Putting bike on Dyno tomorrow. - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 32 Old 10-05-2010, 11:32 PM Thread Starter
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Putting bike on Dyno tomorrow.

taking my bike in tomorrow to put it up on the dyno at the Honda shop. Is there anything I need to know that might help the experience? I will try and get video posted of it later. If they'll let me.

I've read a couple of things to watch for, but I'm no expert on engines.

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post #2 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 01:09 AM
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The main thing is for it to be strapped down and there to be a good air flow into the radiator - there should be some form of fan system blowing air into the front of the engine. Usually (if indoors) there is a extractor pointed at the exhaust outlet too.

I have heard that they can be rough on rear tyres but this may be just a old wifes tale.

Make sure you post the results.

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post #3 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 07:25 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanB View Post
The main thing is for it to be strapped down and there to be a good air flow into the radiator - there should be some form of fan system blowing air into the front of the engine. Usually (if indoors) there is a extractor pointed at the exhaust outlet too.

I have heard that they can be rough on rear tyres but this may be just a old wifes tale.

Make sure you post the results.

The sooner they wear out that rear, the better. Then I can prove to my wife I need some Michelins! It's only stock, anyway.

I will post the results and hopefully some video, too.

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post #4 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 08:21 AM
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oh most likly you will be needing new tires when you are done. when i was in MMI we would burn off a new tire on the dyno in a day, though 15 students per class 3 times a day would do that

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post #5 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcycle View Post
oh most likly you will be needing new tires when you are done. when i was in MMI we would burn off a new tire on the dyno in a day, though 15 students per class 3 times a day would do that
Same bike? Yeah, I don't think I want to leave my bike on the dyno all day. I wanna ride the sucker!



Wait. I see where you went there. ;-)

*Honey? I need new tires - mine are all worn out!*

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post #6 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
taking my bike in tomorrow to put it up on the dyno at the Honda shop. Is there anything I need to know that might help the experience? I will try and get video posted of it later. If they'll let me.

I've read a couple of things to watch for, but I'm no expert on engines.
I will be there with my HD Camcorder! I'm excited for this!!! WOOOOO!!!!

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Apparently I need to hit a few more states
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post #7 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 09:36 AM
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well the center will be shot, the sides be good for a run at the dragon

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post #8 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dcycle View Post
well the center will be shot, the sides be good for a run at the dragon
Center is almost shot anyway. It has 5,000 miles on it.

And it's getting colder. New tires for spring!

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post #9 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
taking my bike in tomorrow to put it up on the dyno at the Honda shop. Is there anything I need to know that might help the experience? I will try and get video posted of it later. If they'll let me.

I've read a couple of things to watch for, but I'm no expert on engines.
1
Check 919.org for some very definitive info on dynoing. Dan Kyle does Part 1 of the paper, LDH does Part 2.

2
Just getting dyno'd?
Or getting custom mapped ?
A max power map with A/Fs into the high 12s ?
A more streetable map with A/Fs in the low to mid 13s ?
A mileage map cracking 14 in places ?

3
If you go for a max power map, keep in mind that depending on ambient temp, as in hot days, you will exceed the cooling systems ability to equalize and come into heat balance by a mid gauge temp. Which means the ECU will be instructing to increase richness and you WILL lose power. Few seem aware of LDH's dyno and Honda research of years ago when it became known that the Honda 919 ECU has instructions to increase richness as a compensating factor for increasing coolant temps. One counter strategy is to run straight water, which has superior coolant qualities than the standard freeze fear based 50/50 mix.

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post #10 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 02:25 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
1
Check 919.org for some very definitive info on dynoing. Dan Kyle does Part 1 of the paper, LDH does Part 2.

2
Just getting dyno'd?
Or getting custom mapped ?
A max power map with A/Fs into the high 12s ?
A more streetable map with A/Fs in the low to mid 13s ?
A mileage map cracking 14 in places ?

3
If you go for a max power map, keep in mind that depending on ambient temp, as in hot days, you will exceed the cooling systems ability to equalize and come into heat balance by a mid gauge temp. Which means the ECU will be instructing to increase richness and you WILL lose power. Few seem aware of LDH's dyno and Honda research of years ago when it became known that the Honda 919 ECU has instructions to increase richness as a compensating factor for increasing coolant temps. One counter strategy is to run straight water, which has superior coolant qualities than the standard freeze fear based 50/50 mix.
I'm looking for somewhere between max power and street map. Not too concerned with gas mileage - I crack that throttle all I can!

I'm not too worried about higher temps, as avg. temps in my riding weather is usually no more than 80. Only for about 1 week of the year does it get above 100 here, and even then, I am usually always moving, never really in stop-n-go traffic that lets the bike get real warm.

I've only heard my fan come on maybe a dozen times in 2 years.

...I'm re-reading the dyno info on 919.org, I had forgot it was there, thx.

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post #11 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
I'm looking for somewhere between max power and street map. Not too concerned with gas mileage - I crack that throttle all I can!

I'm not too worried about higher temps, as avg. temps in my riding weather is usually no more than 80. Only for about 1 week of the year does it get above 100 here, and even then, I am usually always moving, never really in stop-n-go traffic that lets the bike get real warm.

I've only heard my fan come on maybe a dozen times in 2 years.

...I'm re-reading the dyno info on 919.org, I had forgot it was there, thx.
What are you running for an exhaust and what are you going in with as a baseline map ?

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post #12 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
What are you running for an exhaust and what are you going in with as a baseline map ?
Look at my avatar pic: Running a '97 900RR header, ceramic coated, with a CF Scorpion Street Extreme Carbon Fiber (wrap and tip).

Currently running LDH's (I think) 919.org 900RR header map. It's been a lot of fun so far, so I doubt I will feel too much change.

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post #13 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Look at my avatar pic: Running a '97 900RR header, ceramic coated, with a CF Scorpion Street Extreme Carbon Fiber (wrap and tip).

Currently running LDH's (I think) 919.org 900RR header map. It's been a lot of fun so far, so I doubt I will feel too much change.
What is the map name?
I thought I had all of his maps as posted on 919.org, all the ones I have seen so far are for Sato Large Bore, Sato Small Bore, Moriwaki slip ons, or stock exhaust.
If you have the map file and can e mail it to me, I'd appreciate it so I can add it to the collection. I'll PM you my e mail address.

Also, has your PCIIIusb been synch'd to the 919's ECU Throttle Positioner ?
If not, no doubt your dyno guy will do that (ask to be sure) for you at both closed and open positions, and not just closed like PC recommends. You might find some gain there, especially down low in the RPMs and at small throttle opening like heavy traffic force you into.

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post #14 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 07:01 PM
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mcromo, thought there were more than that? theres the 2bros fuel map, simpson's map which is a modified version of the 2bros, and a couple others. i have 9 maps total?

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post #15 of 32 Old 10-06-2010, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
mcromo, thought there were more than that? theres the 2bros fuel map, simpson's map which is a modified version of the 2bros, and a couple others. i have 9 maps total?
I think I have about 19 in total.

There's the batch that came on the PowerCommander CD.

The Simpson that is floating around (that looks downright weird to me if it is for slip ons)

The one I had done for my bike.

Then there is the batch from 919.org
They are all Dan Kyle, LDH mods to D Ks, or LDH from scratch.
Anyone wanting a real good street map for good slip ons should start with mw919mori4.map which is LDH's Version 4 of his Moriwaki based dyno work. It just needs conversion to the current djm format.

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post #16 of 32 Old 10-07-2010, 08:40 AM
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cool! i'd like to try that map methinks.

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post #17 of 32 Old 10-07-2010, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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Results

Here are my results:

Dyno Results with 900RR header and Scorpion Can w/PC III USB

Once you click on the link, click the picture to see a larger version.


He said he was able to lean out my mixture, as it was near 14 (he said it's between 12.5 and 13 now) and got almost 2 more HP and some more torque.

He was going to email me some more figures, so I'll throw those up with some video when I get time.

I realize these figures are below what the rated stock specs are for the 919, but don't forget I live at 5000 ft elevation!

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post #18 of 32 Old 10-07-2010, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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Oh, and I will get a copy of all the Dyno Maps that I have and throw them up somewhere for everyone to download as well....


I will include my PCIII map from before I went and had it Dyno'd and the current one as well.

He said the map was very good, just a tad rich. Might have something to do with where I live and the elevation I'm at.

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post #19 of 32 Old 10-07-2010, 11:40 AM
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Very cool. That seems to be in line with what everyone has gotten to date.

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post #20 of 32 Old 10-07-2010, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post



I realize these figures are below what the rated stock specs are for the 919, but don't forget I live at 5000 ft elevation!
Shit.......looks OK to me. Many I have seen are at 104, so a couple 3 plus is OK for that pipe setup. Torque is normal.

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post #21 of 32 Old 10-07-2010, 02:12 PM
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I'd say that's a strong motor. The factory quoted HP is usually at the engine not the rear wheel.

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post #22 of 32 Old 10-07-2010, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post

He said he was able to lean out my mixture, as it was near 14 (he said it's between 12.5 and 13 now) and got almost 2 more HP and some more torque.

Just for clarification going from 14 to 12.5 is richer not leaner


12.5 is a too rich for the 919, it is pretty standard in that it needs about 13.1:1 for most conditions also taking into account a richer mixture keeps the bike cooler and aids in overall performance sacrificing a bit of the throttle crispness in exchange for simply more power which is just fine by my standards.

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post #23 of 32 Old 10-26-2010, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
Just for clarification going from 14 to 12.5 is richer not leaner


12.5 is a too rich for the 919, it is pretty standard in that it needs about 13.1:1 for most conditions also taking into account a richer mixture keeps the bike cooler and aids in overall performance sacrificing a bit of the throttle crispness in exchange for simply more power which is just fine by my standards.
Gotcha, thx. I was assuming it was 14 parts/air to gas ratio, so was assuming it was leaner. I have noticed less stink already as well, and when Osiris was (testing) it in front of me, I noticed less puffs of smoke when he hammered on the throttle.

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post #24 of 32 Old 10-26-2010, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
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Dyno Maps

Don't know if there was another place to put these, I couldn't really find it, but here is a link (downloadable) of all the PCIII maps I accumulated.

I've only tested 4 of them.

Dropbox - PC3 maps - Online backup, file sync and sharing made easy.

The Erion map was the one I got stock on the PCIII when I bought it. I just pulled it off. Used it for a day but noticed a lack of power even from stock.

The 919satonew2.map was the one I used when I had my Sato pipes. Excellent map I thought. LDH, I believe this was yours? If so, well done! Or kudos to the maker!

The "g00gl3it's" map is my custom dyno map I got a few weeks ago. If you guys have 900RR headers, you should give it a try, tell me what you think. I have yet to do any long riding on it, but the power increase was noticeable in every gear and every RPM range. Lots more grunt, and that was noticed by myself and Osiris.

The "All other Maps" folder is just everything else. Don't really know what they are for, but you can use the map compare feature to look at them.

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post #25 of 32 Old 10-27-2010, 12:53 PM
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107 hp at 5,000 feet elevation on a stock bike with a pipe? you know that's not accurate, right? heavy leaning on the correction factor, i think.

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post #26 of 32 Old 10-27-2010, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
107 hp at 5,000 feet elevation on a stock bike with a pipe? you know that's not accurate, right? heavy leaning on the correction factor, i think.
Explain please? Not questioning your knowledge. I just don't know.

Is this discrepancy between rear wheel hp and engine hp? What should I be looking for?

Anybody else think it's off base?

We're actually at 4750 ft where the dyno was at, but I didn't figure 250ft would make that big of a difference so I rounded up, lol.

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post #27 of 32 Old 10-27-2010, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Explain please? Not questioning your knowledge. I just don't know.

Is this discrepancy between rear wheel hp and engine hp? What should I be looking for?

Anybody else think it's off base?

We're actually at 4750 ft where the dyno was at, but I didn't figure 250ft would make that big of a difference so I rounded up, lol.
Yes, 107 is high and don't worry about it.
The shop one I get my runs done on is notorious for low numbers. 98 - 103 or so are legit numbers for a 919 depending on the dyno.
For example, an identical dyno 10 minutes away (club dyno at the track), run by the same guy, shows 5 HP more when a 120 hp zone bike is being tested.

Go to 919.org and look for the dyno papers. A two part paper. Part one is by Dan Kyle. Part two is by LDH.

Also, what were you running for fuel ? Regular ? (919s dyno lower on Premium, and that should be more so at your reduced air density altitude)

You should be more concerned about how smooth the torque curve is as compared to stock, and as a consequence, now smooth the hp curve is.
Look to see where the peak torque and hp occurs.
Oh yes, the horizontal scale has to be RPM, and not MPH !
Ask what the Air Fuel range is like, and what his targets were for Low, Mid, High and Full. Assuming the numbers are street use type and not max power types, the A/Fs will likely be in the low to mid 13s:1.

While the 107 is high beyond the norm, it does suggest that you have a fairly strong one. Maybe you have one on those magical "top 10%" engines. If you do, don't feel guilty about it.

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post #28 of 32 Old 10-27-2010, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Yes, 107 is high and don't worry about it.
The shop one I get my runs done on is notorious for low numbers. 98 - 103 or so are legit numbers for a 919 depending on the dyno.
For example, an identical dyno 10 minutes away (club dyno at the track), run by the same guy, shows 5 HP more when a 120 hp zone bike is being tested.

Go to 919.org and look for the dyno papers. A two part paper. Part one is by Dan Kyle. Part two is by LDH.

Also, what were you running for fuel ? Regular ? (919s dyno lower on Premium, and that should be more so at your reduced air density altitude)

You should be more concerned about how smooth the torque curve is as compared to stock, and as a consequence, now smooth the hp curve is.
Look to see where the peak torque and hp occurs.
Oh yes, the horizontal scale has to be RPM, and not MPH !
Ask what the Air Fuel range is like, and what his targets were for Low, Mid, High and Full. Assuming the numbers are street use type and not max power types, the A/Fs will likely be in the low to mid 13s:1.

While the 107 is high beyond the norm, it does suggest that you have a fairly strong one. Maybe you have one on those magical "top 10%" engines. If you do, don't feel guilty about it.
Here is the printout they gave me:

Dyno Results with 900RR header and Scorpion Can w/PC III USB

I posted it above, but there it is again. I need to contact them as they said they would email more stuff to me but never did. Maybe they are hiding something, , lol.

I did read those two papers on 919.org and I made sure that he did the testing in the same gear (I think he did it in 3rd, maybe 4th)

As for fuel, I was running 87 octane from Shell. No premium. Just what I always put in.

As for fuel/air ratio, I believe he told me he brought it down to mid 13's:1.

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post #29 of 32 Old 10-27-2010, 04:29 PM
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There is a noticeable dip from about 7000 to 7700.
Interestingly enough, that is also the zone where the peak torque should occur.
I'm going to guess at something, and all it is, is pure guess. I'm wondering if the 900 RR header helps at the torque peak, but is having a slightly negative effect just short of torque peak RPM.
Can you get the Torque Curve and post that too ?
Also.
The runout HP past peak has an odd step in at 9600 RPM, for both maps.
That does not look right at all.
I have no clue what that is from, and if it's not the pipe, I doubt its mapping. It happens at the almost the same curve position depending on the map, and I doubt it's ignition or injector related.
Maybe someone intimately familiar with 900RR piped 919s will recognize all of this and be able to advise as to what it's all about.

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post #30 of 32 Old 10-28-2010, 02:55 PM
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the rule of thumb is 3% loss for every thousand feet.
at 5,000 feet, that's 15% of 105 hp (what a 919 with a pipe makes) which equals 15.75 hp. your bike is making about 90 hp. maybe 92 hp at 4,750 feet. manufacturing tolerances are such that NO honda 919 makes 123 hp with just a pipe/can at sea level, but that is about the equivalent of what your dyno shop is telling you.

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post #31 of 32 Old 10-28-2010, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
the rule of thumb is 3% loss for every thousand feet.
at 5,000 feet, that's 15% of 105 hp (what a 919 with a pipe makes) which equals 15.75 hp. your bike is making about 90 hp. maybe 92 hp at 4,750 feet. manufacturing tolerances are such that NO honda 919 makes 123 hp with just a pipe/can at sea level, but that is about the equivalent of what your dyno shop is telling you.
His HP curves are SAE corrected to sea level, they are not 5000 ft altitude net hp curves. The overall factor was 1.18 so the 5000 ft altitude net was 90.7 hp, within a hair of what you said it would be.

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post #32 of 32 Old 10-28-2010, 04:27 PM
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"heavy leaning on the correction factor, i think. "



the author's "but don't forget I live at 5000 ft elevation!" needed to be put into correct perspective. in other words, the elevation doesn't matter as the dyno operator has ruled it out. so his bike is SMACK dab where ALL 919s are. from what i've seen , there are no "hot bikes" , only "hot dynoes"

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