fouled #2 & # 3 plugs re visted. - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 64 Old 08-28-2007, 05:32 PM Thread Starter
 
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fouled #2 & # 3 plugs re visted.

I switched coil wires and plug wires, like Mr Mike said to do.
2 nd 3 still fouling out. Gas return line not blocked.
Air filter is clean.

Put New Plugs in. Checked for loss wires. Still fouling out.
Twist the trottle and black smoke comes out.

I Think my mixture is too rich. But why would # 2 and # 3 be getting more fuel? I have no mods. Bike is stock. Anybody have any ideal how I can fix this?

Would a powercomander111 take care of a rich mixture problem. Iam at a loss here. I haven,t got clue what to do next. I have to clean my plugs off ever 2 days.

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post #2 of 64 Old 08-28-2007, 08:02 PM
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fuel regulator?

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post #3 of 64 Old 08-28-2007, 10:45 PM
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Is it running smoothly? With 2 plugs performing that poorly I would tend to expect it feel pretty rough. Has it set any codes on the PGM-FI MIL light?

Looking through the manual, the only procedure that catches my eye as being specific to #2&3 or #1&4 is the starter valve synchronization. Does your starter knob (for lack of a better term than choke, which i guess it is not) operate smoothly and properly? Could the linkage be messed up and allow extra fuel to 2 of the cylinders?

Just throwing a few things out there, this is a strange problem.

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post #4 of 64 Old 08-29-2007, 12:27 AM
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Correct plug wires going to plug??

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post #5 of 64 Old 08-29-2007, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iion View Post
Correct plug wires going to plug??
Aside from the plug wire reaching.. you could swap #1 & 4 or 2 & 3 and it doesn't matter. Sparks both plugs at same time even though they are on opposite strokes. If you had #1/4 mixed with 2/3 it would not run.. I am pretty sure.

Maybe swap the injectors from 2/3 to 1/4?

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post #6 of 64 Old 08-29-2007, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoCycho View Post
Aside from the plug wire reaching.. you could swap #1 & 4 or 2 & 3 and it doesn't matter. Sparks both plugs at same time even though they are on opposite strokes. If you had #1/4 mixed with 2/3 it would not run.. I am pretty sure.

Maybe swap the injectors from 2/3 to 1/4?
if you swap 1&2 or 3&4 it will run, and runs like he described.

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post #7 of 64 Old 08-29-2007, 07:07 AM
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Do injectors need to be sychronized like a carb setup? I have no idea that this is possible, thaught it may be a good place to pose the question.

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post #8 of 64 Old 08-29-2007, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisco919 View Post
Do injectors need to be sychronized like a carb setup? I have no idea that this is possible, thaught it may be a good place to pose the question.
Fuel injector pulses are controlled by the ecm, so nothing to synchronize. Where does the 2-3 coil get its signal, is there a cam sensor or what makes it fire? Could it be somehow that it's not firing correctly and leading to fouled plugs?

Or, could it be oil fouling the plugs, internal seepage from the head gasket?

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post #9 of 64 Old 08-29-2007, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal919 View Post
Is it running smoothly? With 2 plugs performing that poorly I would tend to expect it feel pretty rough. Has it set any codes on the PGM-FI MIL light?

Looking through the manual, the only procedure that catches my eye as being specific to #2&3 or #1&4 is the starter valve synchronization. Does your starter knob (for lack of a better term than choke, which i guess it is not) operate smoothly and properly? Could the linkage be messed up and allow extra fuel to 2 of the cylinders?

Just throwing a few things out there, this is a strange problem.
Yes it is running a little ruff. And no there are no blinks on the PGM-FI MIL light.

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post #10 of 64 Old 08-29-2007, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoCycho View Post
Aside from the plug wire reaching.. you could swap #1 & 4 or 2 & 3 and it doesn't matter. Sparks both plugs at same time even though they are on opposite strokes. If you had #1/4 mixed with 2/3 it would not run.. I am pretty sure.

Maybe swap the injectors from 2/3 to 1/4?
Thanks Rev. I will try swapping the injectors and see if that makes a differance.

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post #11 of 64 Old 08-31-2007, 10:51 AM
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the only thing that links cylinders 2 & 3 is ignition. it's a spark thing. i hope you didn't swap injectors.

please recount the timeline up to this problem occurring in as much detail as you can. please reconstruct the events leading up to the crime, if you will.

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post #12 of 64 Old 08-31-2007, 12:58 PM
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Mr Mike wrote:
It is more likely related to the coils. Could be a poor connection(s) check the obvious first, then move on to the coils. One coil assembly fires cylinders 1 & 4 while the other fires 2 & 3. One troubleshooting tip is to swap the coils. On the primary side the yellow/blue stripe wire fires 1 & 4 while blue/yellow stripe wire fires 2 &3, the black/white stripe wires are common to both coils. Swap the primary wires. Also at the same time swap the secondary plug wires ( #1 plug wire swap with #2 plug wire and #4 plug wire swap with #3 plug wire). Start out with 4 clean plugs, ride the bike and see what happens. If it is coil related the fouled plugs will now be on cylinders #1 and #4 while #2 and #3 will be clean.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you did swap the coils as Mr Mike recommended and the problem stayed on cylinders 2&3, then the only conclusions possible are either the power feed to the 2&3 coil assembly has some resistance, causing insufficient magnetic saturation of the primary winding; or the ignitor signal from the ECU is weak, possibly from an external short to a parallel resistance somewhere, or a transistor in the ECU has gone marginal which will require replacement. As I have never heard of a defective ECU, the power feed is the more likely culprit. From this point, you will need a wiring diagram, fairly good digital volt ohm meter, and sufficient knowledge to be able to check voltage, current, and resistance and understand what the readings mean.
When I get home I'll check my service manual and post some more specific troubleshooting recommendations. In the meantime, you might try connecting the black/white wire to the 2&3 coil directly to the battery to see if this cures the problem. If you are going to do this, connect to the coil first and tape it up, run the wire to the under seat area and make sure everything is ready to run. Pull the taillight fuse and connect to the powered side of it, turn on the key and start it up. If this cures the problem, you have to dig into the wiring harness to find the splice that branches the single wire from the ECU relay into two for the coils -- it is possible this is where the problem lies. It will probably be within 10 CM of the rearmost coil, but I'm not sure.
More later.

Rob

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post #13 of 64 Old 08-31-2007, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iion View Post
Correct plug wires going to plug??
I had these switched around once and the bike would fire up but ran like poo poo

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post #14 of 64 Old 08-31-2007, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
Mr Mike wrote:
It is more likely related to the coils. Could be a poor connection(s) check the obvious first, then move on to the coils. One coil assembly fires cylinders 1 & 4 while the other fires 2 & 3. One troubleshooting tip is to swap the coils. On the primary side the yellow/blue stripe wire fires 1 & 4 while blue/yellow stripe wire fires 2 &3, the black/white stripe wires are common to both coils. Swap the primary wires. Also at the same time swap the secondary plug wires ( #1 plug wire swap with #2 plug wire and #4 plug wire swap with #3 plug wire). Start out with 4 clean plugs, ride the bike and see what happens. If it is coil related the fouled plugs will now be on cylinders #1 and #4 while #2 and #3 will be clean.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you did swap the coils as Mr Mike recommended and the problem stayed on cylinders 2&3, then the only conclusions possible are either the power feed to the 2&3 coil assembly has some resistance, causing insufficient magnetic saturation of the primary winding; or the ignitor signal from the ECU is weak, possibly from an external short to a parallel resistance somewhere, or a transistor in the ECU has gone marginal which will require replacement. As I have never heard of a defective ECU, the power feed is the more likely culprit. From this point, you will need a wiring diagram, fairly good digital volt ohm meter, and sufficient knowledge to be able to check voltage, current, and resistance and understand what the readings mean.
When I get home I'll check my service manual and post some more specific troubleshooting recommendations. In the meantime, you might try connecting the black/white wire to the 2&3 coil directly to the battery to see if this cures the problem. If you are going to do this, connect to the coil first and tape it up, run the wire to the under seat area and make sure everything is ready to run. Pull the taillight fuse and connect to the powered side of it, turn on the key and start it up. If this cures the problem, you have to dig into the wiring harness to find the splice that branches the single wire from the ECU relay into two for the coils -- it is possible this is where the problem lies. It will probably be within 10 CM of the rearmost coil, but I'm not sure.
More later.

Rob
I have to work saturday, but saturday night I will try it and see what happens. Thanks alot for your insight and knowledge.

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post #15 of 64 Old 09-01-2007, 03:02 AM
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FI system overview

Foowee123:
What follows is a general overview of the ins and outs (literally) of the FI system, and specifics on the ignition system. If you don't have a service manual, look in Helpful Topics for new 919 owners sticky at the top of the naked bikes section. Three up from the bottom of the Helpful How-To's section is a link to a wiring diagram which is actually easier to use than the one in the service manual when zoomed in: just place the cursor on the wire you want to trace and use the arrow keys to move the diagram around under it. Open a second window for the wiring diagram to follow along.
1 -- Power. The main power feed to the entire FI system begins at the starter relay, where the Red/Yellow wire connects directly to the battery connection at the relay. You can see this by removing the seat and looking at the right front corner: the connection is a single White connector with heavy gauge Red/Yellow wires in and out just behind the relay. From there it goes to the 20A PGM / fuel pump fuse in the fuse box. The fused Red/White wire then goes to the engine stop relay, which is powered by the kill switch and grounded by the bank angle sensor. From there all power wires to the FI system are Black/White.
2 -- Timing and synchronization. There are two sensors involved in this function: the crank angle sensor and the cam (miscalled TDC) sensor. The crank angle sensor is mounted on the clutch side of the engine and is comprised of a 12 pole wheel and a single magnetic pickup (to those in the know, it's a reluctor type) which sends a signal to the ECU. This provides a crankshaft position signal every 30 degrees which the ECU counts internal clock pulses between each crank sensor pulse to determine not only crank position within 1 degree, but also positive and negative acceleration rates, useful for ignition advance map addressing and injector open duration. Synchronization to TDC is provided by the cam sensor, located on the left side of the intake cam, which is a single reluctor pickup reading a 3 pole wheel: arbitrarily 1 pulse for cylinder 1 and two pulses for cylinders 4. A common misconception is that the cam sensor indicates TDC precisely: this is not the case. One of the crank wheel poles corresponds to TDC, and which one is registered by the ECU by watching the cam sensor signal, then using it to start looking for the proper crank pulse, usually 2 pulses after the advent of the cam pulse. This prevents shifting of the determined TDC position due to cam chain stretch and head gasket thickness variation, either of which changes the effective length of the tensioned side of the cam chain, and therefore the timing of the cam sensor signal. Once #1 TDC pole is determined it is used by the ECU to determine which ignition coil to trigger and when as well as which injectors to open and when. Cylinders 2&3 TDC is determined by the ECU by assigning the 6th pole of the crank wheel after the #1&4 pole. In this way, TDC for each cylinder is determined. None of these sensors is exclusive to cylinders 2&3, so cannot be the cause of your problem.
3 -- Injection. The injectors are individually triggered by the ECU corresponding to the intake strokes, but all are powered by the same Black/White power feed. Injectors 1&2 share a power line, #3 goes through the same connector but has its own power wire, and paradoxically #4 is hard wired directly to the ECU connector, so nothing is common to #2&3 except the same connector.
4 -- Ignition. The ignition timing is controlled by the ECU by addressing a map similar in nature to the injection map. Power is constantly applied to the coils through the Black/White wires. A very short time after a coil is triggered, a ground is applied to it by the ECU to reestablish a saturated magnetic field in the primary winding, which is maintained until the next trigger signal at which time the ground is removed, causing the magnetic field to collapse and inducing a short duration high voltage pulse from the secondary winding which jumps to the ground electrode of one plug to the cylinder head then to the other plug, which jumps to the center electrode and returns to the secondary winding, completing the circuit. If the voltage supplied to the coil is of insufficient current, the ground signal from the ECU is either shunted partially to ground by a short to a parallel load, absorbed by a corroded connection, or affected by a malfunctioning transistor in the ECU, then the magnetic field produced by the primary winding will not be of sufficient strength to induce a high enough current from the secondary winding to make strong enough spark to consistently ignite the air/fuel mixture in the cylinders, especially under heavier loads. In general, the higher the pressure in a cylinder the greater the spark intensity required to make a spark jump across the plug gap, which explains why removing one plug to check for spark is only useful to see if there is any spark at all, not to determine if it strong enough to light the fires under load.
Troubleshooting a weak ignition can be difficult without sophisticated equipment due to the very rapid nature of the signal to the coils, but some information can be gathered with a comparatively simple digital VOM with a 10 amp scale, a jumper wire, some dielectric grease (available at electronic parts stores), and some creativity. The first task is to visually check every connector associated with the ignition system one at a time by disconnecting them and inspecting for loose, bent, pushed back, or corroded pins. If they all look good, gently blow out any contamination, apply a generous amount of dielectric grease, and reconnect them making sure they are firmly seated and locked together. Remember to mark each connector as checked before moving on to the next one. Remember to check the ECU, battery, and grounds as well. Once this is done, move on to voltage checks. Before doing any voltage checks, pull the headlight and taillight fuses to minimize electrical load on the battery. First, check the voltage to the coils with the key on and the engine not running: it should show roughly battery voltage at both coils, and close to the same at both. Now start the engine and check voltage at the Yellow/Blue and Blue/Yellow wires. If there is a substantial difference, jump battery voltage directly to the Black/White wire of the coil with the lower reading. If the voltage rises to match the other coil, the power wire probably has some resistance in it, possibly in a splice inside the harness, and you will have to find out where this is happening and effect a cure. If the voltage does not come up, there may be resistance in the trigger wire between the coil and the ECU. In this case, jump from the coil to the ECU to see if the voltage matches the other. If so, fix the poor connection and you're golden. If not, there may be a problem with the ECU, and you may have to take it to a dealer for further work.
In any case, it is possible to fix most problems yourself if you are willing to be methodical.
Good luck, and post the results of your tests if you need more assistance.

Rob

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post #16 of 64 Old 09-01-2007, 04:15 AM
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Remember the days of the SOHC(Single Over Head Cam) Honda motor, simplicity at its finest. Dual points which ran off of the crank to trigger the coils. High tech. was to replace the points with a electronic module using a magnetic pick-up. Set it and forget it. "Trouble shooting was a breeze!"

Nice write-up Rob. This information definitely belongs in our Helpful Topics thread.

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post #17 of 64 Old 12-01-2007, 11:28 PM
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And the problem was?????????

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post #18 of 64 Old 12-06-2007, 12:14 PM
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a source of personal embarassment,
so {crickets}

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post #19 of 64 Old 12-06-2007, 07:13 PM
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If needed I can use my oscilloscope for the ignition and fuel controls and post
them up. Don't know how useful it would be if you don't have one. Just another option depending on how technical we need to get on this problem.
Let me know.

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post #20 of 64 Old 12-06-2007, 08:25 PM
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a source of personal embarassment,
so {crickets}
He he..

I didn't really think it was injector issues. We all know it's ignition. .. well most likely!

I just like to

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post #21 of 64 Old 12-07-2007, 05:00 PM
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a source of personal embarassment,
so {crickets}


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post #22 of 64 Old 04-14-2008, 10:20 PM
 
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Well crap. I'm having this exact same problem myself now :-/

Doesn't look like foowee has posted any resolution to this either. I just got the bike a couple weeks ago and i THINK it was running fine when i got it, although it has always stunk like fuel and when you really get on it, it belches a good deal of black smoke/soot (from what i've read this doesn't seem too far off from normal)... Same deal though as foowee was explaining--plugs 1 and 4 look normal, plugs 2 and 3 however are black and literally wet with fuel (not oil). I started noticing poor performance on friday when it started to feel like it was missing, then it kinda felt better and now today it feels like total crap. runs like poo, sputters and hesitates. idles fine though.

Here's some possibilities from what i've touched since acquiring it:

-using a smaller battery from my scooter since the one it came with when i got it was dead. starts up no problem.
-throttle response seemed a little laggy at first, so a friend recommended pulling the choke knob out a little. did that, had it out a tiny bit for about a week. since then it doesn't even look like it's open anymore.
-turned up the idle speed a little to just over 1k rpm.
-air filter is clean.
-I'm new to bikes, so i'm mostly doing slower riding. haven't been on the freeway yet, just around town stuff with some "spirited" acceleration up to about 70-80 on a few occasions. haven't "blown out the carbon deposits" if that is such a thing...

For now i'll check all the connections and make sure the grounds are good. any other thoughts of course are appreciated I'm fairly well experienced with a voltmeter and automotive electronics systems so if there are quick checks I can do first...

thanks!

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post #23 of 64 Old 04-15-2008, 11:40 AM
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what's your bike got on it? PCIII?

did you do ANY work on the bike IMMEDIATELY before the problem started?
i mean, even if you replaced the headlight...ANY work?

no, there's no such thing as blowing out the carbon deposits unless you've got a coal-fired steam engine in yours, or a diamond mine in the combustion chamber.

no, it's not normal for your ride to "belch a good deal of black smoke/soot" unless you're James West or Artemus Gordon.

are you???

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post #24 of 64 Old 04-15-2008, 12:21 PM
 
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No no, I'm definitely not James West or Artemus Gordon. I don't even know an Artemus!

stock computer... has a speed healer on it. Things i've done since i had are:

(Aforementioned)
-using a smaller battery from my scooter since the one it came with when i got it was dead. starts up no problem.
-throttle response seemed a little laggy at first, so a friend recommended pulling the choke knob out a little. did that, had it out a tiny bit for about a week. since then it doesn't even look like it's open anymore.
-turned up the idle speed a little to just over 1k rpm.

(other)
-lubed the chain
-put air in the tires
-adjusted the clutch cable
-put on a new left side peg
-put 3 tanks of gas in it of various octanes from 87 to 91

Unfortunately, i'm not positive the bike was not doing this even before i got it--it's just at a point now where I KNOW something is amiss (pun intended). Prior to me getting it, it has sat in a garage unridden for 2 years after being laid down on the freeway at speed. that little sensor (throttle position?) right above the choke looks like it sustained some damage in the wreck to the plastic bits around it, but all the connections appear to be still there. (pic attached) Also attached is the scooter battery i've been using till my new one arrives...
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File Type: jpg JEF_3254.jpg (87.1 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg JEF_3265.jpg (99.6 KB, 20 views)

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post #25 of 64 Old 04-15-2008, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
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No no, I'm definitely not James West or Artemus Gordon. I don't even know an Artemus!
You missed the classic Wild Wild West reference... and not the crappy Will Smith remake!

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post #26 of 64 Old 04-15-2008, 01:35 PM
 
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nah, i knew he was probably referring to some old character in some classic movie before my time. Rather than google the names and quip back as if i got the reference all along, I chose to go sarcastic. I just forgot to insert the wink!

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post #27 of 64 Old 04-15-2008, 10:20 PM
 
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just swapped the coils, so now the coil for 1&4 is on 2&3 and vice versa. I pulled the #1 and #2 plugs and #1 is fine (as it was before) while 2 is all wet with fuel again. so it's not the coil... cleaned all the grounds too.

Guy at the bike shop suggested it might be the pulse generator (cam or ignition i'm not sure). any ideas how to test the system further without a "peak voltage tester"? or known good parts?

I pulled a plug and tested it with both the #1 and #2 wire and while the #2 wire did generate a spark, it was a much weaker "looking" spark comparatively speaking to the #1 wire while cranking the engine. Pics attached (first pic is the #2 wire, 2nd pic is the #1 wire)
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File Type: jpg JEF_3279.jpg (95.3 KB, 47 views)

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post #28 of 64 Old 04-16-2008, 05:43 AM
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I would check fuel regulator if its running ok or a little rich the black smoke you stated in earlier post

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post #29 of 64 Old 04-16-2008, 07:10 AM
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Your original post states
Quote:
plugs 1 and 4 look normal, plugs 2 and 3 however are black and literally wet with fuel (not oil).
You swapped the coils now #2 is all wet with fuel. Seems to me the problem was in fact transfered. You did not indicate the condition of the #2 & #3 plugs after the coil swap.
Note: All the plugs should be sand blasted prior to troubleshooting.

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post #30 of 64 Old 04-16-2008, 08:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riquefied919 View Post
I would check fuel regulator if its running ok or a little rich the black smoke you stated in earlier post
Could a bad regulator only manifest itself in the 2 cylinders like that? How do i check it (i'll do a search in the meantime)? It's running on 2 cylinders now :-/

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Your original post states

You swapped the coils now #2 is all wet with fuel. Seems to me the problem was in fact transfered. You did not indicate the condition of the #2 & #3 plugs after the coil swap.
Note: All the plugs should be sand blasted prior to troubleshooting.
sorry i knew when i was typing all that originally it looked kinda confusing... #2 was wet with fuel both before and after the coil swap. #1 was dry and normal looking both before and after the swap. In other words, the problem was not transferred (unless you mean transferred to the other coil).

I wire brushed the plugs and sprayed them down with brake cleaner prior to the test. that little spark test was done on the same spark plug in both pictures.

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post #31 of 64 Old 04-16-2008, 12:32 PM
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you swapped the coils, but did you swap the wiring? if someone else did, then the coils would not be firing at the correct time. you have to make sure that the wiring to the coils and/or the plug wires are going to the correct plugs.

no, a regulator would cause a problem across all 4 injectors.

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post #32 of 64 Old 04-16-2008, 12:34 PM
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and no, i'm not exactly in love with that TP sensor.

change it, regardless.

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post #33 of 64 Old 04-16-2008, 07:22 PM
 
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you swapped the coils, but did you swap the wiring? if someone else did, then the coils would not be firing at the correct time. you have to make sure that the wiring to the coils and/or the plug wires are going to the correct plugs.

no, a regulator would cause a problem across all 4 injectors.
I swapped the coils out (put them in each other's brackets) and plugged them into the new correct corresponding cylinders. So the coil that WAS firing the #2 & #3 cylinders (and obviously not burning the fuel) is now properly firing the #1 & #4 cylinders--so it's not the coil. I talked to Greg the previous owner, and he said he hadn't done anything to the bike and that it never exhibited any of these symptoms the last time he ran it 2 years ago.

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and no, i'm not exactly in love with that TP sensor.

change it, regardless.
is it me, or do the fiche on mrcycles and the headless studs on that sensor suggest replacing it requires purchase of the entire throttle body?

I got it pushed back up in there pretty good now (can't see the exposed contacts now). i have not done a continuity test yet though...

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post #34 of 64 Old 04-16-2008, 07:31 PM
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my #2 cyl runs way rich......bike hauls ass so I have not worried too much about it....

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post #35 of 64 Old 04-16-2008, 08:33 PM
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My cbr 900 I just sold after sitting all winter kept fouling #2 and #3 also ended up being the regulator/rectifier it was putting out just enough juice that the battery was not going dead but not enough to make #2 and #3 fire properly put a new one on and the new owner has already put about 800 miles on it no problems

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post #36 of 64 Old 04-17-2008, 09:18 AM
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i've been eyeing your scooter battery too, and wondering if somehow it could be enough juice to crank it over and fire it up, but somehow affecting voltage to the ecm.

please search this forum for this topic: i know you're not the first and that i've read good diagnostic steps here.

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post #37 of 64 Old 04-17-2008, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
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...
is it me, or do the fiche on mrcycles and the headless studs on that sensor suggest replacing it requires purchase of the entire throttle body?

I have read that this is the case on a post here before. What a joke huh?

- Rev. CYCHO -

tires.... it's what's for dinner!
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post #38 of 64 Old 04-27-2008, 11:00 PM
 
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OY! So I got my new battery on Friday and installed it hoping for that to be the simple cure to my problem. But it wasn't

In the meantime I checked the voltage across the blue/yellow and yellow/blue coil wires with the key on and again with the engine running and they both showed voltages very close to battery voltage (per Rob's prescription in post #15 of this thread).

Kinda lost on where to turn next I did the self diagnosis test and got 8 blinks (TP Sensor). This was that messed up connector i posted a pic of earlier that i kinda fixed (looked like just the plastic was effected--not the connection itself). hmmm. So I followed the problem diagnosis steps in the service manual (pages 5-18 & 5-19) and got the correct voltage between the HARNESS side connector yellow/red wire and ground (~5V), but did NOT get any voltage across the red/yellow wire and green/orange wire... which indicates that there is either a short in the green/orange wire, or a bad ECM connection. Bare in mind this is on the HARNESS side of the connector, not the broken part that I pictured earlier. So I traced that all the back to the ECM and got continuity from the ECM connector all the way to the TP Sensor connector and did not get any continuity with ground. I also measured .5 ohms of resistance from end to ECM to TP connector.

Now I'm kinda stuck again. I don't see any chaffed wires anywhere. Could this TP sensor prob cause my #2 & #3 fouling, or just something else coincidently wrong?

That green/orange wire i'm not seeing any voltage across also looks like it is a common wire for a few other sensors too (e.g. air temp, map sensor, ect sensor). only seeing one code though...

Is it time for professional help?

thanks for all the tips guys!
-jeff

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post #39 of 64 Old 04-29-2008, 09:35 AM
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one thing that sticks in my considerable craw is that your problem is on cylinders that are fired by a common coil.

and by what you wrote, i can't be sure that you've checked the following:

are you certain that the primary wires (small gauge) that spade-connect to the coils are installed properly? all it would take is replacing the spark plugs to get them crossed up.

you need to be certain that the primary wires for 1&4 are leading to coils that are connected to plugs 1&4, and that the primary wires for 2&3 are connected to the coils that are connected to spark plugs 2&3.

remember that the coils are identical, and it doesn't matter (assuming they are functionally good) which coil's connected to which spark plugs, it only matters which primary wires are connected to the coil firing a given set of plugs.

clear as mud?

of course, it COULD be any number of other things. but this is where i'd exhaust possibilities before taking it to a qualified mechanic.

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post #40 of 64 Old 04-29-2008, 12:30 PM
 
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are you certain that the primary wires (small gauge) that spade-connect to the coils are installed properly? all it would take is replacing the spark plugs to get them crossed up.
Yes, i am 100% correct. To be sure, I even crossed them up and the bike would not start at all.

Since the last post i've:

-done my own unqualified test on the regulator/rectifier to see if that was the problem--I unplugged it entirely--and that did not change the way the bike behaved.

-looked more closely at that TP Sensor wire that has no voltage where there is supposed to be ~5v (Red/Yellow wire) when tested across the Green/Orange wire which i've tested to be a common ground for most of the sensors, and can be seen in the wiring diagram. That Red/Yellow wire goes straight to the ECM, so i'm kinda out of places to turn there.

-took my bike to a local Honda dealer and told the service tech everything I've checked, symptoms, etc. and rather than offer me any other suggestions, he offered me a job Said he would have done everything I did and in that order and that there probably isn't much more they can do without replacing parts. My real question for them was if they had any equipment to test the ECM or one of those peak voltage adapter things--to which he replied "no".

-Unplugged the cam position sensor and did a test i saw on some other honda motorcycle board, which was test the sensor side voltage across the 2 terminals as you cranked the bike. For that bike you were supposed to see at LEAST .7V across those wires. I saw .05V. Not sure if that's relevant since it's a different bike. No procedure for checking our own in the 919 manual...

-This morning I rode the bike around to get a better idea of when exactly the bike is misfiring, cuz i want to believe it has something to do with the TP Sensor voltage problem. It seems that the misfiring is most pronounced when the throttle is partially cracked. Either it's fine when the throttle is cracked almost wide open, or it's too noisy to hear, but it seems to pull fine when i open it up in the higher gears. which would kinda lead me to suspect the spark was fine right? if it was a spark strength issue, wouldn't that be worse on like a 6th gear hard roll on from ~45mph? In this case it seems to be alright.

I'm going to run up to a local independent bike shop with a good reputation and see what they think...

thanks for continuing to help Bucky! I'm pretty sure it's not my hamfisted handywork causing the problem

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