intake

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post #33 of 133 Old 10-14-2009, 10:20 PM
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Without thoroughly diagnosing the electrical problem swapping $$$ECU has risk, granted slight since your fuses are ok. Do extensive diagnostics with a meter and check for shorts before swapping. Disconnect the battery what is the ohm reading across them and the ECU power leads?

In AK my CBR600 stalled on a small bridge above a deep canyon. I swapped in a good fuse and it started, but blew again. A cool rider showed and gave me his fuses!!! I then took my time to diagnose it (not on the bridge and only had two fuses left!) and hitting the fuel pump with a wrench it came to life, so bypassed it with a hose until a Montana auto parts store.

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post #34 of 133 Old 10-15-2009, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2007BruteForece View Post
I made a noid light and checked the connectors at the injectors, they are being pulsed.
I also checked the ignition pulse generator voltage, I was reading about 0.01 volts and the manual says that it should be 0.7 volts. Do you think that this could be a culprit? What does the ignition pulse generator do? Does it control spark? I do have spark though.
It sounds like someone dumped a can of NOS energy drink in your tank. Which is not to imply that you might have, well you know, made a tiny mistake at a convenience store ...

But I digress.

If nobody sugared your gas, read on.

You have spark and injector pulse, therefore the pulse generator is working. This also implies the ECU is working. Every Honda car ECU I've opened up has a blocking diode (And a big sucker it is!) to prevent damage in cases like this, so look to the one thing not adequately addressed yet: fuel pressure. IF the fuel pump picked up enough crap to plug up the filter (it's in the tank next to the fuel pump), of IF the fuel pressure regulator is stuck wide open and is bypassing most pressure back to the tank you would get the symptoms you describe.

The simplest test to do is pinch off the return line between the FPR and the tank. If the engine starts the FPR is bypassing and should be replaced. Do not just leave the return line closed: pressure can go as high as 90 PSI, causing cavitation that will damage the impeller.
If not, dig the fuel pump out and check / change the filter.

And check for sugar while you're in there.

Rob

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post #35 of 133 Old 10-15-2009, 12:34 AM
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on mythbusters they tried the sugar in the gas.............

the engine kept running...

'Unauthorized' additives

* Drain clog remover: engine kept running. busted
* Bleach: car eventually cut out. The bleach also rusted up the gas tank. plausible
* Sugar: engine kept running. let the engine sit overnight and it still ran the next day. busted



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post #36 of 133 Old 10-15-2009, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
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on mythbusters they tried the sugar in the gas.............

the engine kept running...

'Unauthorized' additives

* Drain clog remover: engine kept running. busted
* Bleach: car eventually cut out. The bleach also rusted up the gas tank. plausible
* Sugar: engine kept running. let the engine sit overnight and it still ran the next day. busted
I'm a Mythbuster's freak, but just have to wonder about the sugar:gas ratio. A small amount of anything in 4.8 gallons could be potentially worse than a bunch of something in 27 gallons.

Maybe he meant 'Check for GAS while you're in there'

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post #37 of 133 Old 10-15-2009, 06:05 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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It sounds like someone dumped a can of NOS energy drink in your tank. Which is not to imply that you might have, well you know, made a tiny mistake at a convenience store ...

But I digress.

If nobody sugared your gas, read on.

You have spark and injector pulse, therefore the pulse generator is working. This also implies the ECU is working. Every Honda car ECU I've opened up has a blocking diode (And a big sucker it is!) to prevent damage in cases like this, so look to the one thing not adequately addressed yet: fuel pressure. IF the fuel pump picked up enough crap to plug up the filter (it's in the tank next to the fuel pump), of IF the fuel pressure regulator is stuck wide open and is bypassing most pressure back to the tank you would get the symptoms you describe.

The simplest test to do is pinch off the return line between the FPR and the tank. If the engine starts the FPR is bypassing and should be replaced. Do not just leave the return line closed: pressure can go as high as 90 PSI, causing cavitation that will damage the impeller.
If not, dig the fuel pump out and check / change the filter.

And check for sugar while you're in there.

Rob
After last night, the FPR is next on the list. I need to review the service manual a little more to make sure that I pinch off the return line, the manual for me, is a little confusing at times.

If that doesn't work I will pull out the fuel pump and filter and clean it.

The only thing that I did when I bought the bike till I got it home (12 hour drive) was to top of the fuel tank with 93 octane fuel that had 10% ethanol (ethanol = junk imo)

I'll post back tonight with an update. Thanks for all the replies.

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post #38 of 133 Old 10-15-2009, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barton664 View Post
on mythbusters they tried the sugar in the gas.............

the engine kept running...

'Unauthorized' additives

* Drain clog remover: engine kept running. busted
* Bleach: car eventually cut out. The bleach also rusted up the gas tank. plausible
* Sugar: engine kept running. let the engine sit overnight and it still ran the next day. busted
My sister tried that same experiment with one of her boyfriends (ex). She said that she put a ton of it in there over the course of a week and it eventually started smoking, but kept running. Obviously I didn't condone this behavior, but I did find it rather interesting.

Yes, I know this has nothing to do with the above, just found it interesting.

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post #39 of 133 Old 10-15-2009, 07:08 AM
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ethanol = alcohol = cleans your fuel system and rots some components not intended for ethanol use.

My dad took his boat to a lake in TN that only had Ethanol fuel. Until that point, the boat only had regular fuel in it. After a weekend of running Ethanol, his fuel filter clogged up with all the gunk the Ethanol cleaned from the tank. It quit running right, then stopped running altogether. After a few days of troubleshooting, he found the clogged filter.

Your meter may be giving you false readings if it...
1) is the improper impedance
2) cannot react fast enough to record the true peak value

I'd be leaning toward fuel related issue now that you know you have spark and have tested the injectors with a noid light.

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post #40 of 133 Old 10-15-2009, 08:48 AM
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Rob knows best! Sounds like the $5 ECU protection diode did its job!

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