New rider, new 919, tech question - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 33 Old 09-28-2008, 10:38 PM Thread Starter
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New rider, new 919, tech question

I've been learning alot lurking and completely abusing the search function over the last couple weeks, and I have to say, you guys and gals have a great forum!

I do have a tech question though. I am a new rider and the bike is a brand new '07 919. I've noticed that the fine, part-throttle control is very poor on my bike. The transition from off the throttle to on-throttle jolts and can studder while trying to maintain speed, enough so that it makes it a scarry transition while cornering.

At first I chalked it up to it being a new bike that needs to "learn", as you would a high-strung sports car. Then after reading on wrist twisters, I adjusted the throttle cable and figured I just needed more practice. Now I can honestly say my bike has a fault/problem.

I am a road race car builder/ driver, and if one of my cars did this, I would be looking everything. Thottle position sensors, linkages, computer tuning, etc.

Does anyone else feel as though their 919 is missing the first 1-15% of the throttle control and "switches" on and off? Anything else I can check or do? I love this bike and I really want to hit the twisties with some confidence.

Thanks much,
Christian

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post #2 of 33 Old 09-28-2008, 10:50 PM
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Welcome Christian
One must be very smooth with the throttle, dose take some getting used to. There might be another 919 owner near sac who can ride your bike and compare.

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post #3 of 33 Old 09-28-2008, 10:55 PM
 
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Welcome aboard.

I felt the same way at first. It was my first fuel injected bike so wasn't used to the throttle response.

Not sure about your bike; it could have a problem.

Let's see what Rob has to say.

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post #4 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 03:57 AM
 
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Also don't forget that you can control that smoothness with the clutch. I went from a cruiser to the 919 and had some jerkiness the first day. I used the clutch to make it smoother and after a little practice now know it's engagement point and can go very slow and take off very slowly if needed.

Alexi

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post #5 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 04:02 AM
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I think all of us have a little of what you describe, but your sounds much worse. Being that its a new bike, it's probably worth taking it in under warranty and getting it checked out.

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post #6 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 05:20 AM
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Mine was pretty jerky under 25-30, also killed it a few times taking off from a slow stop.

Think the majority of it went away by the time it hit 500 miles. Now I don't notice it at all anymore.

I can very easily take off from a stop sign under 1500 rpms without riding the clutch and with no hesitation/jerkiness.

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post #7 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 05:39 AM
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Mine was also a little insecure feeling at low speed roll-ons. I added a PCIII and played with the accelerator pump function and driveability increased greatly. The stock ECU is speed-density and doesn't correct for this temporary lean condition. Did you check chain tension? And the last thing is, it's a Honda twist the pee out of it and use the clutch friction zone. Have fun.

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post #8 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbackdlm View Post
And the last thing is, it's a Honda twist the pee out of it and use the clutch friction zone. Have fun.
That's the way to do it. Just let the front hover as your eyeballs get sucked into the back of your head.

When I got my 03 919 it already had almost 16,000 miles on it. Now I'm not sure if we are discussing taking off from a start, or just low-speed cornering, but this is what I found (mostly from chatting on here and riding it).

- When taking off, if you are just riding through town and going slow, I can just leave a light without even giving it gas until the clutch is all the way out and still beat traffic.

- When cornering, I try to have my entry speed so that I can roll into the throttle as soon as I start the corner. Coasting through or throttling on in a corner feels very shaky and sometimes down right scary.

- This was also my first fuel injected bike and was not used to how fast the power was available. It probably took me 500 - 1000 miles and several throttle cable adjustments to get the right feeling on the bike.

Welcome aboard! Hope you get your issue resolved.

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post #9 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 07:25 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbackdlm View Post
And the last thing is, it's a Honda twist the pee out of it and use the clutch friction zone. Have fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmurphy84 View Post
That's the way to do it. Just let the front hover as your eyeballs get sucked into the back of your head.
Thank for all the responses, great info and some laughter!

I have had my share crotch crushing stalls, but you learn pretty fast when that kind of pain is involved! No proble with launching.

Here are a few examples of my problem:

-You are down shifting through the gears, coming up to traffic at a red light. The light turns green and the cars start rolling before you get there. This leaves in second or third coasting. Now you roll, ever so gently, back on to the throttle, to match the speed of the slowly accellerating cars in front of you, and the bike lurches forward, so you try to ease off and it shuts down. Oops, I must have been too abrupt, lets ease on even softer, JERK, JERK JERK. Like a newb doing a poor bucking bronco impression!

-Same while maintaining speed while cruising in any high gear.

-And the one I can't live with: doing this while mid corner trying to reduce my chicken strips.
In a high powered rwd car, I am used to braking, turning in, pointing at the apex and powering out as I ease up on the steering. The bike feels very much the same, but the power on "hit" is very sloppy and won't let me get my lean on.

I have checked the the chain tension, and it is good. I'm going to keep putting miles on the bike and see if it gets better. I did do an early first oil change, but it's not to 200 miles on the odo yet.

Are there problems using the PCIII on an 2007? I plan on adding a slip on and would also like some adjustability. (I leave nothing stock) I guess the problem I am having could be considered a "flat spot".
Anything else I should add or look at to reduce this? It is a CA bike and still has the charcole can and cat.
Thanks again,
Christian

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post #10 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ckiesz View Post
-And the one I can't live with: doing this while mid corner trying to reduce my chicken strips.
In a high powered rwd car, I am used to braking, turning in, pointing at the apex and powering out as I ease up on the steering. The bike feels very much the same, but the power on "hit" is very sloppy and won't let me get my lean on.
I know exactly what you are talking about! I have owned my 919 for about 8 months and it is also my first fuel injected bike. I get the exact same thing and I believe that it is strictly a fuel injection trait and probably one we will just have to learn to adjust to or get the PCIII which I personally dont feel I need with only minor mods and a GREAT running bike ( I also dont want the associated failures and headaches)!

I would love to be wrong on this issue but have resigned myself to believe this since I have tried many adjustments as well with little or no change in behavior! I can and will however live with it if I have to because I LOVE THIS BIKE!!!!!

Welcome aboard and maybe we can get the answer here, I think most of the guys here are just used to this glitch!


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post #11 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 07:57 AM
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It's a common problem, adjusting as much of the slack out of the throttle cables helps, PCIII helps, Turbo City fuel pressure regulator helps but nothing seems to make it go away for ever and ever, just something about the progamming of the stock ECU, I've been chasing a surge problem on my 04 since I got the bike, only happens under 15% throttle.

Dan

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post #12 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 08:52 AM
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I noticed it at first on my stock 02. I guess I must have gotten used to it and unconsciously adjust my inputs to match the bikes quirks. I don't even think about it any more.

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post #13 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 09:15 AM
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With only 200 miles on the odo I don't think you've had enough time to get used to the throttle or bike itself, but it sounds like you've checked everything that could possibly make it worse. Both of my '02's did/do what you describe and I had trouble with it at first, but after several thousand miles on the 919 now, I have no problems with the throttle and actually quite enjoy the quick response. I say ride it. Alot. Put a couple thousand miles on it first. Practicing your throttle blipping on downshifts on a nice straight emtpy piece of road is one of the best ways to get used to the throttle. Have fun!

'02 Honda 919 - She's the only one for me!

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post #14 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 09:41 AM
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I, too, had to get used to the FI on this bike and had several near drops at corners as I tried to get under way and turn right at the same time. That was four years ago and seems like a thing of the past. It takes some time to get used to. Do remove most of the slack in your throttle cable – it helps a bunch.

Now, to those who have tried to dissuade you from purchasing a PC3, know that there are a bunch of use who have only purchased one, have found a good map we like, and never had a warranty issue with it. I'm one. I've had one for four years, I've washed my bike at the carwash, and done everything else most say to avoid – and it keeps running like a champ! It was the best $275 mod I ever spent on the bike! I'm sure there are some here who've had trouble with the PC3, some who are on their fourth or fifth under warranty, but I bet most have had no trouble at all and just haven't felt the need to say so.

Once you get that slack out of the throttle cable, ride it like a rental!

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post #15 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 10:36 AM
 
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My '02 was purchased used this year with 9k on the clock. I had one plug fouled, and another on it's way out... It was missing on one cylinder full time. The bike would shudder at anything below 3k rpm... More pronounced at 1500... This is while accelerating.

decelerating is another story. It will start kicking me if I slow the bike down to 2000 - 1500 rpm in traffic... just like you described. I think this is the symptoms of a pissed off sport bike that doesn't like running in that rpm range for long.

When hanging around corners kick it down a gear, smooth the throttle at 5k or so and it'll act like a different bike.

Something else to consider is break in... She's starting to cut her teeth. Everthing is still kind of rubbing the newness off... Give it a few hundred more miles of running and it'll act much smoother.

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post #16 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 11:12 AM
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I also build and race cars. I have a hot rod and restoration shop. This bike likes to be rode like you stole it. If it's not spinnin' 3000rpm you ain't movin' (I exagerate). If your used to cars, spinnin' this in-line four to 10,000rpm may sound excessive. The bike really likes it though. I'm also a firm beliver in breakin' 'em in the way your gonna run 'em. Dog-it and enjoy.

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post #17 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 12:08 PM
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Welcome to WT, Christian!

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post #18 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 01:25 PM
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Welcome to the Nest, Christian!

Even though you didn't come out and say it directly, it sounds as if you purchased your niner new from a dealer. If so, and you have some faith in the service department, I'd let them ride it and tell you everything is fine. Or to the contrary, have them make an adjustment under warranty if something is wrong. Also, you mentioned that you adjusted the throttle cable. Even though you sound like a competent mechanic, please remember that you can also adjust too much slack out of the cable! I'm sure it doesn't need to be said, but the bike should idle evenly and steadily no matter in which position or how far you turn your handlebars. If you turn your bars (in neutral, please!) and the idle speed changes, check the routing of the throttle cable and recheck the cable slack. Also, is your niner idling at or just under 1000 rpm? Too far from that in either direction can cause some difficulties. Adjust with the yellow knob directly on the left side of the injector bank.

Finally, with a torque-rich engine like the niner, especially with the rather narrow injector throats maintaining relatively high air velocity at low revs, it is to be expected that the engine will be responsive. Very responsive. We pay the price for that at the upper end of the rev range when the engine runs out of breath somewhat early. It's what makes the niner such a great all-around bike and so easy to live with on the street, but it's no racer in that it doesn't need to see 7000 rpm before it wakes up. Responsive at low rpms doesn't equate to jerkiness, however, at least not in my book. If you've checked all the small stuff to your satisfaction, the last step may be to consider the PC III. It makes a huge difference in how cleanly the niner runs due to the more optimum mixture it breathes. It's hard to describe, but after the PC III install, the bike seems less... fluffy. I know, stupid choice of words, but it seems to describe the change in responsiveness well. I know, you're not really looking for more responsiveness, but all I can say is life is better with the PC III. Order from Dan Kyle and it comes loaded with the niner map. Oh, and by the way, go the extra distance and solder those power wires rather than using the crappy taps that come with the kit!

But first, ride it a lot more. You may get used to the torque monster!

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post #19 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 04:02 PM
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The first thing I noticed about my '02 (which I bought used with 7500 miles on it) was the sensitivity of the closed throttle response pretty much regardless of the rpm. It was, and is, by far the most, well, for want of a better term, accurate throttle I've ever twisted -- and I've ridden literally thousands of different bikes. At first smoothness suffered until I figured out what the bike was telling me and now I have come to depend on the instantaneous reaction it gives me in response to even the smallest inputs. My roadracing experience is very helpful in this as when you are on the hairy edge of disaster in every corner throttle control is of paramount importance! One thing I've learned to do is always keep my right index finger resting on top of the brake lever to serve as a reference for how much you are turning the throttle for the first 1/4 of its rotation or so. In this way your brain has more feedback from the part of the body with the most nerve endings (the fingers) as opposed to the wrist, which is almost numb in comparison.

One fact about the break in period most people miss is the all important breaking in your brain to the characteristics of the bike and what sort of inputs it prefers -- which is why many responses to this thread are "It used to bother me but I don't notice it any more." I'm willing to bet once the motor loosens up and you have gotten used to it you won't notice anything but a good crisp response to inputs, and like me will come to appreciate it. All without any modifications of any sort.

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post #20 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 04:21 PM
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run the **** out of her!!!!!!! she will like it soon!!!!!!! and thank you when you get that fealing in your pants when you top out 3 gear and she is screaming for you to burn through one more gear!!! i to am a car guy and have won many road race boughts. thi 9er is a diffrent story them the viper i RC with. the 9er is like a sexy girl in hot black leather and a whip with a few sets of handcufs!!! dont pussy foot her, do things to her you would not do to your self even if you were drunk!! ok now im off subject. welcome to our happy home!!!

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post #21 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 04:22 PM
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****

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post #22 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 04:22 PM
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why cant i say ****?

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post #23 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 05:04 PM Thread Starter
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I am getting the hint that I need to go out and ride her a little more. I won't complain! I can't tell you how many times I've riden past my destination, just so I can get another 15 or 20 minutes of bike time. And I am definatly breaking in just as much or more than the bike.

The throttle cable stretched considerably in the first 150 miles and will be needing another adjustment soon. I did go over the 919 helpful topics before doing it the first time and learned to check it while rotating the handle bars(good thinking). I played with the idle at about 900rpm and now have it set at 1050rpm.

The PCIII definatly is on the to buy list. So far I've done a few mods. I was having trouble sliding forward into the tank(6 feet, long arms) so invested in the industry standard renthal UL. While I was in there I swaped the mirrors, bar ends, and turn signals to rizoma ones, painted the gauge cluster black and dropped the front 10mm. Also did the flapper mod and hand made a rear fender replacement.
Next up: slip on, pcIII and a few more dress-up items.

It is amazing how such little things can change the look and feel of the bike so much! The bars made me feel more in touch with the bike and lowering the front, just 10mm, made the turn in and turn-turn transitions way more lively.

Thanks for all the help, I'm going to go improve my odometer reading.
Christian

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post #24 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 05:21 PM
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Best advice yet for rider-related issues--ride more.
Enjoy!

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post #25 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 06:58 PM
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Idle speed per service manual is 1200 +/- 100 rpm. Try setting the idle to 1200-1300 rpm. Also, most I4 motorcycle engines have a near total lack of flywheel effect which allows quicker shifting and fast throttle response but make throttle controll a thing to be learned. Basic simple fuel injection systems like our 919's have can aggrivate this problem and there can be signicicant differences from bike to bike of the same year and model. I suggest having the dealer or a trusted rider ride your bike.

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post #26 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 07:34 PM
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I just got my 919 about a week ago, and mine is the same way. I've only put 458 miles on her so far, but I can tell you the more I ride, the less pronounced it gets. So, in other words I'm getting used to the touchy throttle and adjusting my touch accordingly, if that makes sense.

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post #27 of 33 Old 09-29-2008, 07:48 PM
 
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Two words: saddle time...

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post #28 of 33 Old 03-28-2009, 04:32 PM
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new 07 919 also .. first thing i noticed was how smooth it is pulling away from a dead stop light ,,,ect...if your trying to ride 10 mph or less with no clutch controll and bike will jerk around any bike will do that..if your saying you have dead spots..jerk above 10 mph ... id say thats not right....my throttle response is dead on...and my clutch is pulled in or feathered at 10 mph or lover

dont need a bike to ride the fast lane
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post #29 of 33 Old 03-28-2009, 05:13 PM
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hrmmmm i never let my bike go that slow. no jerkiness at WOT just so smooth and crisp.

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post #30 of 33 Old 03-28-2009, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
One thing I've learned to do is always keep my right index finger resting on top of the brake lever to serve as a reference for how much you are turning the throttle for the first 1/4 of its rotation or so. In this way your brain has more feedback from the part of the body with the most nerve endings (the fingers) as opposed to the wrist, which is almost numb in comparison.


Rob
Perhaps the best advice of-all-time concerning the 919's throttle control. The index finger trick cannot be stressed enough.


Hey ckiesz, you should ride over to GrassValley to check out ricko2's 919.

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post #31 of 33 Old 03-28-2009, 06:00 PM
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huh? get a sailboat. it's a vanilla flavor version of a hooligan bike from Honda.
throttle response is dumbed down for liability, a pc3 corrects this, that's why you gotta splice into the throttle position wire........an i ain't no hooligan not even close but you bought a 900 use it.

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post #32 of 33 Old 03-29-2009, 09:45 PM
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When I got my first 02 it had this same problem. I bought it with 3000 on the odo, when I laid it down at 7000 it was feeling much smoother. My second 02 was bought with 14000 on odo, and has been very smooth from the begging. Listen to Rob he is wise! I always ride with my index finger on the break lever. I’d say get some miles on that thing, and keep the cable adjusted! You and your 9er will become one!

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post #33 of 33 Old 03-29-2009, 11:07 PM
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i also rely on smooth throttle control... when you ride an 80 mph unicycle, it's good to be smooth... i spent quite a bit of time playing w/ my PCIII and turned the acc. pump WAY down, as well as the TPS sensitivity. along with custom map, it helped a lot. if one of my friends gets on it and tries to wheelie, they say it's still rough. so... I guess it's saddle time
I see you haven't been posting much, does that mean you are out riding a lot? i hope so!

30,000 mile 919 survivor. No plans of stopping the abuse any time soon.
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