FI Issues (still) and Dealer Service - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 12 Old 06-09-2007, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
 
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FI Issues (still) and Dealer Service

The dealer I purchased my bike from won't touch it now because it's not stock. The reason is because I removed the PAIR system, the evaporative canister and associated purge valve, the flapper valve hose (I capped the vacuum port at the solenoid), and I soldered into the TPS wire and the switched ignition lead for a PCIII (since removed).

I'm a wee bit upset since they admit the TPS is in range and none of the other changes have to do with the FI system that is giving me trouble.

The service manager insinuated that the experience of all you forum members with various issues does not mean squat. According him they "never" have had problems with "any" fuel injection components failing. That may truly be the case but I have my doubts. So before you flame me with an "I could've told you so" keep that in mind.

I'm going to try to work this out with the distributor but in the mean time I guess I'm on my own.

I was informed the plugs were fouled to the point that the bike would not start. I wish I had pulled them before I had it hauled in for service, but hindsight is 20/20 and honestly that's one of the last things I would expect.

Any constructive help on why it would be running so rich is appreciated.

My : If you buy a perfect brand new 9'er be prepared to deal with the afterfiring, the buzzy bars, the optimistic speedometer, no centerstand if you've got a CA model, no sliders, no rearsets, no windscreen other than the Honda part, the factory mufflers, the gigantic turn signals, and any other annoyances for the warranty period or risk ending up like me.

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post #2 of 12 Old 06-09-2007, 04:16 PM
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So, the alternative is to pay for service instead of having it fall under warranty?

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post #3 of 12 Old 06-09-2007, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
 
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So, the alternative is to pay for service instead of having it fall under warranty?
They're charging me $78 to clean the plugs.

Paying for service is not an option. They won't work on it because they "wouldn't know where to start" (that's verbatim).

I wouldn't trust them anyway at this point. I figure at best they'd just throw parts at it and rack up a nice big bill for me.

Honestly, aside from the PCIII hookups, which seem to have baffled them, the only difference in the FI system wiring is the that the PAIR solenoid valve has been removed and I taped up the plug and tucked it neatly away. They made it sound like I cut the wires at the ECM turned it into an incomprehensible mess which is simply not true. That completely undermines my faith in their service department.

As a wrench and tech I've been there. You should have seen some of the cluster-$%^*'s I've had to undo. But my point is that this was not the case.

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post #4 of 12 Old 06-09-2007, 04:54 PM
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Man, this sucks sylas. Now I know why you picked that avatar!

Remove the PCIII, maybe even re-install the PAIR solenoid, then take it to another Honda dealer. Does it even have to be a Honda dealer for Warranty work? I know for cages, it's not.

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post #5 of 12 Old 06-09-2007, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
 
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Man, this sucks sylas. Now I know why you picked that avatar!

Remove the PCIII, maybe even re-install the PAIR solenoid, then take it to another Honda dealer. Does it even have to be a Honda dealer for Warranty work? I know for cages, it's not.
I've used that guy on forums for years. It comes from back when I was self-employed developing software and working 18 hours a day. Maybe i't bad ju-ju. I think I'll change to something more positive.

The PCIII has been off for sometime. I didn't have time to de-solder the tap on the TPS signal wire and ignition lead before the bike was picked up.

The more I think about it I can't believe what ass-clowns the service guys made themselves out to be. When I get the bike back I'd be happy to post a pic of the bike with the seat and tail off. This is what you would see that is visibly different from OEM: 1. PnP electronic turn signal relay. 2. a small piece of heat shrink on the TPS wire where I remove the first pick up point for the PCIII that was on the bike. 3. the license plate light and turn signal wires are shorter than stock. I even used the OEM plugs and wire loom for these pieces. That's all that is different. Compared to a bike fresh out of the crate that is the only visual difference.

In my conversation with the service manager I mentioned the weak alternator on the bike. He went on to tell me it's extremely powerful due to the high demands of the ignition and fuel system. Time for a math lesson:

55W Headlight-Low beam
5W x 2 Tail lights = 10W
8W x 2 Front running lights = 16W
5W License plate light
1.7W x 3 Instrument lights = 5.1W

91.1W total draw at all times

60W Headlight-High beam
5W x 2 Tail lights = 10W
21W x 2 Brake lights = 42W
23W Front turn signal
8W x 2 Front running light = 16W
21W Rear turn signal
1.7W x 3 Instrument lights = 5.1W
1.7W Turn signal indicator

178.8W possible intermittent load (sitting in a turn lane with blinkers on, holding the brake and with the high beam on)

The "powerful" alternator is rated at 380W at 5000 RPM. If the output is linear, and I don't know, just assuming it is, that's 76W per 1000 RPM. So sitting at that light you'd better keep it at 2400 RPM to keep from pulling current from the battery. The same scenario at peak output leaves slightly less than 200W (around 15 amps) for the engine. If you're running duals with H4 bulbs then double the headlight draw.

I've got LED turn signals, license plate light, tail/brake lights and I use the dual 5W euro city lights as running lights. If I were a gambling man (maybe I am considering what I have wrought) then I'd wager that my bike has a lower current draw then stock.

My longwinded point being that the guy wanted to argue and in my mind made himself look the fool.

Again, if I were a gambler, I'd bet that if some 65 year old guy (intending no offense to those among you that are) with a GL1800 all decked out with marker lights like a frickin' semi was having the same type of problem they wouldn't give him crap about it. Especially if they sold him the accessories and their hacks installed it.

I'll set up an appointment with another dealer, hopefully ride the bike there, speak to the service manager in person and go from there.

When I was a kid the owner of the largest Honda dealer in town personally delivered my first Z-50 and didn't leave until I was comfortable riding it. That was 37 years and seventeen bikes ago. This bike was delivered by a nice enough guy, but he didn't speak very good english and all I got was one key and a tool kit consisting of a single 5mm allen wrench in bubble wrap. I guess times change.

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post #6 of 12 Old 06-09-2007, 11:28 PM
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post #7 of 12 Old 06-11-2007, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
 
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I went to pick up my bike from the ass-clowns this afternoon.

They charged me $79.07 in labor to clean the spark plugs. I had a $72 credit so I just used it and chipped in the rest to get my bike the hell out of there.

Here is there explanation for the charge:
"BIKE HAS AFTER MARKET PARTS AND HAS DISABLED FRESH AIR INTAKE ADN VACUUM LINES REMOVED AND PLUGGED. NON WARRANTY."

I think "ADN" was supposed to be "AND".

So, 'twas the flapper valve mod that did me in an left the monkeys befuddled.

Kind of ironic since before I took the bike as I was going over it I notice that the inconspicuous rubber cap I had put on the flapper control solenoid was crazing and I stuck on this nice bright yellow vinyl cap.

They did not notice the absence of the PAIR system or the evaporative canister and associated lines and apparently the "non factory wiring" was not where I tapped into the TPS sensor and ignition but rather the plug I put on the bike to charge the battery without having to remove it.

I'll put the frickin' vacuum line back on if I have to take it in again, to another dealer of course, and see what happens.

What really made my day was a block down the road I notice my CRG Blindsight mirror is loose and out of adjustment. I pull out my allen wrench to tighten it and I notice the bracket is bent pretty badly. So I go back and one of the counter monkeys comes out, looks at it and says "well, I think we can bend it back". So I say "No, I think you will get me a new one and make it whole". He tries to pass the asshole (me) off to the service manager but instead the manager dodges me and the guy comes back out and says they will order me a new one.

This has been the worst experience I have ever had with Honda equipment, a motor vehicle dealer, and a service department.

When you're in Thornton, Colorado drop in to Sun Honda and say for me.

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post #8 of 12 Old 06-11-2007, 05:21 PM
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It seems that this particular dealer was looking for any excuse they could find to get out of having to do anything.

Find another dealer and don't mention that you went to these people.

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post #9 of 12 Old 06-11-2007, 05:42 PM
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Also, be sure to file a complaint with the Colorado Better Business Bureau and write a letter of protest to Honda Motor Corporation. There is also a website called Ripoff Report, you should write something and post it there. At minimum it will makes things unpleasant for them and warn others of their practices.

http://www.denverbbb.org
http://www.ripoffreport.com
http://powersports.honda.com

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post #10 of 12 Old 06-11-2007, 07:11 PM Thread Starter
 
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Also, be sure to file a complaint with the Colorado Better Business Bureau and write a letter of protest to Honda Motor Corporation. There is also a website called Ripoff Report, you should write something and post it there. At minimum it will makes things unpleasant for them and warn others of their practices.

http://www.denverbbb.org
http://www.ripoffreport.com
http://powersports.honda.com
Thanks for the support. I'm ready to be flamed about this or that, causing the problem by installing the PCIII and such, whatever.

People who always have to "one-up" others drive me nuts, but the truth is I have been on the other side of that counter and in the shop. I was an A&P (aircraft) mechanic, an industrial engine mechanic, and a 12V tech. Last spring I took a strange foray into over the road trucking and got my Class A CDL so I've got a pretty good grasp on some of the systems on OTR tractors I was not familiar with. Any of you guys that do it professionally have my respect. I only lasted forty days. Now I sit on my ass, write code, and create pretty pictures. But I didn't forget everything I learned in the field.

From day one I had a bad gut feeling about this dealer and I didn't go with it. I saw the only shiny new 919 in town at the best price and went with it. My bad. Should have listened to my gut (it's hard to miss ) and waited. I probably should have left it stock too, but the darn thing begs for modification.

Oh well, it's good to have the bike in my possession again and I rode the crap out of it on the way back to work with no problems. If the problems return I'll stick that vacuum line back on and head to the dealer that's only a couple miles from my house.

Anyone remember when M/C dealers didn't have professional merchandisers and fancy displays, neon lights, and stuff? We used to deal with the owner or his son at the Honda place. The Harley dealer in my area had a showroom about the size of a 7/11. Now they take up a block and a half.

My next bike is going to be a Hodaka Road Toad. With Rizoma signals, dual headlights, and a fender eliminator or course.

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post #11 of 12 Old 06-12-2007, 02:46 AM
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I've done everything to my bike that you have to yours. It runs fine. What they are telling you is pretty friggin lame.

I'll bet you're smart enough to figure it out yourself.

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post #12 of 12 Old 06-12-2007, 05:08 PM
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Sorry to hear about the troubles Sylas... I lived in Denver for 3 years... have to say that I rarely if ever found decent service in that town. I don't know what it is... maybe that thin air up there... but bottom line is that I learned to do it myself or keep my expectations at a minimum. Hopefully you can find a good solution without further frustrations!


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Too often we lose sight of life's simple pleasures.
Remember when someone annoys you, that it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown ...
But it only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm and bitch-slap that mother- upside the head...

Pass it on.
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