Ram/Cool air - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 42 Old 10-11-2010, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Ram/Cool air

Was thinking about this today by accident.....while mounting temp sensors for my new koso gauge. i mounted a temp sensor on the air intake. While at speed....the air temp at the intake of the air box is close to 15-20 degrees hotter than the ambient air temp.

1. Why did Honda face the air intake backwards out of the flow of the air?

2. Has anyone ever tried to duct cool air from the front of the bike to the air box?

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post #2 of 42 Old 10-11-2010, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
Was thinking about this today by accident.....while mounting temp sensors for my new koso gauge. i mounted a temp sensor on the air intake. While at speed....the air temp at the intake of the air box is close to 15-20 degrees hotter than the ambient air temp.

1. Why did Honda face the air intake backwards out of the flow of the air?

2. Has anyone ever tried to duct cool air from the front of the bike to the air box?

You could... but without fairings to hide stuff.... its likely to look hideous!

And how are you getting your temps... is the ambient and intake air temp being taken by 2 of the same temp probes? or are u using an aftermarket ambient, and the stock in the airbox IAT?

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post #3 of 42 Old 10-11-2010, 10:41 PM
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I have seen a pix somewhere of a 919 with a trumpet attached to the intake facing forward. No idea if it worked well, probably only a seat-o-pants review anyway.

Once you start farting around with air boxes you tend to open up a whole lot of problems. The factory tend to get these things pretty right nowadays. Even with forced induction I understand there is a still air-box.

Facing it backwards also avoids unwanted water injection on wet days, and if forwards surely it would be pointed at the engine and suck in even hotter air.

There is always the little considered baked-bean injection - this involves the rider living on a diet of baked beans and a funnel being inserted in to the seat with a tube leading directly in to the air box.

The main risk of this system is a backfire through the intake system and consequent fire racing UP the inlet tube to the riders buttocks. Just picture a sausage on a barbecue .....

A secondary risk noted by the inventor was, when riding the bike very hard and encountering the inevitable "oh heck' moment mid-corner, a riders bowels could unexpectedly discharge and block the intake system resulting in immediate engine shut-down.

And thirdly, as you can imagine to ensure a maximum amount of 'gas' is injected into the intake a rider must wear pants with a 'outlet' hole in the rear. All very well if your local is the Blue Oyster Club, but obviously presenting social problems anywhere else.

I'll be here all evening offering technical advise on your 9ers - feel free to ask any questions.


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post #4 of 42 Old 10-11-2010, 10:46 PM
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lololol wtf

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post #5 of 42 Old 10-11-2010, 10:48 PM
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I just tried searching for threads on the subject, and didn't really come up with anything, but I know that Pacojerte & Basspiece and a few others have experimented with Ram-air scoops. last time I talked with him, Basspiece sill had his (which he bought from Paco, IIRC) on his 919...but BP has not been on here recently. I don't really remember who all had done this mod... The way it was accomplished was by removing the stock snorkel and fabricating a plastic/fiberglass scoop which attaches to the airbox in place of the stock piece (facing forward obviously).

I think the end result was that it was effective as an attention getter, if not actually increasing HP or anything. You will get bonus bragging rights when you're hanging out with your squid buddies telling them all about how your scoop adds at least 70-80 horsepower...

Well, fire the engines! Spur this iron space-pony on!

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post #6 of 42 Old 10-11-2010, 10:54 PM
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FOUND IT

Honda 919 Modifications - SWMOSPORTBIKES.COM

Still think baked beans are better ............ or Nachos - hmmmm nachos.

Or red sex-trumpet intake...... hmmm sex-trumpet .........
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post #7 of 42 Old 10-11-2010, 11:13 PM
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Allan's "sex trumpet" is more of a velocity stack than a proper Ram-Air scoop...just saying.

....But, whatever floats your boat!




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post #8 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
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Allan's "sex trumpet" is more of a velocity stack than a proper Ram-Air scoop...just saying.
Very true - but I thought it would be a bit rude to call it a

Ram-Air-Sex-Trumpet

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post #9 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 03:45 AM
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TK919 was making some for awhile. Here's one version he made.



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post #10 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 04:53 AM
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Here are some from the h9r archieves, some dating back to 2002














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post #11 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 07:43 AM
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TK919 was making some for awhile. Here's one version he made.


This one looks pretty damn cool!

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post #12 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
Was thinking about this today by accident.....while mounting temp sensors for my new koso gauge. i mounted a temp sensor on the air intake. While at speed....the air temp at the intake of the air box is close to 15-20 degrees hotter than the ambient air temp.

1. Why did Honda face the air intake backwards out of the flow of the air?

2. Has anyone ever tried to duct cool air from the front of the bike to the air box?
1
Between packaging visuals for the intended market segment and more importantly, noise control, Honda arranged their entry the way they did. If you want insight into the noise aspect, block your flapper open, leave the sidecover off, and go for a ride.

2
Many have. I have never seen anything documented as to the net effect. The spiffy red trumpet someone did, would likely be a howler. Also, motorcycle intake airboxes are actually very complex designs. As a rule, for broad range of street riding that an engine sees, butchering or removing airboxes makes things worse. I'm guessing that a MAP sensor might see varying pressures under certain scenarios if the air box is messed with.

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post #13 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 08:07 AM Thread Starter
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Think the 'honda' option looks like the best design thus far...... its far enough forward to help reduce engine heat from getting to the intake.

-- Allan has a serious point about water entering the system if its pointed forward though.

--- I'm with you mcromo44.... wondering how much those designs mess with the air/fuel ratio.

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post #14 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
1
Between packaging visuals for the intended market segment and more importantly, noise control, Honda arranged their entry the way they did. If you want insight into the noise aspect, block your flapper open, leave the sidecover off, and go for a ride.
Someone please help me understand. The flap is supposed to be closed unless at highway speed? In this pic, the flap is open. At what point does it close and then open again? Mine is always like this.
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post #15 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 11:23 AM Thread Starter
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Mine is always open.....

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post #16 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 12:02 PM
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919 Intake Air Duct Control Diaphragm re "Flapper Valve"

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Someone please help me understand. The flap is supposed to be closed unless at highway speed? In this pic, the flap is open. At what point does it close and then open again? Mine is always like this.
I'm not sure "when" it is supposed to be closed or partially closed, but know that intake noise is at least one reason, and some intake harmonics might also be part of it. I did an experiment on mine and see the attached notes. I took off the side cover and went for ride. It made lots of noise, and I got some weird "waffling" sound at steady state flat road 60 mph cruise condition. I also did some vacuum gauge checks on the flapper valve actuating diaphragm.
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post #17 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
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Someone please help me understand. The flap is supposed to be closed unless at highway speed? In this pic, the flap is open. At what point does it close and then open again? Mine is always like this.
it will only close when the engine is running (so a vacuum source) and rpms are under 5500. (given enough vacuum is stored in the storage canister)

Regardless... my WHOLE flapper system has been removed (flap, vacuum cylinder, vacuum switch, vacuum canister....) and capped off at the T above the throttle boddies.

Along with the whole EVAP system... took that ungodly looking charchol canister, its receptive vacuum switch, and tubing off as well, and capped off at each individual Tbody.


========

As far as the ram air... that honda one looks like it would pull air RIGHT fresh out of the nice hot rad... its above the frame slider, and thus directly behind the rad!

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post #18 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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Regardless... my WHOLE flapper system has been removed (flap, vacuum cylinder, vacuum switch, vacuum canister....) and capped off at the T above the throttle boddies.
I've also removed all this stuff down to the throttle bodies....my flapper control selonoid has been unplugged & removed. Runs beautifully.

Between that stuff, EVAP, and PAIR..... I have a whole box of stuff.....stuff adding weight to the bike and making general maintence more difficult.

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post #19 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
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it will only close when the engine is running (so a vacuum source) and rpms are under 5500. (given enough vacuum is stored in the storage canister)
I was going to remove it as well, but like Mcromo, I can't find a scenario in which it closes. Engine running below 5500rpm? Never closes. I revved it over 6K with no results. I figured maybe it needs a load to close but mcromo rode his at highway speeds and his never closed. Doesn't serve a "real" purpose anyway, so may as well just take it off. Probably do that along with the PAIR removal when I get a chance.

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post #20 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 12:39 PM
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Haven't we been on the Flapper subject before? The way I understand it, the flapper is not controlled solely by vacuum, but also by a computer-controlled solenoid. I noticed very little (if nothing) when I unhooked the flapper so I just left it disconnected.

Press Any Key To Continue.
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post #21 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Yep, let's get back to ram/cool air.....

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post #22 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 04:41 PM
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There are some very indepth & heated discussions on this site about ram-air mods on the 919

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post #23 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 05:20 PM
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IF I'd want to experiment with it (nah...)
I'd be inclined to remove the stock filter completely effectively enlarging the air-box and then adapt something like a Harley Screaming Eagle pod filter unit on the outside. It will offer positive, water resistant filtering and a considerable increase in air-box volume. If it is set up to suck enough air for a big-block 1600 plus cc twin it will flow plenty of volume for a 9er.
It would be a relatively easy mod & why try to reinvent the wheel if you can adapt something existing. A few hours making a alloy adaptor for the existing air box and new SC pipe would do the trick.

And it would look F-n cool - Giddity.

You'd want a dyno and a PC3 to set and test it though.
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post #24 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 05:36 PM
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An article I wrote on the subject with some pertinent info towards the 919 even though the piece was written for the RC51

Pay special attention to the parts about airbox resonance as most you have probably experienced the racket the 919 makes between 3500-4500 rpm under load

ROGUE RC51 Airfilter questions page

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post #25 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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Whats wrong with K&N? ha, ha..... LDH, Thats a good read..... man.... I've read that before at some point.

Seriously though ---- the only reason I started the thread was the realization that the motor throws a good amount of heat back into the air intake because of where its placed. No intention of modifying the air box, or swapping out the Honda filter...

At least on the RC, your air intake is coming in from the front of the bike. How much does Intake Length & Size effect the pressurization & resonance of the air box? My initial guess is that its all part of the 'tuned' system and works as a whole.

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post #26 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanB View Post
IF I'd want to experiment with it (nah...)
I'd be inclined to remove the stock filter completely effectively enlarging the air-box and then adapt something like a Harley Screaming Eagle pod filter unit on the outside. It will offer positive, water resistant filtering and a considerable increase in air-box volume. If it is set up to suck enough air for a big-block 1600 plus cc twin it will flow plenty of volume for a 9er.
It would be a relatively easy mod & why try to reinvent the wheel if you can adapt something existing. A few hours making a alloy adaptor for the existing air box and new SC pipe would do the trick.

And it would look F-n cool - Giddity.

You'd want a dyno and a PC3 to set and test it though.
problem is something like that really isnt ram air at all.... the font of the cone is almost completely blocking the actual parallel path of the tube.

Now if you had just the curved tube WITHOUT the cone filter, with the original filter still in the airbox then you would get SOME ram air effect.

Plus why would you EVER put something from harley on a 919... thats like, blasphemy!

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post #27 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
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problem is something like that really isnt ram air at all...
Plus why would you EVER put something from harley on a 919... thats like, blasphemy!

Yeah - I was thinking about that after I posted - more like 'big-suck-air' than ram. Still it would be interesting if the additional air-box space (removal of stock filter and extension tube volume) make any difference.

Re Harley bits .........

It is a Screaming Eagle part - so it is a 'performance' bit

I have a theory about Harleys...........

Goes like this:

HD R&D make a new engine - HD marketing men come along and ride it. Marketing come back and say - holy shit that is way to quick and grunty - can you dumb it down 20% and then we'll market the quick bits as Screaming Eagle upgrades and make millions.

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post #28 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
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Yeah - I was thinking about that after I posted - more like 'big-suck-air' than ram. Still it would be interesting if the additional air-box space (removal of stock filter and extension tube volume) make any difference.

Re Harley bits .........

It is a Screaming Eagle part - so it is a 'performance' bit

I have a theory about Harleys...........

Goes like this:

HD R&D make a new engine - HD marketing men come along and ride it. Marketing come back and say - holy shit that is way to quick and grunty - can you dumb it down 20% and then we'll market the quick bits as Screaming Eagle upgrades and make millions.
eh naw..... even the buell HD motors sucked ass!

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post #29 of 42 Old 10-12-2010, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
Plus why would you EVER put something from harley on a 919... thats like, blasphemy!

The harley parts would solve that problem you're having where the 919 doesn't leak oil, and it would solve the other problem about how it's really reliable and doesn't break (except rarely).




Ok, so that joke was too easy. so sue me.




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post #30 of 42 Old 10-13-2010, 02:34 AM
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IMHO, based on what I've read on several different forums, there are gains to be made from some standard type bikes by modifying the airbox and inserting a hi flo filter. By standard, I mean FZ1s, Zrexs, Super Dukes. Most standard bike engines are detuned, so why try to wring every pony out of them from the factory?

The RR type bikes are a different beast. I've had 2 RR types, a 929 (which I gave to my son) and an 07 600RR. Those bikes are set up to a higher level of performance, and every componant is a tuned part of the system. I left mine stock.

I used a holesaw to cut a hole in the side of the snorkel on my 919. When I put my hand over the hole, I could feel air going in when I revved it. More than likely, a feel good thing, but I will say that the bike runs pretty damm good.

Unrelated? I've also read of guys cutting holes in the airboxes of 4 stroke dirtbikes like the CRFs and WRs and YZs. My KTM XC200W doesn't really even have an airbox.

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post #31 of 42 Old 10-13-2010, 05:58 AM Thread Starter
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That's were Ive come from.....just got done owning a Ktm 625 smc supermoto and a Yamaha WR426 dualsport...... The KTM showed huge gains during it's 'uncorking'....part of which was drilling holes in the airbox. Granted....it took alot of jetting to get it right.

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post #32 of 42 Old 10-14-2010, 09:43 PM
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RE: Duckhunter

That rapping sound around 4,000 under load is pleasing to my ears. I don't know what causes it, but, I like it.
I took the flapper, solenoid, door, vacum piece, and hoses off mine and put the snorkel back on, about 37,000 miles ago.

[
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post #33 of 42 Old 10-16-2010, 07:22 PM
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[QUOTE=brokerecord;417790]That rapping sound around 4,000 under load is pleasing to my ears. QUOTE]

+1, I love that sound, I'll never get tired of that.

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post #34 of 42 Old 10-16-2010, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
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That rapping sound around 4,000 under load is pleasing to my ears.
+1, I love that sound, I'll never get tired of that.
ahha ya me too... ill often find myself short shifting to keep the rpms right in that 3500-4000rpm range just to hear that sound.

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post #35 of 42 Old 10-16-2010, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
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ahha ya me too... ill often find myself short shifting to keep the rpms right in that 3500-4000rpm range just to hear that sound.
I can't wait to hear it tomorrow!

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post #36 of 42 Old 06-06-2012, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh

ahha ya me too... ill often find myself short shifting to keep the rpms right in that 3500-4000rpm range just to hear that sound.
+1

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post #37 of 42 Old 06-06-2012, 10:17 PM
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This thread was 2 years ago...

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Nothing at the moment

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post #38 of 42 Old 06-06-2012, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
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This thread was 2 years ago...
Lol. I'm glad he brought this up. Actually, I went to do the flapper mod tonight and as I got to it , the previous owner had done it .I also started thinking about different ways.

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post #39 of 42 Old 06-07-2012, 03:50 AM
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I also love that howling noise it lets out at the 3500rpm mark when you gun it.

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post #40 of 42 Old 07-22-2012, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FJ1200 View Post
Here are some from the h9r archieves, some dating back to 2002












I found this thread a few days ago noticed these two designs and have been thinking on it and started messing around with my airbox today...... noticed you can just pop it in half. mounted it back up, fairing still covering it, but the front of the airbox exposing the intake. took it for a ride, got on it a lil, DEF increase in induction noise, like major. WOT it screams. If I end up not liking this setup I can just pop the other side of the airbox back on to make it stock. so just thought I would share.

This is America dude. Learn the rules.

'03 919- UL's, Remus Carbon shorties, Dunlop D616's
'85 4Runner- KM2's, locked front and rear, tons of armor.
Dmurda704 is offline  
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