OEM 17th sprocket problem - Wrist Twisters
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 Old 10-14-2007, 11:51 AM Thread Starter
Back in the day
 
Hondad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 270
Rep Power: 1
 
OEM 17th sprocket problem

Purchased the OEM 17th sprocket 23801-MAT-000 sprocket as recommended here, back ordered for a month. Went to put it on and the side play was excessive compared to the the original 16th sprocket. From .008 on the original to .112 on the 17th sprocket. The manual does not give any information on side play but it seems to be excessive. Is there anyone who has done the OEM 17th sprocket change. Or in the alternative does anyone have any information as to the side play limit.

Hondad is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 Old 10-14-2007, 03:42 PM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,345
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

More information needed.
Define side play, and how you determined it.
If you mean the distance the sprocket can slide back and forth on the splines, there should be none as it is firmly trapped by the bolt and washer on the outside and a spacer collar on the countershaft on the inside. If the 17t is able to move when the bolt is tightened it is too thin compared to the original 16t, and will have to be shimmed equally on both sides to keep it in place and centered.
If, on the other hand, you mean wobble, this still could be caused by a loose sprocket, or an improperly machined piece -- very unlikely for an OEM part.
If you have access to a pair of calipers, measure the width at the widest point of the 16t and compare that to the 17t: I'm willing to bet it's narrower by a fair amount. Either that, or it was installed incorrectly (though I can't guess how) and must be remedied.

Rob

robtharalson is offline  
post #3 of 21 Old 10-14-2007, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
Back in the day
 
Hondad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 270
Rep Power: 1
 
Side Play the distance that the sprocket moves along the splined shaft, from side to side. I agree the sprocket is to narrow. The 17th sprocket is 2.5 mm narrower. Could Honda have put the wrong sprocket in the bag, yes, but I have know way of knowing that. There is no part number on the sprocket. The 17th sprocket fits well in relationship the the splines. I was told that this part should fit. Obviously it doesn't. The original 16th sprocket has some side play and is not a tight fit. Is this normal? There is no mention in the manual either way. Is there another OEM number that will work? Thanks Rob

Hondad is offline  
post #4 of 21 Old 10-14-2007, 06:09 PM
Pilus Posterior
 
3dcycle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: St Johnsbury
Posts: 2,026
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation Outstanding Restoration Outstanding Restoration Outstanding Restoration 
Total Awards: 5

i would bet that honda stuck the wrong sprocket in that bag. happens alot really. bring back to the dealer let them deal with it.

3dcycle is offline  
post #5 of 21 Old 10-15-2007, 04:43 PM
Canadian Blue
 
Mark919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Detroit Suburbs
Posts: 382
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Donation 
Total Awards: 2

Hi Hondad,
I remember the topic from several months ago. I had bought the AFAM sprocket and was disappointed in the noise due to the lack of rubber pads. The idea in the forum thread was that the OEM 17T sprocket from a 2001 Interceptor should fit.
I did search the AFAM parts list and searched the fiche part numbers for all generations of Interceptors and could not get any link with the 919. My conclusion was that that they were not the same - but there was no way of telling what was different.
I don't think you will find any OEM Honda 17T sprocket (with rubber pads)that will fit the 919. If I were you I'd just try and return the wrong part and buy an AFAM without the pad. The lack of pad will likely have little effect in chain durability - it just creates a bit of a ringing noise.

Good Luck,
Mark
It's a good night to ride in Detroit

Mark919 is offline  
post #6 of 21 Old 10-16-2007, 10:32 PM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,345
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondad View Post
Side Play the distance that the sprocket moves along the splined shaft, from side to side. I agree the sprocket is to narrow. The 17th sprocket is 2.5 mm narrower........ The 17th sprocket fits well in relationship the the splines.
As far as I know, the 919 sprocket is symmetrical, so if the 800 Interceptor sprocket (which is the same part number for the Blackbird) is as well, all you have to do is take some careful measurements and make, or cause to be made, a pair of spacers to place on each side of the sprocket. If the measurement you gave is correct, spacers 0.050" thick should be about right, which corresponds closely to 16 gauge sheet steel. Of course, you could return the sprocket to the dealership, but what will you do if the next one is exactly the same? In point of fact, the retaining bolt and washer are there for exactly that -- to keep the sprocket on the shaft and in the proper orientation: side loads are minimal, so you do not need dead nuts machining of hardened steel parts to make it work. I have done exactly this many times without any problems. You have a sprocket which matches up to the splines and can be made to work with a bench vice, sheet metal shears, hand drill, rat tail file, and a little creativity. Go for it. If you need information on fits, procedures, and installation, post your questions and we'll go further into it.
Incidentally, has anyone actually done this? My searches showed references to the part number, but none saying it was done.

Rob

robtharalson is offline  
post #7 of 21 Old 10-16-2007, 10:48 PM
Church of the Holy Smoke
 
MotoCycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 1,085
Rep Power: 1
 
It was I who speculated a 17t from a Interceptor would work. I based this on a after market sprocket I bought for mine coming with a sticker on it that said it would fit... (insert list of Honda bikes here.) One of the bikes it listed was the VFR from 1998-2001. All my front sprockets, including my 15t Sunstar, 17t AFAM, and OEM 16t have some side play or wobble on the shaft after the bolt is tight on my 2003. I never once thought that it was an issue to have this side play as it would simply move with the chain and align with the rear sprocket etc. I am still convinced this 17t front sprocket, if spect for a VFR, will work fine. Bet it fits like 10 different Honda motorcycles?

It was a few years ago I bought that 15t.. so I will look it up again if I can. I will post what I find shortly.

BTW: DO NOT blame me if parts don't fit or work. I don't usually talk out my a$$ but then again I am not afraid to try things, waste money or break sh!t all to hell either.

- Rev. CYCHO -

tires.... it's what's for dinner!
MotoCycho is offline  
post #8 of 21 Old 10-16-2007, 11:10 PM
Church of the Holy Smoke
 
MotoCycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 1,085
Rep Power: 1
 
Hell if I know? I looked for a while but can't find definitive part numbers. I say make the shims/spacers.

- Rev. CYCHO -

tires.... it's what's for dinner!
MotoCycho is offline  
post #9 of 21 Old 10-17-2007, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
Back in the day
 
Hondad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 270
Rep Power: 1
 
I had a pair of .05 shim/spacers made out of aluminum, yesterday and they look like will do the job. If they work out then I may make some out of steel but I do not think that will be necessary. Side loads should be minimum. I will inspect at each chain lube. Will install tomorrow and post results.

It is my assumption the both of the sprockets are symmetrical but they might not be. I will get a distance from the case to they outside of the sprocket teeth, which should be the easiest. and then match the new sprocket to that number. Either one shim goes on each side or they both go on one side. As you can tell from the photo, if it made it, that the 17th sprocket has a recesses in the outside for the sprocket in the rubber part. I do not know why. Oh well.

I do not blame anyone, MotoCycho. Though, it would have been nice to have some disclosure that no one had done this yet. Even if I had known that it had not been done yet I would have made the effort to do it. No big deal. It will be my small contribution to the site. I sure have taken a lot out so it is my time to put some in.

Thanks for all of the info. It is always nice to have an extra set of, knowledgeable, eyes and minds helping.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Photo_101707_001.jpg (39.1 KB, 83 views)

Hondad is offline  
post #10 of 21 Old 10-17-2007, 01:22 PM
BrokeRecord
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: West Monroe,La
Posts: 1,180
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation Donation Donation 
Total Awards: 3

Clearance

I don't see what the problem is. You have more clearance then that on the rollers to teeth fit. You have clearance on nearly every gear that runs a chain. The washer and bolt just keeps the gear from running too far out. A little clearance here and there might make it run a little more true. I always grease the splines.

[
brokerecord is offline  
post #11 of 21 Old 10-17-2007, 04:15 PM
When in doubt.....GAS IT!
 
hasbeenracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SO.CAL
Posts: 2,528
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

I have that exact part # 17 tooth sprocket on mine. I noticed right off the bat it had alot of side play but knew from previous experience with other bikes that it would find it's own center. So far, I have put 700 miles on it and all is well. Rob is right though, shimming it is really the right way to do it.

hasbeenracer is offline  
post #12 of 21 Old 10-17-2007, 05:59 PM
Church of the Holy Smoke
 
MotoCycho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 1,085
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasbeenracer View Post
I have that exact part # 17 tooth sprocket on mine. I noticed right off the bat it had alot of side play but knew from previous experience with other bikes that it would find it's own center. So far, I have put 700 miles on it and all is well. Rob is right though, shimming it is really the right way to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondad View Post
...Though, it would have been nice to have some disclosure that no one had done this yet.
There ya go, hasbeenracer has done it. Kinda makes me feel better knowing my speculation wasn't totally off base.

- Rev. CYCHO -

tires.... it's what's for dinner!
MotoCycho is offline  
post #13 of 21 Old 10-17-2007, 07:03 PM
When in doubt.....GAS IT!
 
hasbeenracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SO.CAL
Posts: 2,528
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoCycho View Post
There ya go, hasbeenracer has done it. Kinda makes me feel better knowing my speculation wasn't totally off base.
I'm going to make some shims for it next week. Just to be safe.

hasbeenracer is offline  
post #14 of 21 Old 10-17-2007, 10:44 PM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,345
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondad View Post
I had a pair of .05 shim/spacers made out of aluminum, yesterday and they look like will do the job. If they work out then I may make some out of steel but I do not think that will be necessary. Side loads should be minimum. I will inspect at each chain lube. Will install tomorrow and post results.

It is my assumption the both of the sprockets are symmetrical but they might not be. I will get a distance from the case to they outside of the sprocket teeth, which should be the easiest. and then match the new sprocket to that number. Either one shim goes on each side or they both go on one side. As you can tell from the photo, if it made it, that the 17th sprocket has a recesses in the outside for the sprocket in the rubber part. I do not know why. Oh well.

Thanks for all of the info. It is always nice to have an extra set of, knowledgeable, eyes and minds helping.
Aluminum will do nicely, as long as the temper is T4 to T6.
From the picture, I would say both shims on the outside is probably what it needs. The easiest test is to lay both sprockets trans side down on a flat surface that doesn't normally have food on it (don't ask) and compare the tooth height -- I'm willing to bet the teeth will be very close to the same, in which case both shims go on the outside. If the new sprocket teeth are higher, it will have to be flipped over and shimmed on the trans side.
As to it's being left to float -- often in racing it will be left to float, sometimes a considerable amount. In the old flexi flyer days, frame flex when pushed hard would misalign the sprockets, so some float is left in to partially compensate. On the street, however, excessive float is not desirable: when racing, you are either speeding up or slowing down, varying the load and the load geometry. On the street, droning down the superslab at 76 MPH with Strunz and Farah cranked in the earbuds, the load has been constant for hours and therefore stuck in a particular orientation, which will not necessarily be in optimal alignment. A small amount of float is desirable: in the .010 to .018 range, just don't overdo it.
So mount it up, being sure to use a fair amount of high pressure grease on everything but the bolt, and let us know how it goes -- I briefly toyed with the idea of putting a 17t on, but realized it would not suit my commute: at my normal 82 to 87 MPH computed speed, it's in an absolute sweet spot as regards vibration (practically none) in the 5100 - 5500 range. Plus, this is in the meat of the torque curve -- it takes a quick twist to get from 80 to 100 in just over 2 seconds, decreasing "hang time" when passing. In a word: WAAAHOOOO! A 17 would make these speeds miserable, right in the 4300 to 4900 range (ugh!). For me, and for now, Honda hit the nail squarely on the head.
Good luck with this.
I've come to the conclusion that I'm having way too much fun on my bone stock '02 screaming yellow 919, which I've named Falcon. It makes me look forward to a 30 mile drone on the 405 to Long Beach. Amazing.

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
robtharalson is offline  
post #15 of 21 Old 10-18-2007, 09:38 AM
When in doubt.....GAS IT!
 
hasbeenracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SO.CAL
Posts: 2,528
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
Aluminum will do nicely, as long as the temper is T4 to T6.
From the picture, I would say both shims on the outside is probably what it needs. The easiest test is to lay both sprockets trans side down on a flat surface that doesn't normally have food on it (don't ask) and compare the tooth height -- I'm willing to bet the teeth will be very close to the same, in which case both shims go on the outside. If the new sprocket teeth are higher, it will have to be flipped over and shimmed on the trans side.
As to it's being left to float -- often in racing it will be left to float, sometimes a considerable amount. In the old flexi flyer days, frame flex when pushed hard would misalign the sprockets, so some float is left in to partially compensate. On the street, however, excessive float is not desirable: when racing, you are either speeding up or slowing down, varying the load and the load geometry. On the street, droning down the superslab at 76 MPH with Strunz and Farah cranked in the earbuds, the load has been constant for hours and therefore stuck in a particular orientation, which will not necessarily be in optimal alignment. A small amount of float is desirable: in the .010 to .018 range, just don't overdo it.
So mount it up, being sure to use a fair amount of high pressure grease on everything but the bolt, and let us know how it goes -- I briefly toyed with the idea of putting a 17t on, but realized it would not suit my commute: at my normal 82 to 87 MPH computed speed, it's in an absolute sweet spot as regards vibration (practically none) in the 5100 - 5500 range. Plus, this is in the meat of the torque curve -- it takes a quick twist to get from 80 to 100 in just over 2 seconds, decreasing "hang time" when passing. In a word: WAAAHOOOO! A 17 would make these speeds miserable, right in the 4300 to 4900 range (ugh!). For me, and for now, Honda hit the nail squarely on the head.
Good luck with this.
I've come to the conclusion that I'm having way too much fun on my bone stock '02 screaming yellow 919, which I've named Falcon. It makes me look forward to a 30 mile drone on the 405 to Long Beach. Amazing.

Rob
I have taken some measurements of both the stock 16t and the 17t in question. The width of the splined area on the 16t is .663 and the 17t is .570,
a difference of .093. Since the teeth are symmetrical in relationship to the width of the splined area (on centerline), it makes since ( to my mind anyways) that a spacer of .0465 placed on each side of the 17t would locate it on the counter shaft in the same place as the stock 16t. Any comments are welcomed, as the key words in all of this are "to my mind". I could be completely wrong.

hasbeenracer is offline  
post #16 of 21 Old 10-18-2007, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
Back in the day
 
Hondad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne, FL
Posts: 270
Rep Power: 1
 
Install went without a hitch. One spacer on each side and it was as it should. Took it around the block and it seemed OK. I will hopefully test it over the weekend on a two day trip.

Thanks for all of the info and input.

Hondad is offline  
post #17 of 21 Old 04-25-2008, 05:39 AM
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 23
Rep Power: 0
 
So did the oem viffer sprocket have the little rubber silencer things?

Just FYI here are the specs of the sprocket the 919 takes



And here are the specs for the viffer

BikePilot is offline  
post #18 of 21 Old 04-25-2008, 10:46 AM
When in doubt.....GAS IT!
 
hasbeenracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SO.CAL
Posts: 2,528
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Yes.

hasbeenracer is offline  
post #19 of 21 Old 04-25-2008, 12:25 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 23
Rep Power: 0
 
Cool.

BikePilot is offline  
post #20 of 21 Old 04-25-2008, 12:27 PM
Tesserarius
 
PHOBMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
Posts: 786
Rep Power: 1
 
I bought the 17t from Dan Kyle the brand is Drive Systems USA, did not notice any problem at the time, that was 7000 miles ago!

PHOBMAN is offline  
post #21 of 21 Old 04-25-2008, 12:45 PM
When in doubt.....GAS IT!
 
hasbeenracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SO.CAL
Posts: 2,528
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

Drive systems is good stuff.

hasbeenracer is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome