General comments about the PC3 - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 38 Old 11-07-2006, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
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General comments about the PC3

got this idea from the other PC3 thread

I'm wondering out of the folks that have PC3's, how is/was your experience after the install everything from the good and bad. For example: power was great at the bottom rpm but sucked everywhere else... talking out my arshe here cause i don't have one.....

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post #2 of 38 Old 11-07-2006, 07:21 PM
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I like mine! It smoothed out the powerband nicely, got rid of the nasty richness at idle and everywhere else. It also cured (partially) the abrupt on/off throttle transition that the 9er has stock.

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post #3 of 38 Old 11-07-2006, 07:24 PM
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I'm happy with mine now. When it was new and I was learning about it, I had a couple of concerns with the Kyle sato map. It didn't start easily and wanted to run hotter than when stock. See the other current thread for my detailed opinion.

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post #4 of 38 Old 11-08-2006, 04:57 PM
 
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I like mine, took less time to install than I thought it would. Power is better in the mid range, front wheel come up a little sooner. I think there was a slight difference in exhaust note, I dont really remember though. Overall, Im happy with it.

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post #5 of 38 Old 11-08-2006, 06:47 PM
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I think it may help if you state the year of your bike since the 04's onward have a different stock map. My bike doesn't seem too rich to begin with so I'm not very motivated to mess with a PC3 unless I'm convinced it would make a noticeable diff.

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post #6 of 38 Old 11-08-2006, 08:32 PM
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I have an '05. All stock except for flapper mod. (and some aesthetic changes)
I fitted the PCIII about two months back. Purchased from Dan Kyle, shipped to me here in Oz. (Excellent service by the way!) Pre-loaded with Dan's map for stock bike.
Difference was subtle yet noticeable. Generally smoother performance, a little more "go" in general, the front end seems a little more eager to leave the tarmac, though it's not a drastic change.
It does feel a little "stronger" overall and the throttle response is a lot more "controlled". For eg. if I'm in 1st, just going 'round a corner with heavy traffic, I don't feel the need to keep the clutch on the edge of slipping because the throttle just seems to "behave itself" a lot better. (sorry, it's the best way I can describe it.)

The activation of the "Accelerator Pump" feature also made a positive impact on the way the motor responds to quick blips of the throttle. I tend to blip the throttle a lot when changing down gears and the motor definitely reacts quicker now, meaning my downshifts are quicker and smoother than ever.

Absolutely no negative effects at all. Not a one!
A very highly recommended addition to anyones 9er regardless of how modded or not your bike is. Plus if I ever do get around to changing the zorts, I'll already have the tools available to get the most out of them.

Highly recommended.

post #7 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 12:38 AM
 
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waste of 300 bucks.. I bought one and played with about 10 different maps. even went as far as taking it to a dyno tuning place that specialized in FI mapping. I was not impressed at all. I would rather have spent 300 bucks on a new set of tires.


btw... uninstalled and sold 2 yrs ago for 150 bucks. I was out 150 plus 70 for the dyno tuning but I was having probs with the bike on cold starts and it was messing with my idle. Tune it to start cold better then it ran like a dog.

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post #8 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 07:52 AM
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I have an '04 and am glad I bought the PC3. As others have said, it smoothed out the harshness at low RPM, less jerky. Mine starts with nothing more than a one second start button push, Idles normally. It certainly leaned out the rich air/fuel mixture that makes most stock bikes sooty at the exhaust outlet. I'd rather burn that fuel effeciently than partially burn it and waste the rest. It increased my mpg by about 5-10% (depending on how I ride.)

I enjoyed changing maps on the fly, with the motor running and my "notebook" hooked up! Drop in a different map, the rpm's drop for a second, then come right back up and you know it took.

The accelerator pump feature is OK but either I've gotten used to it, or I have the settings too low. I don't see much from it.

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post #9 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 10:08 AM
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Installed it in my 06 3-4 months ago... Bought it used from ebay and was not happy at first. I was cursing Powercomander for a week. After exchanging many maps, I finally found the right one. Now, I'd would hate to go back to stock. The bike springs to life with the right tuning. Wheelies are very easy manking them controlled and predicable. Its so responsive that I have to be very careful not to goose it on cold mornings taking turns from a stop in first gear. Actually had the back tire come out from under me serveral times from spinning on the road. Mind you I also did the vortex 520 conversion shorty after...

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post #10 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 10:14 AM
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I was looking into the PC3, but when I talked to a mechanic hear in San Antonio, he said I would have major problems with it, namely, I move alot (military) and the PC3 wouldn't respond well to the different climates. As I understand it, the fuel injection can make up for differences in the humidity and elevation, but with the PC3, it is a set map that will not compensate for variables outside. Is there any truth to this?

-Joe
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post #11 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
I was looking into the PC3, but when I talked to a mechanic hear in San Antonio, he said I would have major problems with it, namely, I move alot (military) and the PC3 wouldn't respond well to the different climates. As I understand it, the fuel injection can make up for differences in the humidity and elevation, but with the PC3, it is a set map that will not compensate for variables outside. Is there any truth to this?
As far as I know, the PC's place offsets in the profile of the onboard data. This is reffered to as a 'Map'. It does not actually replace the onboard programming, it enhances it. Therefore, any dynamic action the onboard program may provide given the telemetry it recieves from various engine management sensors is not negated, but might be affected given how much of an offset the the map introduces for any given point in the system curve. FI is so much better at handling the changes in altitude as well as swings in climate than carbs were. Afterall, it's all software. I would argue that a PC is necesarry on a stock bike unless the thing is just so damn choked up with emissions control that it is a pain.
I ran my ZX10R with a PCIII usb for 17,000 miles with the stock bike map right up til when I got my Akropovic full Ti a month or so ago.
How is my power and performance?
A bit lost at maybe 3 or 4 k, hairy ball gorilla from 7 or 8 on up to 13. The bike had more power than I'd ever use up top before, now it has even stoopider power. It does pop on occasion on decel, and when it is idling, it sounds a bit camy. I gotta throw a common 2 cents in, and that is if you change your pipes and or muff, get it and be done with it. It will help tune your ride to as best as you can get it done.

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post #12 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaa View Post
As far as I know, the PC's place offsets in the profile of the onboard data. This is reffered to as a 'Map'. It does not actually replace the onboard programming, it enhances it. Therefore, any dynamic action the onboard program may provide given the telemetry it recieves from various engine management sensors is not negated, but might be affected given how much of an offset the the map introduces for any given point in the system curve. FI is so much better at handling the changes in altitude as well as swings in climate than carbs were. Afterall, it's all software. I would argue that a PC is necesarry on a stock bike unless the thing is just so damn choked up with emissions control that it is a pain.
I ran my ZX10R with a PCIII usb for 17,000 miles with the stock bike map right up til when I got my Akropovic full Ti a month or so ago.
How is my power and performance?
A bit lost at maybe 3 or 4 k, hairy ball gorilla from 7 or 8 on up to 13. The bike had more power than I'd ever use up top before, now it has even stoopider power. It does pop on occasion on decel, and when it is idling, it sounds a bit camy. I gotta throw a common 2 cents in, and that is if you change your pipes and or muff, get it and be done with it. It will help tune your ride to as best as you can get it done.
I thought the guy might not have a clue. It made more sense to me that the PC will change the fuel/air mixture dependent on the map, but it cannot just replace the adaptibility of the fuel injection all together. If that was the case, lots of bikes wouldn't start properly just based on outside temperature, and I haven't heard of any problems with that.

(Just for reference, I'm still running stock. I wanted the PC to try to lean the mixture a little bit.)

-Joe
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post #13 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 02:43 PM
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I'm running one on an '03 919. The power delivery is deffinitely smoother and when jumped on, it just takes off. Much less poping on deceleration. Is it faster? Too close to call. I think it's better and my clothes don't stink as much. Wish I had access to a dyno to calm any possible mind effect.

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post #14 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
I thought the guy might not have a clue. It made more sense to me that the PC will change the fuel/air mixture dependent on the map, but it cannot just replace the adaptibility of the fuel injection all together. If that was the case, lots of bikes wouldn't start properly just based on outside temperature, and I haven't heard of any problems with that.

(Just for reference, I'm still running stock. I wanted the PC to try to lean the mixture a little bit.)
All bikes roll out of the box compromised to meet noise and emissions rules. Since they run the test at a pre-determined gear and rev the factory puts a big hole there to meet the limit. The PC lets you get rid of the holes.

Anyone who's spent time re-jetting carbs vs. logging in with a laptop will be more than happy to sign on with the PC. Make sure you follow the instructions when installing and loading maps. Some of the steps are not idiot proof so when you do what you think should be right, you're wrong. Never button tune. Spend some time asking around for a local dyno guy who knows the ins and outs of your bike. If you can't find on familiar with your bike ask here what the quirks are and then find a guy who's willing to listen (lots won't)to you about any temps the passes must be made at etc.

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post #15 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
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All bikes roll out of the box compromised to meet noise and emissions rules. Since they run the test at a pre-determined gear and rev the factory puts a big hole there to meet the limit. The PC lets you get rid of the holes.

Anyone who's spent time re-jetting carbs vs. logging in with a laptop will be more than happy to sign on with the PC. Make sure you follow the instructions when installing and loading maps. Some of the steps are not idiot proof so when you do what you think should be right, you're wrong. Never button tune. Spend some time asking around for a local dyno guy who knows the ins and outs of your bike. If you can't find on familiar with your bike ask here what the quirks are and then find a guy who's willing to listen (lots won't)to you about any temps the passes must be made at etc.
See, that's what turns me off about the whole thing. I don't have the time to mess with dyno's and all the rest of that stuff. If I could install it and know that the map would work and the bike would run a little smoother, I would drop the money. But knowing that I would have to mess around with the maps and I might not be able to get it running right the first time...I have too many other things to do...like riding!

-Joe
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post #16 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 07:30 PM
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Come on, hooker_47, you're a darned Army Aviator! I'm a simple retired Army Quartermaster officer and I got it right the first time! Do you have access to a laptop? Can you follow simple, marginal photographs to remove your seat and make about three plug in's, splice one wire, and attach another to your battery? Sure you can! For cryin' out loud, you've mastered the '47-D!

Forget the Dyno! I've never been near a dyno. I got two maps that were for exhaust systems close to mine and I've never looked back. Changing maps is as simple as plugging in both ends of a USB cable, booting up your laptop, and following onscreen directions to change maps and play with the accelerator pump.

Now get out there and have some fun with that thing!

Hey, I heard on the radio on the way home from work that the Air Force is going to buy a bunch of CH-47D's for search and rescue! I thought they loved their CH-53's. At least they didn't buy those Marine Corps tripods (CH-46's)!

Regards,

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post #17 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 09:50 PM
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Dyno with PC3

Hey all, I'm getting mine dyno'd next week because I'm buying a speed triple from a dealer. bargined to have it thrown in. I'll post the results here.

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post #18 of 38 Old 11-09-2006, 10:38 PM
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I highly advise, if you want the most out of your investment, Dyno it.
I recommend using Dan Kyle's map.
I used it, He's damn good.
I had the bike Dyno'd at Spectrum Motorsports Ducati/Aprilia in Irvine CA for the fine tuning.
After 3 hrs. of work it only gained 1bhp & 1 ft-lb of torque over Dans settings.
The big change was the air-fuel ratio It was a low 12 & wavy,Now almost a perfect straight 13!,as dyno readings go. One of the best they have seen.
The bikes rideability improved and no exhaust smell.Roll on's,Roll off's,smooth as glass.
It was, in my opinion, well worth it.You twist the throttle,it responds.
Steady state cruse,smooth.You can crawl it at 2 mph-5mph,No chugging.
There is no way to tell,unless your sniffer is CARB approved,how the air fuel mix is set, rich or lean,without an inferred hooked up.
Even the button tuning won't tell you what it's doing,it's a guess at best.
At the very least you will see on the print out exactly how the PC3 is working & if your map is even close to being right.

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post #19 of 38 Old 11-10-2006, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by support_six View Post
Come on, hooker_47, you're a darned Army Aviator! I'm a simple retired Army Quartermaster officer and I got it right the first time! Do you have access to a laptop? Can you follow simple, marginal photographs to remove your seat and make about three plug in's, splice one wire, and attach another to your battery? Sure you can! For cryin' out loud, you've mastered the '47-D!

Forget the Dyno! I've never been near a dyno. I got two maps that were for exhaust systems close to mine and I've never looked back. Changing maps is as simple as plugging in both ends of a USB cable, booting up your laptop, and following onscreen directions to change maps and play with the accelerator pump.

Now get out there and have some fun with that thing!
I wasn't worried about the installation, I just don't know if I want to deal with everything afterward. I guess what I am looking for is someone to say, "Hey, you can put this thing on, and your bike will run better with the stock map from Dan Kyle, and everything will be hunky-dory." If no one has that experience with it, then I don't have $300-$400 to spend on one.

Quote:
Hey, I heard on the radio on the way home from work that the Air Force is going to buy a bunch of CH-47D's for search and rescue! I thought they loved their CH-53's. At least they didn't buy those Marine Corps tripods (CH-46's)!

Regards,
Sounds like the Air Force finally figured out what the Army has known all along! Guess we don't get to do any more CSAR missions with the AF anymore though. That's a bummer. I really enjoyed those things.

-Joe
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post #20 of 38 Old 11-10-2006, 05:30 AM
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The gains are small at best but they are there. Honda has to pass emissions and their maps produce less than the best possible smoothness and response. That's probably the biggest selling point, you get smoother and better response right out of the box with minimal fiddling.

If you are looking for more power, a PC3 alone won't do much. On a stock bike your limiting factor is how well your bike can breathe, not how well it can deliver fuel. Pipes + PC3 will give you the a decent power boost without getting into your engine guts.

The way a PC3 works is pretty simple.

Your fuel pump spins up and maintains a constant (high) pressure delivery of fuel to the injectors. The engine CPU looks at RPM and throttle position and decides how long and how often it needs to open the injectors and spray fuel.

Let's say your bike is spinning at 6000 RPM and throttle is 10% open. The CPU looks up some value on a table and it decides it needs to open the injectors for 5 milliseconds every 20 milliseconds (totally made up numbers). The CPU actually sends an electrical signal to the injector that looks like a square wave that is high for 5ms and low for 15ms.

The PC3 is installed between the CPU and the injectors. It intercepts these signals and can modify the shape of that wave. Want it leaner? The PC3 changes that signal to be high for only 4ms instead of 5ms. So the injectors are open a shorter period of time and less fuel is delivered.

Now what would be really cool is an entire aftermarket brain where you could control everything directly instead of patching something inline.

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post #21 of 38 Old 11-10-2006, 08:14 AM
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post #22 of 38 Old 11-10-2006, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooker_47 View Post
See, that's what turns me off about the whole thing. I don't have the time to mess with dyno's and all the rest of that stuff. If I could install it and know that the map would work and the bike would run a little smoother, I would drop the money. But knowing that I would have to mess around with the maps and I might not be able to get it running right the first time...I have too many other things to do...like riding!
Nothing wrong with the pre-loaded maps, especially if you can grab one from Dan Kyles hands. In fact that would most likely be better if you do move from the desert to the swamp to high or low elevation. No point in really dialing it in for the local air when you'll be on the road in a year.

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post #23 of 38 Old 11-11-2006, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
I wasn't worried about the installation, I just don't know if I want to deal with everything afterward. I guess what I am looking for is someone to say, "Hey, you can put this thing on, and your bike will run better with the stock map from Dan Kyle, and everything will be hunky-dory." If no one has that experience with it, then I don't have $300-$400 to spend on one.
If no one else will say it I will. If you call or E-Mail Dan Kyle,tell him what you want,what you have on the bike or plane to do with it(i.e. exhaust ect.) He will set you up.
A plug & play install. No fuss No muss.
My bike ran fine after I installed the PC3 w Kyles map & sato's.No you don't 'need' Satos but recommended.Most people would think the bike was perfect.Why dyno it? I just wanted to be sure,All motors vary a little.
Like I said I want all I can get out of my investment & my bike,& know it.
Re read my reply and you'll see what I mean.
You will, for sure, be happy with what you get right out of the box.
If you buy from Dan he will map it for free,& send it to you.
$269.00
If you find the time & wan't too.
A dyno tune should only cost about $150.-$200. not $300.& take about 3 hrs.if done properly.Read this for info on the subject so as to not get taken for. http://www.rc51.org/dynotuning.htm
It should be done by a qualified "tuner".Just because he went to a training class doesn't automaticly make him a "tuner".
So do your homework,ask around,& be carefull with the"I have a friend who's".

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post #24 of 38 Old 11-11-2006, 04:08 AM
 
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This is kind of, sort of off subject, but not really. I traded my '04 Sportster Roadster for a new '03 919 (I'm 5'7", 135 lbs, and the Sportster was just too top heavy, and too heavy in general to push around in the garage). After putting just 10 miles on the 919 I installed a PCIII, and a pair of Yoshi's. So, I didn't have enough real seat time on the Hornet to determine the net results of the upgrades. But I have to say that I'm not terribly impressed with the power of the 919. I don't know if it because I became used to the huge low end torqure of the Harley, or if I'm just too conservative and safety minded on a bike, and the 919 specifically to be impressed with power delivery.

Don't get me wrong, the 919 is probably the best overall bike I've ever owned, and the list of bikes I've owned range from Ducati to Yamaha, and most in between. But I just can't get enthused about the power of the 919.
Perhaps it's because it is so smooth. I do find that I'm up to 90 mph in a 55 (out in the boonies) in no time, so maybe it's just a giant mind game that I'm messing with.

I just don't believe in thrashing my machines, and perhaps many of you do, and that's where the rush of power is. It just seems to me that my '77 RD400has more jump to it than the 919.

I don't recall where I purchased the PCIII, but it was programmed for Enrion cans, and a stock intake. There seems to be no map available for Yoshi cans. I've done the flapper mod, too. That seemed to make the power band a tad more linear, but again, a mind game?

I've thought of dropping a tooth on the countershaft sprocket, but I'm already spinning lots of RPM at 80 mph, so I don't know if that's the way to go.

Anyhow, I guess I'm just not that impressed with the power, or lack thereof of the 919. Comments, questions, suggestions, etc. are welcomed.

Semper Fi, Mac.

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post #25 of 38 Old 11-11-2006, 06:00 AM
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Anyhow, I guess I'm just not that impressed with the power, or lack thereof of the 919. Comments, questions, suggestions, etc. are welcomed.

Semper Fi, Mac.

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Do you frequently hit full throttle? How much HP/torque did the sportster have?

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post #26 of 38 Old 11-11-2006, 06:36 AM
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Rick, the 919 has one of the smoothest powerbands you can get out of an in-line four on a bike. Most of the other bikes have a crazy, peaky top end and no low end whatsoever (FZ1, Z1000, any sportbike). I'm not sure what it is that would cause you to feel that the 919 doesn't have a linear response, but you'd be hard pressed to find a sportbike or naked that has a more linear response. My guess is that you're just used to the V-twin low end punch instead of the smooth delivery of the 919, but I could be wrong. The seat of the pants dyno is just too plain hard to argue with. It has been said by many, however, that the 919 feels weaker than it actually is due to the linear power delivery. It just doesn't deliver that top-end hit like many other in-line 4 bikes do. I do know that it is lighter, more powerful, has more torque, better handling, faster, quicker, but less comfortable than just about any sportster out there.

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post #27 of 38 Old 11-11-2006, 07:05 AM
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Hey everyone,

Just wanted to say that I appreciate you guys giving out lots of good, honest info. It is a huge help to someone like me that knows just enough to fix a bike, but not enough to make it better. Thank you!

-Joe

-Joe
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post #28 of 38 Old 11-11-2006, 07:15 AM
 
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Yeah, see, I believe that's it. I was used to the Harley's huge low end grunt, and the 919's power delivery is so linear and smooth, that it is deceiving. And, further, I like to keep my driver's license intact, so I'm not in to full throttle blasts, as the constables on patrol are rabid in Ohio.

I do miss the Sportster, even though other Harley bike owners are snobs to even Sportster riders, let alone metric bike riders. But, the 919 is a fine machine, and the fit and finish is superior. I looked at a Z1000 and a ZRX1200, and they looked cheap, and kind of, well, you guys know. I'd kind of like to get another Harley, but I dislike the general attitude of Harley owners, plus I've noticed after my 30 years of riding MCs that a large number of them don't have a clue about how to ride a bike. My wife and me were in Gatlinburg (Deal's Gap) in her Mini Cooper S last week, and the Harley dudes, well, it's obvious.....

Plus, around Ohio I've noticed that metric riders always seem to ride with the proper types and amount of safety gear, and the Harley group, well again, you guys know.....

As an aside, are there any PCIII maps out there for an '03 with Yoshimura cans?

Thanks,....great forum......

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post #29 of 38 Old 11-11-2006, 07:24 AM
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Ok not a thead jack , but I have 03 with satos seem to have excessive amount of carbon that comes out when starting , I mean you can put your hand back there and it will be dirty within a min or two , would PCIII help with this, is this normal . str8

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post #30 of 38 Old 11-11-2006, 03:04 PM
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any ideas? str8

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post #31 of 38 Old 11-11-2006, 03:18 PM
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I figured someone would have answered by now, but since no one has, here goes.

Most people that have Satos have also installed the PC3. If the fuel injection is not compensating for the increased air flow though the exhaust, it is possible that it is not burning off the fuel properly, hence the reason for the large amount of carbon. A PC3 with the correct map would probably clean up the exhaust.

-Joe
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post #32 of 38 Old 11-12-2006, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickmears View Post
the constables on patrol are rabid in Ohio
yeah, no kidding. I had two trips through Ohio this past summer and the cops were everywhere both times.

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post #33 of 38 Old 11-12-2006, 07:02 PM
 
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Quote:
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Ok not a thead jack , but I have 03 with satos seem to have excessive amount of carbon that comes out when starting , I mean you can put your hand back there and it will be dirty within a min or two , would PCIII help with this, is this normal . str8
I don't think what you are experiencing is carbon at all. Water condenses in the pipes and gets dirty, then when you start up the bike the pipes blow out dirty black water, at least this is what I have experienced with bafflectomized exhausts.

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post #34 of 38 Old 11-12-2006, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
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I just don't believe in thrashing my machines, and perhaps many of you do, and that's where the rush of power is. It just seems to me that my '77 RD400has more jump to it than the 919.

Anyhow, I guess I'm just not that impressed with the power, or lack thereof of the 919. Comments, questions, suggestions, etc. are welcomed.
Coming from a person who believes in thrashing his machine, you really need to break the 5000k rpm barrier to feel 919 power. Shift gears near the red line and report back.

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post #35 of 38 Old 11-12-2006, 08:47 PM
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two 919 dyno charts i've seen from exhaust mfrs showed peak power was right at 9k rpm. I don't beat the bikes every day of their lives but, well, okay yes I do.
"wind it out" Dad used to say "it'll keep the plugs clean"

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post #36 of 38 Old 11-13-2006, 06:01 AM
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I just went to the Motorcycle show in Houston yesterday and did some demo rides of some very different machines.

First I rode a Buell 1200. Fun bike but I kept blipping the throttle at idle because it felt like it was about to die.

Then I rode a Kawi Vulcan 2000 with no tach. Hated it. Bounced off the rev limiter a couple of time. Could not find the right shift points.

Then I rode a ZX-10R. I found myself shifting at 3K because I was using the speeds I was used to on my 919 as shift points.

The point is different bike styles require very different riding styles and shift points. I'm sure with some saddle time I could figure out how to enjoy the big Vulcan. And with some serious education I might be able to use 50% of the ZX-10R power.

Find an empty, safe stretch of road and wind it up to 9500 in the first three gears. If that does not put a smile on your face you probably would be happier with a different bike.

David

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post #37 of 38 Old 11-13-2006, 05:23 PM
 
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Yeah, I'll goose it for a bit when I get some more miles on it. It's a new '03 (jumbo shrimp, anyone?), and I only have 410 miles on it, so when I get some more seat time and get to know the bike a little better, I'll check out some full throttle application.

Dudes.....

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post #38 of 38 Old 11-13-2006, 07:16 PM
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Ride it hard from the get go. Thats right...I dare say, rev it like you stole it from day one....its a Honda...I believe short trips without proper warm up are worse than revving the snot outofit from the get go. Again, its a Honda....

Although....I am far from an expert on anything

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