Head swap - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 08:07 AM Thread Starter
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Head swap

No no, nothing dirty.

I have a chance to get a cylinder head off of a 98 900rr. I ride a 03 919. Would there be any benifit to ripping apart everything and dealing with the bologna of mating it together. Or would the cam/throttle bodies of the 919 be limited to the point of no performance gain from the rr head?

Thanks in advance........

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post #2 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 01:12 PM
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there are no timing pulse buttons on the cam gears of the 98 model head... so you would have to take them to a machine shop and have the buttons welded on so you could use the earlier model head... thats where i stopped on my quest



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post #3 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 03:38 PM
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If you couldn't tell from the previous post, the cam is part of the head, so the 919 cam would not be a limiting factor since it wouldn't be on the bike anymore.

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post #4 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwoso View Post
If you couldn't tell from the previous post, the cam is part of the head, so the 919 cam would not be a limiting factor since it wouldn't be on the bike anymore.
i was under the impression he wanted to put the 900rr head on the 919 motor... and use the 919's fuel injection... if he does he will run into the problem i pointed out... because it has to have the timing button to make the injectors work.... and he cannot put the 900rr head on the 919 frame because the carbs will hit the frame and bottom of the tank........



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post #5 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 04:13 PM
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There was a guy who did the swap a few years ago, I think he was Austrailan - Big money, probably not really justifiable........

Let me see if I can find the info for you.

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post #6 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 04:28 PM
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Well, Steven Fisher did a lot of head work and added 40mm 929 throttle bodies, as well as a few other changes - he was getting a reported 160HP out of his machine.



160 at the rear wheel.



One has to wonder, how much did Buell pay him to put those decals on there.....



Here is a link -

Honda CB900 Hornet - Race Bike - Steven Fisher

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post #7 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barton664 View Post
there are no timing pulse buttons on the cam gears of the 98 model head... so you would have to take them to a machine shop and have the buttons welded on so you could use the earlier model head... thats where i stopped on my quest
Is it possible to use the 919 gears with the buttons and whatever senses them on the blade cams/head?

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post #8 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catonsvilleguy View Post
Is it possible to use the 919 gears with the buttons and whatever senses them on the blade cams/head?
i asked a local mechanic friend *(who had a set of 900rr cams i was gonna buy) and he said no..... that they had to be welded... which is no problem cause welding is one of my talents.... but i traded the 919 in on the vfr......



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post #9 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
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So I think I'm even more confused. I need a set of throttle bodies from a 929, then I need to get the pulse sensors welded?

Wouldn't I be better and easier to get a 929 head and throttle bodies? Would that just bolt together? If so I'm gonna do that!

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post #10 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian View Post
So I think I'm even more confused. I need a set of throttle bodies from a 929, then I need to get the pulse sensors welded?

Wouldn't I be better and easier to get a 929 head and throttle bodies? Would that just bolt together? If so I'm gonna do that!

Screw it all - supercharge it!

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post #11 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 07:56 PM Thread Starter
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Hey hey, ujm.

You may have turned me on to something.... Looks like some throttle bodies a ported stock head some valve springs and some 929 racing cams would do it. Funny, I've been searching high and low for a reasonable engine kit for this thing and I think the answer has been relativly in my face the whole time if this pans out in real life. Jeez. Big thumbs up to ya!

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post #12 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 08:07 PM Thread Starter
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I hear ya I'd love to put a turbo on its been a dream for a while. But right now I've lost my job and I'm going to go back to school for a career change so I'm ballin on a budget, but at least I'm ballin! Lol.

Figure I can tinker with some internals pretty cheap as long as I can find a decent deal on some used stuff, and not blow my bike up. I like ripping perfectly good running motors apart something special about that you just don't find in tearin down a broken one.

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post #13 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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Damnit, looks like its all coming together fairly inexpensive. Crap. Now I gotta buy stuff the wife dosent understand to make something go faster she dosent care about just to break it.



Seriously though if this all works out I'll be at 150hp for under 500 smakers, that's a deal!

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post #14 of 60 Old 10-28-2009, 09:17 PM
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Good luck, may you succeed where othere have failed. Personally I found the easiest way to get more performance out of the 919 was to trade it for a 954.....

"He was a wise man who invented Beer"--Plato
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post #15 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
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yeah i know but the 9er is paid for and i dont want a sport bike.

I think im doing a 929 throttle bodies set up with 929 cams and port my 919 head. the 929 cams should go in the 919 head.... right?

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post #16 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 02:49 PM
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If/When you get it to work make sure you make a full list and pictures and everything that needs to be done.

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post #17 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 02:50 PM
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I will believe it all when I see it. And I really hope I do get to see it! Good luck and keep us updated and take 100x more pictures than you think we want to see.

Spoiler:
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post #18 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 03:07 PM
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[crowd chanting] bri-an! bri-an! bri-an! bri-an! bri-an! bri-an! [/crowd chanting]

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[youtube]SmHeP9Sve48[/youtube]


Good luck man... DETAILED list, LOTS of pics

Abba Zaba, you my only friend.
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post #19 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 03:10 PM
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BTW, I just missed an opportunity to pick up a 98 CBR900rr for $1500

Wanted to do a wheel swap & then turn the RR into a track bike, but couldn't go through with it for multiple reasons... most of them being money related.

Best of luck to you!

Abba Zaba, you my only friend.
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post #20 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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anyone know if the 929 cams are direct drop in? I've done a little research and can't seem to find any info on the subject other than what UJM posted, which is good info but dosen't go into detail.

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post #21 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 04:24 PM
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Right off the bat, forget about a 929 or 954 head. Barton already covered this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian View Post
Hey hey, ujm.

You may have turned me on to something.... Looks like some throttle bodies a ported stock head some valve springs and some 929 racing cams would do it.
The assumption here being that all costs are for the parts. It only begins there.

First, the 919 cam sensor rotor is mounted on the intake cam while the 929 / 954 rotor is on the exhaust cam. A small thing , but ...

Doing the porting yourself? Add the cost of a replacement head. Don't look at me in that tone of voice!

What cam timing to use? How to set it up accurately keeping in mind a range of adjustment.

Fuel management? Forget a PCIII -- the fuel maps, ignition maps, rev limiter, hell -- everything will have to be adjustable to optimize all the disparate parts into a user friendly package. Not a cheap proposition. And no, a 929 control unit wouldn't be suitable either, and would be a mother to integrate.

You're also bumping the compression, right? I mean why pack all that air and fuel into a cylinder that gives it a gentle squeeze? Tear the motor down.

And, and, and ...

You can bet your bottom dollar any 919 pumping out 160 BHP has had practically every part inside that motor inspected and tweaked in some way by a very experienced engine builder. Their time is worth every penny if you want to get out the other end of this or any performance project with your bike, bank account, and sanity intact.

Quote:
Funny, I've been searching high and low for a reasonable engine kit for this thing and I think the answer has been relativly in my face the whole time if this pans out in real life. Jeez. Big thumbs up to ya!
As one who has gone down this particular garden path more often than I care to remember I can say the costs will be roughly 5 times what you think it will, at least for the first two, and the end result will be fast but not as much fun for day to day use after the first couple of months.

Turbocharging is a much better method of getting that kick in the butt while avoiding the worst of the peaky beast the 919 would have to become to get anywhere near 150 HP. Just say'in.

And then there's the chassis.

Rob

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post #22 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 04:54 PM
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Its the way to go...............

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post #23 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 05:10 PM
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cycle world did a story on a 919 in the may 2005 issue, Erion racing did the work on it for the owner Ken Vreeke and only picked up 16 hp. the engine was bored 1mm, cp pistons, stainless valves and special erion grind cams. they did the f4i front end swap and rear shock and had 13k in the work " not including the price of the 919".

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post #24 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 05:24 PM
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i dont think it would be a bad idea to swap throttle bodies .if that goes smooth then exhaust and pc 3 tuning should give this motor some more power.

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post #25 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 05:25 PM
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Don't forget, there is always that Wiseco big bore (970cc?) option - anyone seen or heard from that fellow in a while?

He works for Wiseco, did a few nice tricks, Ed - I think his name is Ed.

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post #26 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 05:32 PM
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Don't forget, there is always that Wiseco big bore (970cc?) option - anyone seen or heard from that fellow in a while?

He works for Wiseco, did a few nice tricks, Ed - I think his name is Ed.
see now we're talking i'll bet its not cheap but it'll get the job done.

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post #27 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 05:59 PM
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ratdog remembers the 970 - Hornet970 might of been his screen name -

970 required re-sleeving, 945 is bore job only.

Cams, iffy, not really needed, if I remember right.

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post #28 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
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Well, if nothing else this thread has been great food for thougt. I've been wanting a turbo but didn't wanna/ don't have the coin. The bike makes good power now, piped with a pcIII so maybe I'll just ride it until I can get my turbo moolah together. Woodee, that's a nice set up you got going there, what kind of swingarm is that and is there a thread detailing what you did? I was thinking of doing a vfr rear end but its a lot of work... Man I'm a little bummed I was thinkin the throttle bodies and cams would be basically a plug and play scenario, tuning aside.

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post #29 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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Ok last ? Then I'll let it die. 929 throttle bodies are fairley inexpensive and are 40mm. Do they just bolt right in place? And if so is there any power gains to be expected from this alone? Thanks for all the quality answers you guys rock!

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post #30 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 06:58 PM
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Well, that head nothing to do with this thread.....



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post #31 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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I dont get it, but it made me laugh. Not sure why.

Anybody got a word on the throttle body deali-os?

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post #32 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian View Post
Ok last ? Then I'll let it die. 929 throttle bodies are fairley inexpensive and are 40mm. Do they just bolt right in place? And if so is there any power gains to be expected from this alone? Thanks for all the quality answers you guys rock!
Though they might bolt on, if the port isn't matched to the bore of the throttle bodies that 2mm step at the joint becomes a 6mm turbulent blockage to bulk flow. Plus it will have unstable off closed behaviour that can cause snatchy throttle response. And no, the 919's throttle is not snatchy. It's just deadly accurate. Most novices won't agree, but what do they know?

In general, any single component replaced with an "upgraded" one will have small effect on power. Unfortunately the era of throw-it-together-at-the-factory-and-anyone-who-really-wants-performance-has-to-do-everything-the-factory-didn't-in-order-to-get-it is long gone, and the price for substantial gains rises accordingly.

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post #33 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 11:20 PM
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i say see if byrdman has another head and give it a shot... hell, its only money...



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post #34 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
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Cool, thats the answer I've been waiting for. So if I port my head to match the throttle bodies will bolt on and I could possibly expect some power gain?

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post #35 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 11:36 PM
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When I was younger, I wanted to change and modify everything. My 75 280z had and 82 (or so) turbo engine in her, and I blew the engine three times playing with compression, boost, and fuel pressure. It was an amazing experience. But, now, I try really hard to buy what it is that I want. So, what I'm getting at here, is why are so many folks trying to make the 919 something else. It is pretty good as is. My favorite answer will be, "because." Any rational answer is totally irrational.

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post #36 of 60 Old 10-29-2009, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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Well I've been a tinkerer (is that a word) my whole life. And I'm not trying to make it anything it's not. If I wanted a sport bike by all means I'd have one but I just want a little more juice. I'm used to ridding sport bikes and I love the sound of the inline 4's but after a busa and my other gsxrs the power of the niner in my opinon has a bit of room for improvment, I promise I'm not alone on this one. Plus I just like to dork around with stuff it's entertaining to me and I get a cool result from it, except the one time I blew the transmission in my mustang in half shot shards of metal everywhere and shredded a back tire hauling arse down the road. That stunk but I learned a stock T-5 bellhousing wasn't gonna hold up to 400 horses with out talking back.

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post #37 of 60 Old 10-30-2009, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian View Post
Well, if nothing else this thread has been great food for thougt. I've been wanting a turbo but didn't wanna/ don't have the coin. The bike makes good power now, piped with a pcIII so maybe I'll just ride it until I can get my turbo moolah together. Woodee, that's a nice set up you got going there, what kind of swingarm is that and is there a thread detailing what you did? I was thinking of doing a vfr rear end but its a lot of work... Man I'm a little bummed I was thinkin the throttle bodies and cams would be basically a plug and play scenario, tuning aside.
Brian its a honda cbr600rr swingarm i have fitted......I would think its probably the same amount of work as the vfr to fit it. Once you have the compleat cbr600rr swinger, shock and linkage, if you can or have easy access to machining, welding and fabricating its quite easy

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post #38 of 60 Old 10-30-2009, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sike View Post
When I was younger, I wanted to change and modify everything. My 75 280z had and 82 (or so) turbo engine in her, and I blew the engine three times playing with compression, boost, and fuel pressure. It was an amazing experience. But, now, I try really hard to buy what it is that I want. So, what I'm getting at here, is why are so many folks trying to make the 919 something else. It is pretty good as is. My favorite answer will be, "because." Any rational answer is totally irrational.
I think we all went through that phase, heck, many still do that stuff albeit a little wiser than we used to be.

My 944, I turned it back to bone stock. Make more power where I use it all the time. Before, sure, it made more power and was probably quicker and faster, but only in the last 1000 rpm of the powerband, at the expense of the low and mid range.

So the 4-2-1 Bursch wrapped header, the cat pipe, the open air intake, the other goodies went on eBay and I was ever so glad I retained all the stock parts -

Maybe that is why I am a pack rat......

This weekend my better half has dedicated a window of time for me to sort out the garage, might me time for someone else to take some of that stuff off my hands -

Never throw it away - eBay!

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post #39 of 60 Old 10-30-2009, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian View Post
Well I've been a tinkerer (is that a word) my whole life. And I'm not trying to make it anything it's not. If I wanted a sport bike by all means I'd have one but I just want a little more juice. I'm used to ridding sport bikes and I love the sound of the inline 4's but after a busa and my other gsxrs the power of the niner in my opinon has a bit of room for improvment, I promise I'm not alone on this one. Plus I just like to dork around with stuff it's entertaining to me and I get a cool result from it, except the one time I blew the transmission in my mustang in half shot shards of metal everywhere and shredded a back tire hauling arse down the road. That stunk but I learned a stock T-5 bellhousing wasn't gonna hold up to 400 horses with out talking back.
Wrong answer, way to rational...

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post #40 of 60 Old 10-30-2009, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
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, if you can or have easy access to machining, welding and fabricating its quite easy
oh, so I'm sticking with the vfr idea. the 600rr one looks good though but something about the single sided deal, plus I love the vfr wheel. Thanks for the info though. When i get closer to budget for a turbo I may hit you up for info i like the way yours sits behind the mill. The others I've seen sit right up front and look like they may be in the way of road debris ect. plus yours looks a little more hidden,


Got any pics of it with the tank on ect? I saw your sig but I'm still seeing the dual cans so I'm thinking thats a before pic? I like the slash cut pipe ALOT!

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