Fake neutral? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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Fake neutral?

Went on a long ride today and found that there is sometimes a fake neutral between 5th and 6th(LOL). And before you say it, Its not a learning curve, I had 2 of my other friends say the same thing happens on there bikes too from time to time(GSX-R's). Its kinda of wierd to describe, as you slip the bike into 6th gear and let out the clutch it will sometimes rev like your in neutral, as the revs come down to about 2500rpm its all of the sudden in 6th gear like nothing happened . Oh yea, this never happens if you switch gears without the clutch, and as a matter of fact my 919 seems to prefer that you don't even use the clutch while shifting up through the gears.

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post #2 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 05:58 PM
 
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And before you say it, Its not a learning curve, I had 2 of my other friends say the same thing happens on there bikes too from time to time(GSX-R's).
I'm trying to follow your logic here, but it isn't possible. (You've made a non sequitur.) Whether or not your friends need to learn how to shift has no relationship on whether or not you need to learn how to shift.

It sounds like the distance between 5th and 6th is further than you realize and you need to pull the lever further up to shift cleanly. That would, in fact, mean it's a "lurning curve". How long have you been riding this bike?

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post #3 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 06:08 PM
 
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Oh yea, this never happens if you switch gears without the clutch
Thats what you think!

I must be goofy because the only time I ever get false neutrals is when I shift without the clutch. Never any when using it.

I tend to think false neutrals are caused by operator error and no fault of the bike(assuming it's a 919).

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post #4 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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I'm trying to follow your logic here, but it isn't possible. (You've made a non sequitur.) Whether or not your friends need to learn how to shift has no relationship on whether or not you need to learn how to shift.

It sounds like the distance between 5th and 6th is further than you realize and you need to pull the lever further up to shift cleanly. That would, in fact, mean it's a "lurning curve". How long have you been riding this bike?

Only 1 week, and the fact that I called it a fake nuetral would, to me, symbolize that I did not mean it was actually a nuetral. Therefor the only reasonable answer would be that it is a further distance than I would think it should be. I only have 755 miles on my baby and lover her more and more with each mile.

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post #5 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjason View Post
Went on a long ride today and found that there is sometimes a fake neutral between 5th and 6th(LOL). And before you say it, Its not a learning curve, I had 2 of my other friends say the same thing happens on there bikes too from time to time(GSX-R's). Its kinda of wierd to describe, as you slip the bike into 6th gear and let out the clutch it will sometimes rev like your in neutral, as the revs come down to about 2500rpm its all of the sudden in 6th gear like nothing happened . Oh yea, this never happens if you switch gears without the clutch, and as a matter of fact my 919 seems to prefer that you don't even use the clutch while shifting up through the gears.
mrjason,

Don't sweat it! I have 20,000 miles on my niner now and I still to find the false neutral between gears. Just pull the clutch in and grab you next gear again.

One of these days I will be able to live a perfect life in everything I do with no mistakes and perfect accuracy. Until then, I expect I will find false neutrals ands choose the wrongs words on occasion?

- Rev. CYCHO -

tires.... it's what's for dinner!
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post #6 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 06:10 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by motorwerks919 View Post
Thats what you think!

I must be goofy because the only time I ever get false neutrals is when I shift without the clutch. Never any when using it.

I tend to think false neutrals are caused by operator error and no fault of the bike(assuming it's a 919).

I guess the reason I don't get it when I shift without using the clutch is because my shifts are quicker and more firmly applied.

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post #7 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 06:13 PM
 
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I guess the reason I don't get it when I shift without using the clutch is because my shifts are quicker and more firmly applied.
Exactly.

What really sucks is when I hit false neutral and then go full throttle and bounce off of the limiter 8 million times.

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post #8 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by motorwerks919 View Post
Exactly.

What really sucks is when I hit false neutral and then go full throttle and bounce off of the limiter 8 million times.



Yes, that sucks, My bike found its rev limiter with only 400 miles on it. Thanks to the fake neutral .

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post #9 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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but hey, I pretty much drive like I stole since about 300 miles. But I did wait till 500 and an oil change before I started playing in the last 25% of the tach, at least intentionally anyway.

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post #10 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 09:02 PM
 
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I get the same "BS" on my bike, between 5 and 6 the damn thing will feel like a false neutral and even click an just get stuck between gears untill I jab the shifter again to make it go in. My bike is the same as yours, if you don't use the clutch it works fine. It's a transmission issue not a rider issue! As a motorcycle mechanic and many years riding bikes I was kind of pissed that my new and now 5 months old and 6600kms on my bike did this kind of stuff. It would go away if you had the shifting forks polished, but for now we just live with it!!

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post #11 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 09:08 PM
 
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PEOPLE !!!!!!!


STOP SHIFTING WITHOUT THE CLUTCH!!!!!!!!!!!!


It is not a friggin transport truck... YOU DO NOT HAVE A TRANS BRAKE !!!!!!!!!!!


it might feel nice and smooth but it is not... the index gear is still spinning under load without the clutch to disengage the driveline. the edges of the synchronizer is making contact with the gear which in time wears the edge of the teeth down making the bike VERY hard to select and shift miles down the road. Worst case is the synchro's malfunction 1 time and your tranny explodes like a grenade. Also you are putting alot of stress of the shifter forks. bend indexing forks are EXPENSIVE...

you are not Valentino Rossi and he has a whole team of guys ready to rebuild his trans... for your own sake USE THE DAMN CLUTCH...


or don't ... I will ignoring whining later

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post #12 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 09:23 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by typhoonblue919 View Post
PEOPLE !!!!!!!


STOP SHIFTING WITHOUT THE CLUTCH!!!!!!!!!!!!


It is not a friggin transport truck... YOU DO NOT HAVE A TRANS BRAKE !!!!!!!!!!!


it might feel nice and smooth but it is not... the index gear is still spinning under load without the clutch to disengage the driveline. the edges of the synchronizer is making contact with the gear which in time wears the edge of the teeth down making the bike VERY hard to select and shift miles down the road. Worst case is the synchro's malfunction 1 time and your tranny explodes like a grenade. Also you are putting alot of stress of the shifter forks. bend indexing forks are EXPENSIVE...

you are not Valentino Rossi and he has a whole team of guys ready to rebuild his trans... for your own sake USE THE DAMN CLUTCH...


or don't ... I will ignoring whining later


Listen, if you know how to match revs and find that sweet spot right when you let off the throttle but before the revs start dropping shifting without the clutch is fine. Granted if you miss that spot to often your tranny will not last long. And just because I am not a professional driver does not mean I do not know how a trans opperates.

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post #13 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by typhoonblue919 View Post
PEOPLE !!!!!!!


STOP SHIFTING WITHOUT THE CLUTCH!!!!!!!!!!!!


It is not a friggin transport truck... YOU DO NOT HAVE A TRANS BRAKE !!!!!!!!!!!


it might feel nice and smooth but it is not... the index gear is still spinning under load without the clutch to disengage the driveline. the edges of the synchronizer is making contact with the gear which in time wears the edge of the teeth down making the bike VERY hard to select and shift miles down the road. Worst case is the synchro's malfunction 1 time and your tranny explodes like a grenade. Also you are putting alot of stress of the shifter forks. bend indexing forks are EXPENSIVE...

you are not Valentino Rossi and he has a whole team of guys ready to rebuild his trans... for your own sake USE THE DAMN CLUTCH...


or don't ... I will ignoring whining later

Are you serious??? Oh man thanks for the advice. I have been up and down shifting without the clutch since I got the bike...

post #14 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 10:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoonblue919 View Post
the index gear is still spinning under load without the clutch to disengage the driveline. the edges of the synchronizer is making contact with the gear which in time wears the edge of the teeth down making the bike VERY hard to select and shift miles down the road. Also you are putting alot of stress of the shifter forks. bend indexing forks are EXPENSIVE...
First off, our trannies don't have syncronizers. You are correct about stressing the shifter forks, but a properly executed clutchless shift causes almost no stress on them.

Read this to learn about motorcycle gearboxes: http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/shifting.html

Typhoonblue, What you are saying is true about car gearboxes but not mc ones.

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post #15 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 11:15 PM
 
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Typhoonblue919, The tranny will be just fine, and by the way the 919 shifts great when drag racing without the clutch! There is no syncro's, just shifting forks and it takes a pretty good screw up before you bend one of them. Motorcycle MFG's build these bikes with the idiot in mind, they design them to last by making the components pretty strong for us Throttle Jockies. I'm pretty hard on my Tranny, and it just gets better with time!

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post #16 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 11:18 PM
 
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P.S Typhoon is still pissy cause he doesn't have his bike back yet! lol

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post #17 of 22 Old 09-03-2006, 11:31 PM
 
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I am pissy. and I might just about cry... im tired of borrowed zx6r's and fz750's with no suspension left.



ACK....



still waiting....

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post #18 of 22 Old 09-04-2006, 04:11 AM
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I used to have my ST13 pop into neutral when I'd be too wimpy with the toe going into 5th. Stopped that problem by preloading and making sure I gave it a firm, solid toe. That habit just carries over to the new bike. So far, no problems. But I have almost no miles yet so pay no attention to me

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post #19 of 22 Old 09-04-2006, 02:33 PM
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When I first got my bike a few years ago I found that false neutral once or twice. It's not a good feeling, especially at a +6k shift. Since I have been using synthetic lubes (Moble 1) there has been no hint of it. Try it - see if you see a difference.

Mark

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post #20 of 22 Old 09-04-2006, 02:39 PM
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post #21 of 22 Old 09-04-2006, 08:09 PM
 
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Hmm... "Bikes prefer good, strong, crisp shifts" and "not shifting hard enough" sound a lot like something having to do with the "learning curve", as I originally suggested.

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post #22 of 22 Old 03-31-2007, 08:28 PM
 
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I Bought My Bike With 12,000 Miles On It....13 Months Later I Have 41,000 Miles. I Service Her As If She Is A Race Bike.....And I Upshift With No Clutch....Only From Standing Starts And From First To Second.. No Issues...No Problems...Smooth As Buttah!.I Use Amsoil In All My Motors

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