Remapping? - Wrist Twisters
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 27 Old 10-21-2010, 09:08 AM Thread Starter
Tirone
 
smithdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 1
 
Remapping?

A buddy of mine recently purchased a 2006 Honda 919 equipped w/yoshimura TRS slip-ons. I have the exact same bike & now want a pair as well. The sound is awesome. I can't seem to locate any info re whether or not I need to remap. How does one remap? Also I've heard about power commanders but again am clueless. I was told that I don't need to do anything but I'm worried that part of the acceleration curve would be compromised. Thanks, DAS



"Too much is just enough 'cuz there's always room for one more"
smithdog is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 Old 10-21-2010, 10:24 AM
Cornicen
 
mambomonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 538
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride 
Total Awards: 1

You should be able to search this forum and find a lot of threads on power commanders. Your bike will run alright with different mufflers but it won't be tuned optimally. Fuel injected bikes are tuned for exhaust changes by using a different programming map than what is loaded at the factory. On the 919 it's done with a power commander (a model PCIII USB for us.) A lot of maps have been developed for the 919 and you can download one or have one sent to you by someone here. Ideally you'd take the bike to a tuning shop with a dyno to develop a custom map for your bike but that is splitting hairs since many have already done it for you.

mambomonster is offline  
post #3 of 27 Old 10-21-2010, 11:12 AM
Cat Herder
 
FlyCatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Winchestertonfieldville
Posts: 1,788
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Veteran Veteran 
Total Awards: 2

I put yoshis on my bike and essentially its fine. The 919 is generally rich from the factory and I don't know how different slipons affect that. That being said, I just got a PCIII yesterday and will try to do the install this weekend. It should fix the richness and hopefully the really lurchy low speed character of the bike. A little boost in HP wouldn't hurt either.

2015 Ducati Monster 1200S

"Anyone who says money can't buy you happiness has obviously never used money to buy a Ducati motorcycle."
FlyCatcher is offline  
post #4 of 27 Old 10-21-2010, 11:25 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,604
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyCatcher View Post
I put yoshis on my bike and essentially its fine. The 919 is generally rich from the factory and I don't know how different slipons affect that. That being said, I just got a PCIII yesterday and will try to do the install this weekend. It should fix the richness and hopefully the really lurchy low speed character of the bike. A little boost in HP wouldn't hurt either.
In the most absolute of terms, the factory ECU map is not Rich, nor is it Lean. Instead, it's "Lean Here" and "Rich There".

I trust all will accept LDH's excellent dyno work from the Moriwaki's he was tuning for. First attached is his last iteration, the Version 4 map that is still on the 919.org site for all to see and use. This was sea level based dyno work.
The second attachment is the custom map done for my bike with the Yosh TRSs on it. The work was done at 3500 ft altitude. LDHs map was the baseline map the tuner developed from. You can easily see the differences.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LDH's Mori Map V4.jpg (150.6 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg McRomo's 919 YoshTRS map.jpg (162.6 KB, 65 views)

mcromo44 is offline  
post #5 of 27 Old 10-21-2010, 11:28 AM
Cat Herder
 
FlyCatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Winchestertonfieldville
Posts: 1,788
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Veteran Veteran 
Total Awards: 2

Quote:
Quote:
I put yoshis on my bike and essentially its fine. The 919 is generally rich from the factory and I don't know how different slipons affect that. That being said, I just got a PCIII yesterday and will try to do the install this weekend. It should fix the richness and hopefully the really lurchy low speed character of the bike. A little boost in HP wouldn't hurt either.


In the most absolute of terms, the factory ECU map is not Rich, nor is it Lean. Instead, it's "Lean Here" and "Rich There".



I trust all will accept LDH's excellent dyno work from the Moriwaki's he was tuning for. First attached is his last iteration, the Version 4 map that is still on the 919.org site for all to see and use. This was sea level based dyno work.

The second attachment is the custom map done for my bike with the Yosh TRSs on it. The work was done at 3500 ft altitude. LDHs map was the baseline map the tuner developed from. You can easily see the differences.
I defer to the expert.^^^

2015 Ducati Monster 1200S

"Anyone who says money can't buy you happiness has obviously never used money to buy a Ducati motorcycle."
FlyCatcher is offline  
post #6 of 27 Old 10-21-2010, 11:39 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,604
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyCatcher View Post
I put yoshis on my bike and essentially its fine.
For sure yes.

You can put Yosh TRSs on a stock 919 without a PowerCommander. It will start, it will idle, it will get good gas mileage, it will sound nice, and it will make power. But, it will still be stuck with the same rotten factory map as the stock cans were, and be aggravated a bit more in that regard. I really noticed it in pokey slow or stop and go traffic in 1st gear, especially when the engine was hottish (mid gauge, right when the fan comes on).

mcromo44 is offline  
post #7 of 27 Old 10-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Cat Herder
 
FlyCatcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Winchestertonfieldville
Posts: 1,788
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Veteran Veteran 
Total Awards: 2

Quote:
Quote:
I put yoshis on my bike and essentially its fine.


For sure yes.



You can put Yosh TRSs on a stock 919 without a PowerCommander. It will start, it will idle, it will get good gas mileage, it will sound nice, and it will make power. But, it will still be stuck with the same rotten factory map as the stock cans were, and be aggravated a bit more in that regard. I really noticed it in pokey slow or stop and go traffic in 1st gear, especially when the engine was hottish (mid gauge, right when the fan comes on).
Pretty much on par with what I am dealing with. That and the belching smoke when I wring her neck. Although I don't see that, but riding partners have mentioned it. Can't wait to get the pcIII plugged in

2015 Ducati Monster 1200S

"Anyone who says money can't buy you happiness has obviously never used money to buy a Ducati motorcycle."
FlyCatcher is offline  
post #8 of 27 Old 10-21-2010, 11:59 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,604
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyCatcher View Post
Pretty much on par with what I am dealing with. That and the belching smoke when I wring her neck. Although I don't see that, but riding partners have mentioned it. Can't wait to get the pcIII plugged in
You will be happy !
Just make sure you synch the PCIII to the throttle positioner.
I've been down as low as 800 RPM in gear, no clutching at all, and just walked it along nice and smooth with nothing but throttle control.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #9 of 27 Old 10-21-2010, 02:28 PM
Pilus Posterior
 
AllanB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,101
Blog Entries: 1
Rep Power: 1
 
No need for one - and Yoshi state the same.

However as above a custom map will be optimizing your fueling. But then a PC3 with stock pipes can also do that.

I'm running the Yoshis, no PC and they are performing very well. I do however run a noise reducing insert in the end which must make a difference as it will be offering more back pressure (ie closer to 'stock').

The Yoshi pipes come with the inserts, however I found them very quiet, but it was too loud without them (for me) - so I've made a new set that has released a bit more sound but are still neighbor friendly. I'll post up a picture tonight when I'm home to show what I have done.

As a set of slip-ons I am very impressed (as per usual with Yoshi) - very well made, stunning welds, light, look superb, and perform well. I noticed a extra 'zip' in the midrange after fitting them - nothing huge but a bit more urgency there and the engine appears to be freer revving. And the weight loss was noticeable first ride flicking the bike side to side - not surprising as they are a high mount. I've left the stock Honda heat shields off mine - IMO they do not suit the pipe - the shields are round and the pipes are triangular - plus they hide the impressive welds and spunky wee springs. I'll grind off the shield tabs sometime.

AllanB is offline  
post #10 of 27 Old 10-22-2010, 03:10 AM
Pilus Posterior
 
AllanB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,101
Blog Entries: 1
Rep Power: 1
 
Here ya go.

Stock inserts at the back with the smaller size inlet. In front the new ones I've made with the same size ID for the outlet - length matches the Yoshi ones before they become smaller.

I made them out of alloy - there was a small doubt regarding heat softening them but I figured Two Bros and others use alloy on the outlet in a similar manner. My worries have been unfounded and they have survived a few good thrashings.

And yes - I could have just chopped the smaller bit off the Yoshi insert but I wanted to experiment and retain the Yoshi ones for Warrant of Finesses where they get fussy on noise.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Insert.jpg (367.0 KB, 16 views)

AllanB is offline  
post #11 of 27 Old 10-23-2010, 07:54 AM Thread Starter
Tirone
 
smithdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 1
 
Thanks for the info. Is the PCIII a program rather than a physical thing? How would I interface my computer to my bike? Tryin' to get my 48 year old head around all this technology isn't getting any easier. DAS



"Too much is just enough 'cuz there's always room for one more"
smithdog is offline  
post #12 of 27 Old 10-23-2010, 07:58 AM
"Whose ABBA ZABBA?"
 
Bigdaa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Goleta, California
Posts: 17,123
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithdog View Post
Thanks for the info. Is the PCIII a program rather than a physical thing? How would I interface my computer to my bike? Tryin' to get my 48 year old head around all this technology isn't getting any easier. DAS
Start reading here: Welcome to Power Commander, Power Commander V, Power Commander III USB and Power Commander EX Fuel Injection Module

Many things shall then be understood my chronologically similar compatriot.


P.S. Have you seen my friend Lloyd Christmas? He still owes me one freakishly large black party hat and a sweet little blue parakeet..

“In my opinion, the M1 rifle is the greatest battle implement ever devised.”
General George S. Patton
Bigdaa is offline  
post #13 of 27 Old 10-23-2010, 08:06 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,604
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithdog View Post
Thanks for the info. Is the PCIII a program rather than a physical thing? How would I interface my computer to my bike? Tryin' to get my 48 year old head around all this technology isn't getting any easier. DAS
Here's the brutal edit :

The bike's ECU holds the map and based on the map, instructs the injectors how long to stay open in order to inject a certain volume of gasoline. The PowerCommander is a "piggyback device" that has memory. The PCIII holds a map modification. The ECU map in permanent memory, simply gets modified by the PowerCommander map modification instructions. Does this help you ?

Late addition.
Re patching to your laptop.
The PCIIIusb has a usb port. This allows you to patch it to your laptop. Your laptop needs to have the PowerCommander software installed in order for the patching to be able to work.

Don't be spooked off by it. If I have been able to figure out what I have so far, trust me, anyone can.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #14 of 27 Old 10-24-2010, 08:40 AM Thread Starter
Tirone
 
smithdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 25
Rep Power: 1
 
Thanks all for your sage wisdom for my technophobic brain & no, I can't recall any Mr. L. Christmas. I checked out the PCIII installation instructions on their website & looks like even I can figure it out. I assume that once installed PCIII does the rest. Ah the miracles of our digital age... DAS



"Too much is just enough 'cuz there's always room for one more"
smithdog is offline  
post #15 of 27 Old 10-24-2010, 12:41 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,764
Rep Power: 1
 
not quite smith, you still have to calibrate it which is very easy to do, and then either load one of the maps already available on this website or get it dynotuned.

Pvster is offline  
post #16 of 27 Old 10-24-2010, 01:26 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,604
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithdog View Post
Thanks all for your sage wisdom for my technophobic brain & no, I can't recall any Mr. L. Christmas. I checked out the PCIII installation instructions on their website & looks like even I can figure it out. I assume that once installed PCIII does the rest. Ah the miracles of our digital age... DAS

Brutal edit as follows :

Install unit.

Install desired map.

Synchronize the PCIIIusb to the bike's ECU Throttle Positioner.

Forget about the PCIIIusb.

Enjoy.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #17 of 27 Old 08-14-2012, 06:14 PM
Tirone
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Portland
Posts: 1
Rep Power: 1
 
I can't find a map for my 919 with the Yosh TRS pipes and the baffles out. I live at relatively low altitude (300ft). Dyno Jet doesn't list this combo and Yoshimura doesn't list any PCIII maps. Aaaargh! Currently runnin a map based around Sato pipes.

SortArse75 is offline  
post #18 of 27 Old 08-14-2012, 08:25 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,604
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SortArse75 View Post
I can't find a map for my 919 with the Yosh TRS pipes and the baffles out. I live at relatively low altitude (300ft). Dyno Jet doesn't list this combo and Yoshimura doesn't list any PCIII maps. Aaaargh! Currently runnin a map based around Sato pipes.
PM your e mail address and I will send you two maps.
One being LDHs Moriwaki V-4 map converted from serial port to usb format.
Excellent map, and done at sea level.
The other is my custom map, TRSs @ 3500 ft altitude.
Try them both.
Be sure to also synch your PCIII to the ECU's Throttle Positioner !

mcromo44 is offline  
post #19 of 27 Old 08-24-2012, 10:55 AM
Tirone
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jersey City
Posts: 39
Rep Power: 1
 
I'm at pretty much sea level, and I had been using the Erion base with 5% positive adjustments to 2500 rpms and under. I was finally able to ride with LDH's Moriwaki map last night. Don't know if it's the power of suggestion, but my 9er felt smoother and sportier. Will try your custom TRS map on my next high speed ride.

And one question... I have the PC3 UBS. When adjusting my table, it only goes in increments of 500 rpm, whereas your maps are in 250 rpm increments. Does this have any import?

2003 919
Yoshimura TRS
Power Commander
Renthal UL
Tower is offline  
post #20 of 27 Old 08-24-2012, 11:09 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,604
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower View Post
I'm at pretty much sea level, and I had been using the Erion base with 5% positive adjustments to 2500 rpms and under. I was finally able to ride with LDH's Moriwaki map last night. Don't know if it's the power of suggestion, but my 9er felt smoother and sportier. Will try your custom TRS map on my next high speed ride.

And one question... I have the PC3 UBS. When adjusting my table, it only goes in increments of 500 rpm, whereas your maps are in 250 rpm increments. Does this have any import?
1
With TRSs on.
I started with Erion map.
It was better than stock.
But not very good.
Went to the LDH Mori v-4 map.
WOW
Huge improvement. Even my wife noticed the actual exhaust note at idle was different. Less stink on rides as well.
My final map is best described as tinkering of LDH's, even the tuner said so.

2
The 250 increments is a display option.
Just go to Tools and see Maximize Map Resolution (not possible with old software for those with serial port PC3s)
It doesn't change anything, but it does reveal more.
BUT mapping in 500s is not ideal as compared to being able to do it in 250s.
This should only be a real world factor in razor sharp tuned peaky race engines re flat spots.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #21 of 27 Old 08-24-2012, 11:18 AM
Tirone
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jersey City
Posts: 39
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
1
With TRSs on.
I started with Erion map.
It was better than stock.
But not very good.
Went to the LDH Mori v-4 map.
WOW
Huge improvement. Even my wife noticed the actual exhaust note at idle was different. Less stink on rides as well.
My final map is best described as tinkering of LDH's, even the tuner said so.

2
The 250 increments is a display option.
Just go to Tools and see Maximize Map Resolution (not possible with old software for those with serial port PC3s)
It doesn't change anything, but it does reveal more.
BUT mapping in 500s is not ideal as compared to being able to do it in 250s.
This should only be a real world factor in razor sharp tuned peaky race engines re flat spots.

Good to know.
For me anyway, I got more stink with LDH's map.

2003 919
Yoshimura TRS
Power Commander
Renthal UL
Tower is offline  
post #22 of 27 Old 08-24-2012, 06:44 PM
Tirone
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jersey City
Posts: 39
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
PM your e mail address and I will send you two maps.
One being LDHs Moriwaki V-4 map converted from serial port to usb format.
Excellent map, and done at sea level.
The other is my custom map, TRSs @ 3500 ft altitude.
Try them both.
Be sure to also synch your PCIII to the ECU's Throttle Positioner !
Tell me more about synching the throttle positioner. What is this and how do you do it?

2003 919
Yoshimura TRS
Power Commander
Renthal UL
Tower is offline  
post #23 of 27 Old 08-24-2012, 06:56 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,604
Rep Power: 1
 
Synch the PC III to the T P first.
Think of it this way.
The basic map is in the ECU which the T P is connected to.
The PCIII is a piggy back device.
It does not hold a map, and instead holds a map adjustment.
So when your ECU is ready to send a pulse width signal to the fuel injectors, the PCIII makes a small adjustment to the pulse width signal.
The ECU map is a co-ordinate map based on a matrix of % Throttle Opening X RPM.
The PCIII adjustment is written into a matching co-ordinate map.
Now think of the two maps as two grids that have to be perfectly aligned with one another, just like two pieces of graph paper stacked so the lines are exactly matched.
When you synch the PCIII to the T P, it's just like the graph paper analogy I described above.
To give you an idea of what can happen if you don't, here is a real world example. Engine at 2 % throttle opening, RPM @ 1500. PCIII Closed Throttle Position error of + 3 %. What happens is that the PCIII will alter the ECU 2 % x 1500 RPM output with a 5 % x 1500 RPM based pulse width adjustment, and the fueling will be wrong for the actual engine condition.
My 919 was out 2 %.
My son's 600 GSXR was out 5 % !

You need to connect a computer to the PC3 to do the synching.
PC has a free tutorial on how to do it.
It is easy.
919s are super easy, patch your computer to the PC3, and simply turn your key on to "run". No need to use the 9 volt battery, no need to have the engine running.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #24 of 27 Old 08-27-2012, 08:25 AM
Tirone
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jersey City
Posts: 39
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
You need to connect a computer to the PC3 to do the synching.
PC has a free tutorial on how to do it.
It is easy.
919s are super easy, patch your computer to the PC3, and simply turn your key on to "run". No need to use the 9 volt battery, no need to have the engine running.
Thanks for the tutorial.
I used the Yoshi map and reset the TP. But I couldn't figue out how to do it without the engine running. Zero throttle was easy, but the fully open throttle was tricky. The engine spins to redline so fast in neutral!

In any case, every time I adjust the FI with the power commander, it just feels and sounds better.

2003 919
Yoshimura TRS
Power Commander
Renthal UL
Tower is offline  
post #25 of 27 Old 08-27-2012, 08:39 AM
Tirone
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jersey City
Posts: 39
Rep Power: 1
 
Just looking over the tutorial again.
To set the open throttle without having the engine running, am I supposed to have the ignition on and the kill switch to "run"?
I'll try that tonight.

2003 919
Yoshimura TRS
Power Commander
Renthal UL
Tower is offline  
post #26 of 27 Old 08-27-2012, 11:30 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,604
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tower View Post
Just looking over the tutorial again.
To set the open throttle without having the engine running, am I supposed to have the ignition on and the kill switch to "run"?
I'll try that tonight.
919 just needs the key in on position and kill switch in run.
The engine does not need to be running.

But, this is not true of all bikes.
Our GSX-Rs need the engines running.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #27 of 27 Old 08-28-2012, 12:44 PM
Tirone
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jersey City
Posts: 39
Rep Power: 1
 
Success!!
I think it was off close to 10% (0% throttle changed from 2000 to 2200).

2003 919
Yoshimura TRS
Power Commander
Renthal UL
Tower is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome