GP shift on 919 - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 41 Old 10-02-2006, 06:17 PM Thread Starter
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GP shift on 919

I read the thread on reversing the shift pattern on the RC51, and was curious, has anyone tried to put the shift lever from a VFR on a 919 to reverse the shift pattern? It looks like a much better setup than using the stock linkage, and I was wondering if it would work on the 919 the way it works on the RC51.

-Joe
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post #2 of 41 Old 10-02-2006, 07:07 PM
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post #3 of 41 Old 10-02-2006, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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I have read the above threads numerous times, and my bike is set up this way, but that is not my question. I'm curious if anyone has set up their 919 like this, or is it even possible?
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-Joe
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post #4 of 41 Old 10-02-2006, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
I have read the above threads numerous times, and my bike is set up this way, but that is not my question. I'm curious if anyone has set up their 919 like this, or is it even possible?
Knock-knock Anybody home???

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post #5 of 41 Old 10-02-2006, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
I read the thread on reversing the shift pattern on the RC51, and was curious, has anyone tried to put the shift lever from a VFR on a 919 to reverse the shift pattern? It looks like a much better setup than using the stock linkage, and I was wondering if it would work on the 919 the way it works on the RC51.
i don't recall reading about anyone making a GP mod using that method...sourcing a vfr (or whatever) lever and droppin the linkage

not sure why you think " looks like a much better setup"...makes me wonder if you think the stock linkage is not so good?

can't tell you why noone has tried it 'that way' other than using the linkage method is free and easily reversed...not that $30 for a veffer lever would brake the bank


hook, if u try it...let us know how it works out

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post #6 of 41 Old 10-02-2006, 08:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
It looks like a much better setup than using the stock linkage,
I agree with you hooker, it looks better, more direct, whether it would feel better or not I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by ratdog View Post
hook, if u try it...let us know how it works out
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post #7 of 41 Old 10-02-2006, 09:21 PM
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I'll stick my neck out here and say, "I have to admit, there's no way in hell I'll be doing that to my bike."
Not because I think it will hurt the bike in any way 'cause obviously it won't, but I just know that after some 20 odd years of riding with the "normal" setup, I'll be banging my way "up" the gears one day and something unexpected will happen and I'll find myself going down a gear when I should be going up and all hell will break loose.
Immediately after the rear tyre does!

Sod that!
There's no way my brain could handle such a fundamental change in operations after so long doing it the same way!
But good luck to those who can!

post #8 of 41 Old 10-03-2006, 03:43 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdog View Post
i don't recall reading about anyone making a GP mod using that method...sourcing a vfr (or whatever) lever and droppin the linkage

not sure why you think " looks like a much better setup"...makes me wonder if you think the stock linkage is not so good?
Guess I should clarify...As I see it, the stock setup linkage works at optimum angles, all 90-degree in relation to the tie rod connections at the shifter and the gearshift arm. When the gearshift arm is rotated 180 degrees and the tie rod is reconnected, the angles of the tie rod connections become more extreme. Now granted, this is just a single tie rod on a bike, not the flight controls of a 30,000 lb aircraft (where all my mechanical experience comes from), but the principles are still the same. The stress on the tie rod ends in the GP setup is possibly more, given the extreme angles. It also allows slop in the shift linkage to cause more problems during shifting.

I thought that mounting the shifter to the gearshift spindle would alleviate all these issues. All shifts would be direct, rather than traveling through a linkage that has too many extreme angles to it.

Now I may be way off base here. As I said before, I changed my bike to the GP setup, and I have no issues whatsoever. I was just curious if it would work, and I might even try it, if I can make a couple of measurements at the dealer first.

-Joe
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post #9 of 41 Old 10-03-2006, 06:49 AM
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Hey if you try it and get it to work i would definitally switch over to it. Its less to wrry about its jsut one part opposed to several parts taht can come loose or break or bend.

Few people understand the amazingness of simplicity

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post #10 of 41 Old 10-03-2006, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DropBear 9 View Post
I'll stick my neck out here and say, "I have to admit, there's no way in hell I'll be doing that to my bike."
Not because I think it will hurt the bike in any way 'cause obviously it won't, but I just know that after some 20 odd years of riding with the "normal" setup, I'll be banging my way "up" the gears one day and something unexpected will happen and I'll find myself going down a gear when I should be going up and all hell will break loose.
Immediately after the rear tyre does!

Sod that!
There's no way my brain could handle such a fundamental change in operations after so long doing it the same way!
But good luck to those who can!
You obviously have never ridden any of the vintage Brit bikes. Not only will the shift pattern(1 up 3 down) screw with your head; the shift was on the right side of the bike.

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post #11 of 41 Old 10-03-2006, 09:29 AM
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Switched mine over a few weeks ago and still think it's great. I agree that the linkage is at a much steeper angle but checked it closely and everything seems to operate as smooth as before. In fact, it feels like it shifts cleaner but that's probably because of the more natural feeling downward foot motion.

Almost like tapping your toe to good music!

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post #12 of 41 Old 10-03-2006, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
Guess I should clarify...As I see it, the stock setup linkage works at optimum angles, all 90-degree in relation to the tie rod connections at the shifter and the gearshift arm. When the gearshift arm is rotated 180 degrees and the tie rod is reconnected, the angles of the tie rod connections become more extreme. Now granted, this is just a single tie rod on a bike, not the flight controls of a 30,000 lb aircraft (where all my mechanical experience comes from), but the principles are still the same. The stress on the tie rod ends in the GP setup is possibly more, given the extreme angles. It also allows slop in the shift linkage to cause more problems during shifting.

ok, that's what i thought you might be on about but wasn't sure...

yes, all that you say is true....in fact, i learned the hard way which is why i put the comment in the other thread about checking position and makin folks aware that an overzealous GPstyle upshift can actually snap the shift lever up against your shin if you haven't aligned thing properly (which comes from trial and error in my case)

what i wanted to relate to folks was, don't panic...if it happens, it's not a big deal and you can push the lever back down until you have a chance to revisit the adjustment...going this other route would eliminate that problem

as for the more direct feel....i suppose it should be and would be interested in comparing the feel to the sato setup i'm using

with luck, and it bein a Honda, there ought to be a lever that would fit the spindle on the 9r's trans...i just don't have any veffer parts layin around and the 929 lever i have is busted up

lookin forward to hearin how this goes hook

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post #13 of 41 Old 10-03-2006, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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I'm going to go down to the dealer in the next couple of days and see if they will let me compare a few parts. I'll let you guys know what I find out.

-Joe
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post #14 of 41 Old 10-12-2006, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I got the parts in (VFR shifter) and installed on the 919. The teeth and diameter are right, but the shift arm itself is a little longer than the stock. I took pictures throughout so you can see what I am talking about. My personal opinion: it works, and the shift is very clean, but it space is tight with the shift lever being so close to your foot. I am more comfortable with flipping the linkage, even though the shift feels smoother with the VFR arm. Also, the VFR lever could use a longer mount bolt, since only about 2/3 of the threads of the threads of the shift arm are engaged. If anyone knows of a shift arm that is shorter and will fit the VFR, let me know. Here's the pics...
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-Joe
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post #15 of 41 Old 10-12-2006, 06:35 PM
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cut it
drill it
mount a new lever peg...it'll work

good to hear it fits...now it's time to check all other honda models

who's goin to the dealer first???

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post #16 of 41 Old 01-10-2007, 05:57 AM
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remember this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
Well, I got the parts in (VFR shifter) and installed on the 919. The teeth and diameter are right, but the shift arm itself is a little longer than the stock. I took pictures throughout so you can see what I am talking about. My personal opinion: it works, and the shift is very clean, but it space is tight with the shift lever being so close to your foot. I am more comfortable with flipping the linkage, even though the shift feels smoother with the VFR arm. Also, the VFR lever could use a longer mount bolt, since only about 2/3 of the threads of the threads of the shift arm are engaged. If anyone knows of a shift arm that is shorter and will fit the VFR, let me know. Here's the pics...
Just wanted to hear an update... I am VERY interested in this mod/setup for my 9'r. I have a couple questions.
What year VFR Pedal did you use, Does it matter?
Are you still using it?
Do you like it?
Has anyone else found something better?
I may want to start out the spring with the 1 up, 5 down and any input would be great. Thanks.

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post #17 of 41 Old 01-10-2007, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Footastic02 View Post
Just wanted to hear an update... I am VERY interested in this mod/setup for my 9'r. I have a couple questions.
What year VFR Pedal did you use, Does it matter?
Are you still using it?
Do you like it?
Has anyone else found something better?
I may want to start out the spring with the 1 up, 5 down and any input would be great. Thanks.
Actually, I went back to just using the linkage because the VFR shifter was too long. I kept the GP (reverse) setup, and am very happy with it.

I actually went down to the dealer with the VFR shifter and sized it up with all the Hondas they had on the floor. It looks like the teeth and diameter are the same for almost all the bikes, to include the CR's and XR's. The only bike that I found with a shorter shifter was the NSF100. It is actually mounted directly to the shaft, so it was easy to see that it would work perfectly on the 919. It is also a steel shifter, as opposed to the alloy that the VFR part is made out of. While I was still at the dealer, I had him look it up and they quoted me about $25.00. I haven't ordered one yet, but now that you reminded me, I might stop by tonight and put one on order.

-Joe
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post #18 of 41 Old 01-10-2007, 07:22 AM
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After several months of trouble free operation, I'm still very happy with the GP setup. You guys can go ahead and spend more $ on the VFR shifter if it floats your boat. I won't be so pompous as to tell someone how to mod their bike. What I can tell you from experience is that the stock 919 linkage works just fine when reversed. Almost 5 months of trouble free operation so far. It feels even smoother than when it was in stock position.

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post #19 of 41 Old 01-10-2007, 08:06 AM Thread Starter
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Everybody seems to get so worked up when I bring this up. I'm not trying to say that you need to buy a VFR shifter; hell, the shifter is too long anyway! I'm just looking at other ways to set-up the bike without putting the linkage at angles it wasn't designed to be at. That said, my linkage is set-up this way, and I have had zero problems with it. It is a free mod that is fantastic, in my opinion.

-Joe
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post #20 of 41 Old 01-10-2007, 08:23 AM
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Razor: I bet the stock linkage works just great reversed also.. and believe me I wont throw it away. Free is good, however, I really like the direct lever mount for a more simple look in addition to the reversed shifting pattern.

Hooker: Thanks for the nsf100 insight. That sounds even better (shorter/steel) for me and I'll look into that today. I'm also ordering a 520 chain conversion kit for quicker pick up off the line. Can't wait to get this done and see how it feels on a nice day soon!!!

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post #21 of 41 Old 01-10-2007, 08:36 AM
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Reversed

Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
I read the thread on reversing the shift pattern on the RC51, and was curious, has anyone tried to put the shift lever from a VFR on a 919 to reverse the shift pattern? It looks like a much better setup than using the stock linkage, and I was wondering if it would work on the 919 the way it works on the RC51.
When I bought my '02 919, I reversed the shift pattern by rotating the link 170 degrees (one spline short of 180) before I ever rode it. Checked the travel for upshift / downshift, which will indicate a problem with the linkage angles, and found a difference of less than 0.01 inch -- well within acceptable limits. As I have done this on every bike I've owned for the last 20 years, there was no mental adjustment required. Oh, and only two missed shifts in the last 2 1/2 years, mainly due to inattention, and the proximity of a large number of people to witness it! The only problem in doing this is the water pump is in the way of the bolt, so the arm has to be rotated forward to install it.
Rob

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On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
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post #22 of 41 Old 01-10-2007, 07:04 PM
 
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I still think this is a cool idea and if I wanted to switch to a gp shift I would definitely have a NSF100 shifter on order. I love clean simplicity.

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post #23 of 41 Old 01-10-2007, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
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I am ordering one tomorrow, so if anyone would like to wait and see how it fits, I will post up next week to update.

-Joe
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post #24 of 41 Old 01-11-2007, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
I am ordering one tomorrow, so if anyone would like to wait and see how it fits, I will post up next week to update.
Please do...I guess I can wait. You're a great guinea pig Hooker.

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post #25 of 41 Old 01-18-2007, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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I called the dealer today to find out about my shift lever. It's on backorder, gonna take another couple weeks. Just thought I would let the people who are watching and waiting know.

-Joe
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post #26 of 41 Old 01-22-2007, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
I called the dealer today to find out about my shift lever. It's on backorder, gonna take another couple weeks. Just thought I would let the people who are watching and waiting know.
crap.

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post #27 of 41 Old 03-03-2007, 07:35 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, shifter finally came in, and I installed it a few days ago. I wanted to ride with it a little just to see how it felt and try to give an honest opinion. Here it is.

If you're bored, and want to put one on, go for it. The only downside I had is the adjustability isn't there like it is with the stock linkage. The shift is a little cleaner, but hardly noticeable. It is more solid, but that's all I really noticed. Not a fantastic gain over the linkage. The only other drawback I can see would be in the event of a drop. A single piece of metal would probably get damaged easier, since its mount point is solid, where the one in the linkage has a little more give. However, if you did bend the shifter, it would be easy to fix. And because the NSF100 shifter is made out of steel and not aluminum alloy, like the VFR's, it can take a little bending and straightening without breaking.

I took some pics, and the first one is with the shifter still in the bag with the part number, so if you want to order one, you can be sure to get the right one. If anyone has any other questions, let 'em rip and I'll try to answer as best I can.
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File Type: jpg DSCN0629.JPG (657.7 KB, 58 views)
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File Type: jpg DSCN0631.JPG (714.5 KB, 64 views)
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-Joe
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post #28 of 41 Old 03-03-2007, 09:50 PM
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When I bought my 919 2 1/2 years ago I reversed the shift by flipping the linkage arm before I rode it and checked the travel of the shift lever for up and down shifts -- less than 0.010 difference, a good indication that the linkage geometry was not significantly altered. Slight adjustment of the link was required, but nothing unusual. This is one of the main reasons I prefer the linkage setup to a solid shifter, especially one intended for another bike -- fine tuning the position of the shifter is possible. With solid, it is usually too high on one spline, and too low on the next: ya pays your money and takes yer choice. That difference alone is, at least for me, a dealbreaker. Just give the ball joints an occasional spritz of lithium grease, and ride it.
--- BTW Ratdog, I don't see how the geometry could possibly be so screwed up on a 919 that the lever could go over center -- I tried, and with the stock components it couldn't be done. At least I couldn't do it.

Rob

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post #29 of 41 Old 03-04-2007, 12:15 AM
 
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Thanks for investigating this for us Hooker.

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post #30 of 41 Old 03-04-2007, 06:30 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
When I bought my 919 2 1/2 years ago I reversed the shift by flipping the linkage arm before I rode it and checked the travel of the shift lever for up and down shifts -- less than 0.010 difference, a good indication that the linkage geometry was not significantly altered.

Rob
I am not quite sure where you are getting the 0.010 difference from, but that wasn't my point in the beginning. I simply looked at the linkage angles, which went from 90-degrees stock to 45-degrees when flipped for reverse shifting. I thought that perhaps I could do something to make the setup better. That was my only motive for this whole thing. In the end, I think that I did make it better, and lucky for me, the position the shifter is in now is very close to where I had it before, making my transition seamless...

-Joe
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post #31 of 41 Old 03-04-2007, 09:48 AM
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Honda CB750K shift lever

Looking at that shift lever got me thinking. Knowing that Honda has many interchangeable parts. Went out to the parts bin and found a shift lever from a Honda CB750K. Any year 1969 - 1976 they are all the same. Low and behold it fits and the distance is right on the money. Notice the finish on this old lever, not too shabby. Anyway; just another option....


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post #32 of 41 Old 03-04-2007, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Looking at that shift lever got me thinking. Knowing that Honda has many interchangeable parts. Went out to the parts bin and found a shift lever from a Honda CB750K. Any year 1969 - 1976 they are all the same. Low and behold it fits and the distance is right on the money. Notice the finish on this old lever, not too shabby. Anyway; just another option....

Nice Mike! That's a good look. I think if you find a Honda lever that you like, it will fit the gear shaft. Every lever I looked at used the same diameter and tooth size that the 919 uses. Mine's not near as pretty as that one, though...

-Joe
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post #33 of 41 Old 03-11-2009, 04:37 PM
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I put the NSF100 shifter on my bike last season, but never had a chance to ride it. After two nice days of riding all i can say is... I donno? Now I have only been riding for about 4 1/2 years, and i have some habits. every time i stop i click down 3-4 time so make shure I'm in 1st. My second time out not thinking i managed to put my bike in 4th gear and stall in front of 20+ angry cars. The same thing goes for down shifting quick, i found myself in 5th gear at 30mph. Now before I make it sound like I don't care for the swap, I do like just pushing down to go to the next gear, and hopefully at the drag strip I'll be able to knock of some time off. My old shift arm was bent and didnt like to be power shifted. Now I just stomp and go. Thanx to hooker for doin all the work.
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post #34 of 41 Old 03-12-2009, 08:40 AM
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I have done GP shift conversions on every motorcycle I've owned for the last 30 years, and every one has been a linkage system. There is only one downside to a fixed shift lever: height adjustment. With a linkage moving the lever 3 degrees is simple, but with a reversed lever you are limited to moving it one tooth on the spline in either direction, a very hit or miss proposition. If you are lucky it will be just right, but that's not the way to bet. Having ridden many bikes with linkages and without I can say that any difference in feel is so subtle it is practically indiscernable (unless there is a problem with the linkage somewhere) until you have lots of experience with lots of different bikes. I can feel a difference, but it mainly boils down to travel versus required force, which with a link system is also adjustable.

As to "stomping" on the shifter -- NOT NECESSARY!! If it takes more than 10 pounds of force you're doing it wrong! 'Nuff said.

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
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post #35 of 41 Old 03-13-2009, 08:18 AM
 
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Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
I have done GP shift conversions on every motorcycle I've owned for the last 30 years, and every one has been a linkage system. There is only one downside to a fixed shift lever: height adjustment. With a linkage moving the lever 3 degrees is simple, but with a reversed lever you are limited to moving it one tooth on the spline in either direction, a very hit or miss proposition. If you are lucky it will be just right, but that's not the way to bet. Having ridden many bikes with linkages and without I can say that any difference in feel is so subtle it is practically indiscernable (unless there is a problem with the linkage somewhere) until you have lots of experience with lots of different bikes. I can feel a difference, but it mainly boils down to travel versus required force, which with a link system is also adjustable.

As to "stomping" on the shifter -- NOT NECESSARY!! If it takes more than 10 pounds of force you're doing it wrong! 'Nuff said.

Rob
Me too. Tried to go back to conventional w/919 and locked the rear up a few times at speed before changing to G/P. Helps me keep from blowing shifts as well. Switched to simple VFR setup on my 954 to go G/P and it works great. Lost adjustability but you just get used to it after a few rides. I suggest switching all your bikes if you are going to do it, especially if you are an aggressive rider. Going to a lower gear when intended to upshift can easily lock up your rear wheel.

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post #36 of 41 Old 03-13-2009, 12:33 PM
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Great thread.
Cool about the other lever working.

Rob, I'm not sure why the lever was able to flip up on my, I may have installed it at something other than 1 spline off that time. I actually have video of it happening and will take a close look, see if I can pick up on anything. As i can remember, it only happen 2, maybe 3 times in many thousands of miles which makes me think it was an overpressure thing on the upshift perhaps?

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post #37 of 41 Old 03-13-2009, 12:59 PM
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I was looking at the bike the other day and wandering if i could just flip the linkage over. I think that is what rob said he did, but not sure.

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post #38 of 41 Old 03-13-2009, 01:02 PM
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I was looking at the bike the other day and wandering if i could just flip the linkage over. I think that is what rob said he did, but not sure.
Read post #2 by ratdog


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post #39 of 41 Old 03-13-2009, 01:16 PM
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Thank you mister mike. I saw his post but failed to click on the links. I didn't think it could be so easy.

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post #40 of 41 Old 03-13-2009, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdog View Post
Great thread.
Cool about the other lever working.

Rob, I'm not sure why the lever was able to flip up on my, I may have installed it at something other than 1 spline off that time. I actually have video of it happening and will take a closer look, see if I can pick up on anything. As i can remember, it only happened 2, maybe 3 times in many thousands of miles which makes me think it was an overpressure thing on the upshif perhaps?
err, typo city

too many things happening today...

Should've been, too much toe pressure pressing up on the shift lever during the downshift perhaps ? I was able to flip the lever back down by hand w/o incident, just surprised me is all. Haven't heard of any others reporting a similar incident.

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