I need technical help! - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 308 Old 01-01-2011, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
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I need technical help!

Okay some background first. '07 919, pairs block off plates, turbo charger installed. When I installed the turbo the crank case vent line was run to an externally mounted air filter because the stock airbox was removed.

Okay so I was out riding today and everything was normal. After nearly 100 miles I started noticing my face shield seeming to fog up. I couldn't figure it out but then I noticed there was smoke coming out from in front of my tank. So I stopped and while idling it is just bellowing out from the front of the tank! So I turned it off and it slowly stops. The second I crank it smoke (that I'm pretty sure is oil) just comes bellowing out from the crank vent. It also sounds like one cylinder is missing or not firing and the number 4 header seems to get warm slower but does get hot. The power is definitely down and it almost sounds like a V twin, but I rode it back no over heating or anything else showing wrong. Oil level is even okay and coolant is all there.

I'm just so bumbed about it I haven't even gone out to start breaking it down to check plugs, do pressure test or anything thing but what I mentioned above. Maybe tomorrow.

Well I'd appreciate all the guesses and advice I can get before I start digging!

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post #2 of 308 Old 01-01-2011, 06:34 PM
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What color is the smoke?

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post #3 of 308 Old 01-01-2011, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
What color is the smoke?
Bluish white, smells like oil.

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post #4 of 308 Old 01-01-2011, 08:12 PM
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FPR?

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post #5 of 308 Old 01-01-2011, 08:37 PM
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seein' how we're guessing i'll throw mine in.i hope i'm wrong because your not gonna like my guesses but here goes..

1. broken rings
2. hole in piston

reason....blow by the rings or hole causes the crankcase to be pressurized pushing oil vapor out the breather.

like i said,i hope i'm wrong

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post #6 of 308 Old 01-01-2011, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XRCajun View Post
Bluish white, smells like oil.
If it looks like oil and smells like oil. My bet is oil, the question is why?



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post #7 of 308 Old 01-01-2011, 09:48 PM
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post #8 of 308 Old 01-01-2011, 11:00 PM
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First thing to do is to whip the plugs out and then do a compression test, Lets hope its not expensive!........ were you nailing it when it happened? When i shattered my piston you could here it going out the engine in a sort of ting ting shound

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post #9 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 05:34 AM
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Not that this has anything to do with your problem. But it may have been best to attach that vent line to the suction side of the turbo. The line is there for eco reasons and hp reasons. It burns oil fumes for eco reasons but it also keeps the crankcase in a vacuum for hp reasons.

I think I'd agree with drew. It its that much smoke it sounds like there is excess blow by. Sure hope we are wrong. If not, at least you get to build it up with a forged shortblock and lower comp. Then you can really put the boost to her.

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post #10 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 06:13 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
FPR?
What's FPR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewvir View Post
seein' how we're guessing i'll throw mine in.i hope i'm wrong because your not gonna like my guesses but here goes..

1. broken rings
2. hole in piston

reason....blow by the rings or hole causes the crankcase to be pressurized pushing oil vapor out the breather.

like i said,i hope I'm wrong
This is exactly why I haven't been able to bring myself to go look deeper into it yet. I can't think of another reason oil would be blowing by. Seems kind of strange that none is coming out of the exhaust though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by schrock86 View Post
If it looks like oil and smells like oil. My bet is oil, the question is why?
I know it's oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyeee View Post
First thing to do is to whip the plugs out and then do a compression test, Lets hope its not expensive!........ were you nailing it when it happened? When i shattered my piston you could here it going out the engine in a sort of ting ting shound
I was hoping I'd hear from you Woodyeee! Well I was riding with a group and I kind of slowly nailed it a couple of times but that never seemed to be when it happened. I didn't notice anything until I had come to a stop and then took off again. I know you went back in with the forged pistons. What else did you do to beef it up?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stutz View Post
Check #4 spark plug
That will be my next step. But that won't explain to me why oil is blowing out the crank vent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by touring919 View Post
Not that this has anything to do with your problem. But it may have been best to attach that vent line to the suction side of the turbo. The line is there for eco reasons and hp reasons. It burns oil fumes for eco reasons but it also keeps the crankcase in a vacuum for hp reasons.

I think I'd agree with drew. It its that much smoke it sounds like there is excess blow by. Sure hope we are wrong. If not, at least you get to build it up with a forged shortblock and lower comp. Then you can really put the boost to her.
I sure hope you're wrong too but then I'll be really puzzled.

Thanks for the input guys if no one is able to come up with any other suggestions for this then I think you've confirmed what I was afraid of.

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post #11 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 06:54 AM
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with out compression on that cylinder it won't burn the mixture,so no oil smoke from the exhaust just overpressure of the crank case.
#4 isn't firing,header is cooler than rest,down on power,runs like a v-twin.
that's the reason i'm leaning that way.

btw fpr=fuel pressure regulator

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post #12 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 06:54 AM
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FPR = Fuel Pressure Regulator.

Press Any Key To Continue.
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post #13 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 07:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewvir View Post
with out compression on that cylinder it won't burn the mixture,so no oil smoke from the exhaust just overpressure of the crank case.
#4 isn't firing,header is cooler than rest,down on power,runs like a v-twin.
that's the reason i'm leaning that way.

btw fpr=fuel pressure regulator
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmurphy84 View Post
FPR = Fuel Pressure Regulator.
Okay I see Drew!

Oh yeah well I'm not really smelling unburned gas so I don't think it's the FPR and I don't see why that would cause smoke out the vent.

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post #14 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 07:35 AM
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Can you post a video up of it so we can see what its doing.....are you sure its not coming from your block off plates as i think that would make it sound a little differant, as for down on power if that was blowing you would be having less boost as theexhaust gases would be leaking out?

I only fitted je pistons with a rebore, i also had the pickup coil modified by bill at wave to be -4 degrees. To be honest with the je pistons, i have been told unless your running 15 psi or more you dont need to retard the ignition.
I still need to change my head gasket to see if that stops the coolant being forced out the expansion tank under full boost.......i planned to that this xmas but it been too cold here as we have had snow for the last month!!
I have just bought a lockup clutch as when i was running 9-10 psi i had lots of clutch slip and will fit that along with a new barnett clutch when it arrives.
Ive done 3000 miles since engine rebuild.

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post #15 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 09:37 AM
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woodyee. Have you run yours on the dyno since the rebuild? Just curiouse to know if you are making any more power or if the rebuild was purely for reliablity. Leaving the old tune as is except for the -4 degree timing.

I'll be watching this thread closly. Its always nice to see the answer after a question like this is posted.

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post #16 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touring919 View Post
woodyee. Have you run yours on the dyno since the rebuild? Just curiouse to know if you are making any more power or if the rebuild was purely for reliablity. Leaving the old tune as is except for the -4 degree timing.

I'll be watching this thread closly. Its always nice to see the answer after a question like this is posted.
I'm pretty sure he's not been back on the dyno yet. He's having some problems with boiling the coolant right now if he runs the boost to high. He seems to think it could be the head gasket. Mine doesn't coming anywhere close to over heating while on the dyno.

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post #17 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyeee View Post
Can you post a video up of it so we can see what its doing.....are you sure its not coming from your block off plates as i think that would make it sound a little differant, as for down on power if that was blowing you would be having less boost as theexhaust gases would be leaking out?

I only fitted je pistons with a rebore, i also had the pickup coil modified by bill at wave to be -4 degrees. To be honest with the je pistons, i have been told unless your running 15 psi or more you dont need to retard the ignition.
I still need to change my head gasket to see if that stops the coolant being forced out the expansion tank under full boost.......i planned to that this xmas but it been too cold here as we have had snow for the last month!!
I have just bought a lockup clutch as when i was running 9-10 psi i had lots of clutch slip and will fit that along with a new barnett clutch when it arrives.
Ive done 3000 miles since engine rebuild.
Okay here we go!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYbqVmDEi0Y

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post #18 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 11:22 AM
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looks like you got some SERIOUS blow by going on.... rings and or hole in piston.... sorry to say but thats really the only way your going to get that... or POSSIBLY a bad head gasket (u said it was # 4 cylinder) that has a leak into the cam chain valley.... but id be willing to be the earlier.

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post #19 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 12:25 PM
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That doesn't look good. I would guess you have a hole in your piston or stuck valve. Need to pressure test it for sure.

Spoiler:

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post #20 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickard919 View Post
That doesn't look good. I would guess you have a hole in your piston or stuck valve. Need to pressure test it for sure.
stuck valve wouldnt cause oil vapor to pour out the crank case vent.

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post #21 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
looks like you got some SERIOUS blow by going on.... rings and or hole in piston.... sorry to say but thats really the only way your going to get that... or POSSIBLY a bad head gasket (u said it was # 4 cylinder) that has a leak into the cam chain valley.... but id be willing to be the earlier.

I second nd4spdbh it looks like a rebuild is in order.



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post #22 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 02:50 PM
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A cheap and easy way to see if it is a mess inside is to drain the oil - if it is full of metal particles and god forbid larger pieces you have internal issues.

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post #23 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 04:13 PM
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sorry to say xrcajun, i'm leaning to my original diagnosis even more now.

first off, pull #4 plug.
do a compression test(185 psi is what your lookin for)
then a leakdown test
drain oil into a clean pan(or better a glass baking dish,*note*-NOT THE WIFES'.LOL)
then pull the rest of the plugs.

hopefully it doesn't look like this
Attached Images
File Type: jpg plug.jpg (132.7 KB, 31 views)

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post #24 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 05:40 PM
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^


That is one NASTY image!

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post #25 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 05:50 PM
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i hope his chit doesn't look like that.lol

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post #26 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 05:52 PM
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Not as much smoke as I was expecting to see. But still quite a bit. Something is broke for sure. Maybe just rings, not a big hole in the piston. Either way, looks like you have a winter project on your hands.

Was it just me, or did it sound like there was a bit of a knocking sound too?

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post #27 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touring919 View Post
Not as much smoke as I was expecting to see. But still quite a bit. Something is broke for sure. Maybe just rings, not a big hole in the piston. Either way, looks like you have a winter project on your hands.

Was it just me, or did it sound like there was a bit of a knocking sound too?
yea i thought i heard it too.could be rings with the piston slopping around

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post #28 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 06:18 PM
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XRCajun,

I don't think the final diagnosis is going to be a happy ending type.


The video doesn't show any oil smoke coming from the exhaust.
Is this really the case ? Or did the camera angle just not pick it up ?

Have you tried removing the air filter and blocking the hose end with a thumb or finger in order to get some kind of feel for how much pressure is building up and how fast ?

Let's take a step back, and look at all the current knowns:
Oil smoke coming from crankcase breather at a heavy rate.
#4 header said to warm slower than the others.
Some power has been lost.
No mention of any unusual mechanical noises.

The overall cylinder/combustion chamber oil control is by the combination of the valve stem seals and the lower two rings on the piston. (The upper ring provides most of the pressure sealing, the second ring actually providing more oil control that pressure sealing.)
IF your exhaust is not emitting blue smoke, it suggests to me that your overall cylinder/chamber is still reasonably "dry", in other words, oil control has not been lost (at least in the idle mode that you videoed). This suggests that maybe the associated components have not been badly damaged (re the piston that means the ring grooves/rings/walls).
IF your # 4 pipe takes longer to heat, but still gets hot to some degree, it suggests that the peak combustion temperature and / or combustion duration is less. Keep in mind that a big factor in peak combustion temperature is compression ratio, high ratios netting higher peak temperatures.
My guess is that you have at least a holed piston, maybe a previous partial burn that has finally failed.
The only other path for cylinder/chamber gases to get into the crankcase is past a valve stem, and I don't think that is what you are facing.

Pull the # 4 plug and read it for oil and aluminum. It may, or may not, show signs of what has gone wrong, depending on how long you have had those plugs in, and what the failure mode really is.

Do a compression check on # 4 first.
Do a try test first, then a wet test.
If you have a very low number, it matters not what the problem really is, as the engine will have to come apart.
If the wet check yields a major increase in pressure, it typically means that the larger leakage path is past the rings as compared to the valve/valve seat fits.
Then do a compression check on the rest of the cylinders.

See what all the above reveals.

IF your # 4 compression test is very low, and you can feel pressure building up fast and to a level that you can't keep your finger on the vent hose during an idle run test, in my mind there is no question that the crankcase is seeing some serious combustion gas.
One might be tempted to drop the engine and tear into it, but not yet in my mind.

Remove the upper cover as though you were going to check your valve clearances.
Do clearance checks on all valves.
If you have reasonable numbers, especially on the suspect # 4 cylinder, you can reasonably assume that the valve and valve related parts are OK. The chances of having a proper valve clearance in association with a missing valve stem are what I would call low. Some would say this step is a waste of time, but in the past I have used such a check as part of a diagnostics check re bizarre situations (like a CB750 that started and ran, but only two pipes heated up and had plugs being fired by different coils – amazing how a broken camshaft can manifest itself). So why not do it, it’s part of covering all the basics.

Let’s suppose your valve clearances all check out, and you have a duff # 4 compression number.
Get the bike on some kind of stand so the rear wheel is off the ground.
Remove the header.
Drain the oil.
Remove the oil sump.
You should be able to view up and see what is going on.
You might need a mirror.
Use a nice white light for illumination, and LED flashlight would be good.
Use the rear wheel to rotate the engine (use 6th gear) so you can get different views.
You could even probe with a coat hanger re the piston crowns.
When the pistons are on their down stroke, check for piston crown failure.
When the pistons are on their upstroke, check the cylinder walls for scoring.
My guess is that you’ll see something.

I’m really curious as to what is really coming out of your exhaust pipe, as in oil smoke or not.

Good luck !

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post #29 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 08:01 PM
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mcromo44,

he said in his 2nd or 3rd post there was no exhaust smoke.

although i understand your systematic approach to the diagnosis, i think there is a point to cut it off. if you read my next to last post,#4 seems to be the problem. so do the comp. test(i think he'll see a problem) and a leakdown(if it has good comp.) i agree with the valve cover removal next but don't see the point to removing the pan.
if he has no comp. and drains the oil and it has metal,it's comming apart.you can't pull a piston/rod out the bottom. you have to pull the head and that is so much nicer to work on out of the bike.if the cyl. is scored the whole motor is comming apart.
i wouldn't waste time pulling the pan to inspect the cyl. walls, but that's just me.
i really don't think it's a valve seal but you could check the cams out.
i feel that is alot of smoke for 20-30 sec. run(unless it was already hot)
plz don't be offended

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post #30 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewvir View Post
mcromo44,

he said in his 2nd or 3rd post there was no exhaust smoke.

although i understand your systematic approach to the diagnosis, i think there is a point to cut it off. if you read my next to last post,#4 seems to be the problem. so do the comp. test(i think he'll see a problem) and a leakdown(if it has good comp.) i agree with the valve cover removal next but don't see the point to removing the pan.
if he has no comp. and drains the oil and it has metal,it's comming apart.you can't pull a piston/rod out the bottom. you have to pull the head and that is so much nicer to work on out of the bike.if the cyl. is scored the whole motor is comming apart.
i wouldn't waste time pulling the pan to inspect the cyl. walls, but that's just me.
plz don't be offended
Hi drewvir,

Less than no offence taken !

I missed the no smoke statement.
Absolutely, if drained oil has any metal, then pan removal is a waste of time.
But, if by some chance no metal is apparent, I'd still drop the pan and have a look.
My personal preference is to have as good a handle on all that's wrong before dropping an engine out.
Others will prefer to just want to know enough to decide for sure that the engine needs to be dropped, then find the details on the bench.
My way would take a bit more time, which is not an advantage.
What intrigues me about this one, is the feeling that it will either be a piston crown problem or a piston ring land/ ring problem.

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post #31 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 08:33 PM
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On a positive you have created the worlds first 3.5 cylinder motor

Either way, your taking out the #4 piston, which would require a head removal.... which requires the motor out of bike.... no beating around the bush there... its just gotta happen.

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post #32 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Drew, Mcromo, and nd4spdbh!

First off when I did the video the bike had sat cold all night long and that was the first start of the day. Plus in the video I never reved it over about 2grand. So that is quite a bit of vapor for thirty seconds of dead cold running. Well I'm going to drain the oil and pull the plug but after I confirm whats gone bad I'm taking it over to my mechanic and let him deal with it. He's a fantastic meticulous independent shop owner/racer engine builder and he's been doing my dyno tunes. I was suppose to be bringing it back to him to finish the tune after I installed the new clutch and ignition module. I'm in the fitness business and now is my busiest time of year so I'm not going to have the time or energy to deal with it. If it had happened before Christmas I would have but not now and I want it back together by spring.

Well I'll take pics and let you all know what I find and we'll go from there. Thanks again!

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post #33 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 10:11 PM
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Hmm... what to bet on... rings or piston.

I bet 5 internets that u got a hole in ur piston.

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post #34 of 308 Old 01-02-2011, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touring919 View Post
woodyee. Have you run yours on the dyno since the rebuild? Just curiouse to know if you are making any more power or if the rebuild was purely for reliablity. Leaving the old tune as is except for the -4 degree timing.

I'll be watching this thread closly. Its always nice to see the answer after a question like this is posted.
I only ran it on the dyno to tune in the bottom end when i installed the modified pickup coil as i was still running it in so i never got any performance figures.

xrcajun........mine never smoked like that when i shattered my piston, maybe you have holed yours by running it to lean...do you have an afr meter fitted?
If i were you i would pull the plugs first as this will tell you if you have melted anything! Also if its been running to lean and your mixture was set right i would check for any air leaks....I think bwoso had that....i wonder if his smoked like yours?

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/woodyeee/IMAG0306.jpg
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post #35 of 308 Old 01-03-2011, 02:00 AM
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Blow by 100% ,

Rings or fractured piston if not worse.

Sorry my 2 cents.

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post #36 of 308 Old 01-03-2011, 03:01 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyeee View Post
I only ran it on the dyno to tune in the bottom end when i installed the modified pickup coil as i was still running it in so i never got any performance figures.

xrcajun........mine never smoked like that when i shattered my piston, maybe you have holed yours by running it to lean...do you have an afr meter fitted?
If i were you i would pull the plugs first as this will tell you if you have melted anything! Also if its been running to lean and your mixture was set right i would check for any air leaks....I think bwoso had that....i wonder if his smoked like yours?
I don't have an AFR meter I was just counting on having it properly dyno'd. I don't know this for sure but I think what might have happened is I may have done this when I missed a shift. I was running some twisties with about twelve other bikes. Some of the bike ahead of me were so damn loud that I couldn't properly judge my revs by ear which is what I usually do. Anyway I think I missed a shift and over revd it. But I never noticed anything happen at that point it was probably a mile later maybe more before I noticed anything.

Hey Woodyeee did you get your JE pistons from Bill over here the turbo guy?

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post #37 of 308 Old 01-03-2011, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XRCajun View Post
I don't have an AFR meter I was just counting on having it properly dyno'd. I don't know this for sure but I think what might have happened is I may have done this when I missed a shift. I was running some twisties with about twelve other bikes. Some of the bike ahead of me were so damn loud that I couldn't properly judge my revs by ear which is what I usually do. Anyway I think I missed a shift and over revd it. But I never noticed anything happen at that point it was probably a mile later maybe more before I noticed anything.

Hey Woodyeee did you get your JE pistons from Bill over here the turbo guy?
Yes i got the je's from Bill.....now hurry up and get them plugs out!

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o222/woodyeee/IMAG0306.jpg
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post #38 of 308 Old 01-03-2011, 08:13 AM
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Dont get to flustered yet, Ive seen turbos blow out head gaskets and you either get coolant or oil or oil in your coolant A quick oil check will answer a few questions just dripple a little out, this may be youre issue. Its probally something deeper but Im holding out hope for ya, is it the stock gasket? If it is Im not sure Id trust it in a forced induction motor, I used cometic gaskets on a mustang that was doing that and never had another problem.

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post #39 of 308 Old 01-03-2011, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XRCajun View Post
I'm pretty sure he's not been back on the dyno yet. He's having some problems with boiling the coolant right now if he runs the boost to high. He seems to think it could be the head gasket. Mine doesn't coming anywhere close to over heating while on the dyno.
XRCajun,
A 919 has a large coolant volume but a smallish radiator. The smallish radiator means that once the engine block and all the coolant are up to full normal operating temperature, a loaded up hi output motor like yours will exceed the heat rejection rate of the radiator and the gauge will climb. As soon as the gauge is past the "fan on" position, the ever increasing coolant temp will increase the intake temperature and the combustion chamber temperature in particular, which increases the detonation potential. A fuel octane rating that is OK on at lower coolant temperatures could be inadequate for higher coolant temperature conditions.
If your coolant gauge is accurate, and has never climbed, it can only mean that your hi power runs have been of a fairly short duration on a cooler engine.
A turbo'd 919 under load on a dyno, is a perfect recipe for overheating unless the dyno runs are very carefully done.
If you ever tried to run at Bonnyville, I can guarantee your rad would be woefully inadequate and end in over heating.
You might want to get with woodyee on a bigger rad, I'm sure I remember he looked at grafting on a larger Honda factory rad, but ended up designing his own basic shape and getting one fabricated.

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post #40 of 308 Old 01-03-2011, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by woodyeee

I also had the pickup coil modified by bill at wave to be -4 degrees. To be honest with the je pistons, i have been told unless your running 15 psi or more you dont need to retard the ignition.

XRCajun, be careful with this.
The above is no doubt valid for woodyee BUT is for sure tied to fuel octane.
If woodyee has higher octane pump gas in his world than you do, the above may not hold true. I think the UK has premium fuel with higher numbers than you have.
Ask him what he is using re posted octane number, and be careful as to what the basis of the octane number is. {RON or MON or (RON+MON)/2, etc etc etc}

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