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post #1 of 21 Old 10-30-2006, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
 
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Criminal or imbecile? You decide.

A member of this board advertised a used Corbin seat for sale for $250. I asked him what condition it was in. He sent me a picture of a seat that looked perfect. I asked him how much he would charge to ship it to me. He said he could ship it via DHL for $18. I sent him a check for $268 and waited for the seat to arrive.

It took longer than I expected because he insisted on waiting for my check to clear the bank. When the seat arrived, it was damaged. I contacted DHL to find out how they handle items damaged-in-transit. DHL said to send the seat back to the seller for replacement or refund. The seller told me he would not take the seat back and he would not refund my $250. He said he would wait until DHL paid him for the damage, and then decide what to do. But he did not insure the seat when he sent it, so the most he could possibly get from DHL is $100, not enough to replace or repair the seat (Corbin charges $239 to recover the seat). The seller told me, "I didn't put additional insurance on the package (DHL covers up to $100 I believe) since I've never had problems with their service." This admission proves that he chose not to insure it, and he is solely responsible for the consequences of that decision.

Now I've been waiting for three months. I called DHL to find out what is taking so long. They told me that, more than a month ago, they sent a request to the seller to document the value of the seat and he has not responded to their request (nor to my last 2 PMs). I am beginning to think he is not ever going to send them the paperwork because he now realizes that if he collects money for damage to a seat he doesn't own (since he won't take it back and refund my money), then he will be guilty of defrauding DHL, and stealing from DHL carries a bigger penalty than stealing from me.

In summary:
1. I paid $250 + shipping for a seat in excellent condition.
2. I did not receive a seat in excellent condition.
3. The seller violated the terms of the sale by not delivering what I paid for.
4. Since the seller won't take the seat back and refund my money, he stole $250 from me.

What do you think?

PS: The seller's screen name is Bock919. I do not recommend anyone doing business with him.

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post #2 of 21 Old 10-30-2006, 07:45 PM
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caveat emptor


based on the title of the thread, i'd say u'r not lookin for an amicable resolution despite your described efforts

fwiw, i take regular deliveries of all sorts of stuff and routinely inspect packages/boxes for external damage while the driver/delivery person is still present (doesn't take much time)

insurance matters are normally discussed and agreed to by both parties PRIOR to shipment...figuring it out after shipment and after a 'problem' is discovered is not the way to handle things and both parties have some responsibility

IF the seat left bock's place in 'excellent' condition, there is no way for the sender to know if the damage occurred in transit or AFTER delivery

this kind of post should only be made after all other options have been exhausted

In Summary:

1) very few, if any, 'used' items are in 'excellent' ( a relative term) condition...at least by my standards of excellence
2) who's to say what you recv'd? excellent or damaged, there's no way to tell except to take your word for it
3) can't say anyone is violated except us havin to read this stuff
4) nobody "stole" anything if you are in fact, you have a corbin seat in your hands

if you want to avoid problems like this, buy new...buying used you take your chances

curious you did not describe the damage or attach pics...

also, since u've both been around for some time, i'm figurin neither of you is a turdball so hopefully you'll figure something out -gl

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post #3 of 21 Old 10-30-2006, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rb919 View Post
A member of this board advertised a used Corbin seat for sale for $250. I asked him what condition it was in. He sent me a picture of a seat that looked perfect. I asked him how much he would charge to ship it to me. He said he could ship it via DHL for $18. I sent him a check for $268 and waited for the seat to arrive.

It took longer than I expected because he insisted on waiting for my check to clear the bank. When the seat arrived, it was damaged. I contacted DHL to find out how they handle items damaged-in-transit. DHL said to send the seat back to the seller for replacement or refund. The seller told me he would not take the seat back and he would not refund my $250. He said he would wait until DHL paid him for the damage, and then decide what to do. But he did not insure the seat when he sent it, so the most he could possibly get from DHL is $100, not enough to replace or repair the seat (Corbin charges $239 to recover the seat). The seller told me, "I didn't put additional insurance on the package (DHL covers up to $100 I believe) since I've never had problems with their service." This admission proves that he chose not to insure it, and he is solely responsible for the consequences of that decision.

Now I've been waiting for three months. I called DHL to find out what is taking so long. They told me that, more than a month ago, they sent a request to the seller to document the value of the seat and he has not responded to their request (nor to my last 2 PMs). I am beginning to think he is not ever going to send them the paperwork because he now realizes that if he collects money for damage to a seat he doesn't own (since he won't take it back and refund my money), then he will be guilty of defrauding DHL, and stealing from DHL carries a bigger penalty than stealing from me.

In summary:
1. I paid $250 + shipping for a seat in excellent condition.
2. I did not receive a seat in excellent condition.
3. The seller violated the terms of the sale by not delivering what I paid for.
4. Since the seller won't take the seat back and refund my money, he stole $250 from me.

What do you think?

PS: The seller's screen name is Bock919. I do not recommend anyone doing business with him.

look being that i don't personally know either party I would say both are being a little stubborn..

First sounds like he stated to ship it to u for 18 bucks, sounds cheap to me my first question to him would've been does that include insurence b/c i ship stuff alot and all shipping co. only cover a 100bucks if no extra insurence is purchased. And the fact that he waited to cash a check till it cleared...DUH it's a check... not cash everyone would've waited! Dont take this as i'm bashing you cause i'm not its just that i've been there b4 and you both are in a bad place bock919 is out a good seat! if he gives you your money back that you only paid to ship with no insurence he is out both doesn't sound right to me. Fact is it is all DHL's fault but unfortunately that is why they make millions on that damn insurence that most of the time doesn't get claims put against. The best thing i see either of you doing is splitting the difference of the loss once you do get some out of DHL if you can't get it all. I hope you both dont hate me but the hole situation sucks!! And there is other ways of getting someones attention other than slamming them in a public spot! Just makes you look like an ARSE even if your not.

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post #4 of 21 Old 10-30-2006, 08:23 PM
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I can't believe what I'm hearing! Doesn't anyone on this forum buy anything online – private or commercial? The seller is responsible to get "as purchased" merchandise to the buyer. The seller contracted for the shipper. If Eddie Bauer sends me a torn shirt, Eddie Bauer makes it good. It's the sellers responsibility to argue with the shipper. You wouldn't expect anything less from the company who sold you bike tires, why would you accept less from a private seller. Seller, fix it. ...and if you're not happy about fixing it, next time insure it or deliver it yourself. Reputations are on the line here, both to make and to lose.

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post #5 of 21 Old 10-30-2006, 08:34 PM
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Bock919 is a long time member of this board and Motorush b4 we all migrated here. Haven't purchased anything from him personally but have witnessed several transactions occur between him and others. No negative feedback till now. I think it's fair to say that he would not intentionally misrepresent a part he is selling, especially something as expensive as a Corbin seat. Regardless of the insurance situation, if I were in your situation I would be hammering on DHL to cover damages because it is likely they are the cause. Not Bock919. If you feel he should have insured it for more then that's just an opinion. I think it's part of the risk you take when shipping parts whether they're new or used. Obviously, if they're new, the seller will give a refund.

Regarding him waiting for your check to clear - well, hell yeah, if someone sent me a personal check for a part (especially a $268 check) I'd have done the same thing. That's why when doing business with folks on this forum I only use Paypal or a money order. Badabing, badaboom. It's paid and on the way.

You didn't specify exactly what kind of damage the Corbin has. So in the interest of objectivity, what is wrong with it? Was the box it arrived in damaged? And how soon did you contact DHL about it?

Not trying to bash you here (as you did Bock919). Rather, asking for more info and how the facts shake out once the dust from the emotion (anger) settles.

You may not have asked for this opinion personally but when you posted here you made it all of our business.

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post #6 of 21 Old 10-30-2006, 08:42 PM
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I'll have to chime in here and agree with SupportSix. It is the sellers responsibility to make sure the advertized product reaches the destination in the condition stated. I've had things delivered that were thrashed by the delivery company and the seller has always made things right.

On the other hand... ratdog does make a good point that one man's version of excellent doesn't always agree with another. But, we all know that you need to give a "conservative" description of a product that you're trying to sell, especially sight unseen... unless you have ulterior motives to give someone the short end. I'm not arguing against trying to get the most for the things you sell... but let's not ruin a good community of "friends" over $100 bucks.

I say... find a good compromise and make it work. No one wins with pissed off attitudes or the idea that you can just ignore someone that has a legitimate issue!


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post #7 of 21 Old 10-30-2006, 08:53 PM
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i agree that the seller should be making it right to his ability according to what they aggreed on, but it is the buyer that decides whether or not to pay a little more to insure!! It's always your choice on how much you pay to ship if you don't like the risk or purchase price of insurence don't buy it, but you have to live with the BS that comes with not insuring it!! It is up to the seller to get the 100 or even the whole amount if there was insurence for more or maybe DHL has different polices and themore you [email protected]@k with them maybe they give all the money, but dont blame everything on the seller to quickly here!! There are always to sides to a story!!

The wrong Side and My side!!!

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post #8 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 04:16 AM
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Not taking sides - just making observations based on one side of the story:

Insurance - It is the buyer's prerogative to have the item insured. The seller quoted $18 for shipping and exactly $18 was sent for shipping. The buyer had the option of insuring for replacement cost with DHL and extra funds could have been sent to cover this cost.

Condition - pictures were sent that made it appear to be in excellent condition. You don't mention if he commented on the condition himself. From the explanation, it would seem he let the pictures speak for them self and you interpreted the condition solely from the pictures.

Damages - the actual damages aren't detailed. Is it something serious like a cracked pan? Or is it minor cosmetic damage? If it's something serious, it's probably worth the time to pursue it. If it's minor, have it repaired and move on with life. It's a great seat for a nice price.

Put it on. Enjoy it. Go ride.

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post #9 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 05:07 AM Thread Starter
 
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Interesting responses so far...

I'm surprised that so few of you understand that legally the seller is responsible for delivery of the item as described, unless other arrangements have been made in advance. If you have ever done business on the web where you were offered the opportunity to decline insurance, the company must make clear (somewhere on their site) that by declining insurance, you assume all risks. Any company that sells and ships anything without charging you for insurance is self-insuring-- if there is a problem in shipping, they have to send you a replacement.

Here's how contract law, the legal basis of all such transactions, works:

At some place and time, Party A agrees to give Party B something of value in exchange for something else of value.

In this case, Party B (me) gave Party A $268, and Party A took a week waiting for the check to clear in order to verify that he got what he wanted, but Party A never received what he wanted, and Party A informed Party B of the breach of contract as soon as the package arrived. Party A refused to take the seat back, saying "I hate to be a jerk, but I'm afraid I can't accept those terms."

For those who asked about the damage, the seat was improperly packaged so it shifted position, there was a hole in the box (probably from DHL), and the seat hung out the bottom of the box, probably getting scraped as the box slid across floors, leaving two holes (about 2" long) on the lower lip of the seat where the leather is stretched tight. If I were to use the seat, this area would rip further out. Corbin says it will cost $239 to fix because it has to be entirely recovered. Adding insult to injury, the seat doesn't even fit my 919. The latch does not fit, so I couldn't use it even if it didn't have holes in it.

I have been waiting for 3 months, without a usable seat, and without my money. That's more than enough time to wait for an amiable solution so, yes, I have given up on that. At this point, I consider it a total loss. And I stand by my warning about Bock919. Either he is too stupid to understand how to responsibly conduct business, or else he is criminally negligent in his conduct.

Regarding inspecting a package when it is delivered: that's not possible if you aren't there when the package is delivered. I inspected it the instant I received the package. I called DHL the instant I saw the damage. DHL told me to return it to the seller for replacement or refund. He refused to take it back. DHL's sole business relationship is with the shipper, the person who chose to ship the package through DHL, the person who decided he didn't need to insure the package because "I've never had problems with their service," that is, Bock919. The buyer does not have a business relationship with the company that the seller subcontracted to handle shipping! It is up to Bock919 to fix this mess, and he has refused.

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post #10 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 06:10 AM
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Ive never used DHL. UPS/FedEx only and I have never had a problem.

I would hammer away at DHL some more. Customer Service is huge. My suggestion, do some googling and try to find the VP of Customer Service or a related area. The VP of public realtions is easy to find... call them and tell them you got their name as the VP of customer service in error and ask them who the VP of customer service is... be creative... this info should be pretty easy to find.... they are probably quoted in an article somewhere.... try hoovers.com

Or, ship the thing to your office and insure the package. Then when you get it, drive over it with your truck and then claim the insurance.

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post #11 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 06:35 AM
 
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I'm not saying somebody is guilty in this situation, but according to the post office it is not the sellers responsibility to ensure delivery. It is your responsibility to make sure you pay with a means that will give you some leverage with the seller.........ie.....paypal, credit card, or debit card. I bought a stereo from a bloke on ebay and it was smashed up when I received it. I contacted the USPS and they paid the claim to me, then sent me a bill for the amount saying it should have went to the seller. The seller never reimbursed me so I took it up with Paypal. Finally paypal refunded my money, but it took about 3 months. Anywho.......good luck.....I'm sure Bock919 wasn't trying to defraud you, but you both may have different standards.

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post #12 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 06:50 AM
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The seller should and DID deliver the product in sold as description.

In my opinion, the matter of insurance falls onto the buyer, ALWAYS.

If seller told you $18 for shipping, you should have known insurance wasn't included and you should have inquired further.

Obviously opinions are varied, and the consensus doesn't agree with this.

Whatever though...I think it's the buyers fault. Not the sellers and not DHL's.

Also, to ice this pety cake...starting this thread and airing out your problem including naming names is pretty damn gay.

But again thats just my opinion.

Have a nice day.

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post #13 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 06:52 AM
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In my opinion, the matter of insurance falls onto the buyer, ALWAYS.


I always insure what I ship. Always!


Bock???????

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post #14 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 06:59 AM
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See this is what you get when you deal with the 919 types. This would never have happened if you own an RC.

I say you two get in a ring with tar and glass impregnated gauze wrapping around you hands and duke it out!

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post #15 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 07:01 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boston919er View Post
I would hammer away at DHL some more.
That would be useful if the buyer has a business relationship with DHL, but only the seller has a business relationship with DHL (and this is true at every shipping company).

I've talked to several people at DHL about this. Many of them didn't want to say anything at all to me because I am not the one who contracted them to ship the package. The seller, the one who chose DHL and chose not to insure the package (saving maybe $2 or $3), is the only one they have a business relationship with, and the only one they wish to speak to. They told me to return the package to the seller for refund or exchange, and the seller can talk to them about getting money for damages. But he refuses to take back the seat and he refuses to refund my money.

Another way to look at this situation is to imagine a mail-order sale. When you purchase anything mail-order (in the US), you have three days to inspect the contents upon receipt, during which time you can accept or reject the item and get a full refund if it is "not as expected" in any way. Bock919 incorrectly thinks this doesn't apply to him because, "mail order applies to companies. I'm an individual." Wrong! He was conducting business on the internet, so the same laws should apply. If not, then contract law certainly does apply, and he violated the contract by not supplying what I ordered.

The reason the mail-order law was enacted was because shady companies used to advertise junk for sale, describing whatever it was in the most glowing terms which made it sound valuable, and buyers had no way to know what they were getting before purchasing such products. When the sucker received his "gold locket" (or whatever) and discovered it was just a gold-colored plastic trinket (for example) he had no recourse. The 3-day inspection law specifically gives buyers a chance to inspect such items and guarantees them the right to return them for a full refund. The only way around this law is to fully and accurately describe an item prior to sale and to include the magic words, "sold as-is" and "no returns accepted". Needless to say, Bock919 did not utter these magic incantations before I sent him money, and I wouldn't have sent him the money if he had. I specifically wanted a usable seat in excellent, or at least very good, condition. I did not want a seat with 2 holes in it that has to be recovered (and doesn't even fit on my bike).

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post #16 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 07:03 AM
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I say you two get in a ring with tar and glass impregnated gauze wrapping around you hands and duke it out![/QUOTE]


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post #17 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 07:07 AM
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Like it was said by someone else, your thread title "Criminal or imbecile? You decide. " says alot. If you really want us to decide, with a title like that, you are only hurting yourself.

That said.............................................. ...........

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post #18 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdaa View Post
In my opinion, the matter of insurance falls onto the buyer, ALWAYS.
That might be possible if there was some way the buyer could force the seller to insure the package. But the seller is the one who subcontracts the shipper, and the seller is the one who pays for the shipping at that moment, and the seller is the one who has to enter the amount of insurance, and the seller is the one who has to prove loss of value if there is damage in shipping. Therefore, only the seller can be responsible. Furthermore, according to contract law, the seller must deliver to the buyer what the buyer paid for, or else the seller has violated the contract. In this case, the seller got what he wanted (money), but the buyer didn't get what he wanted (a good seat). Therefore, the contract of sale is void, and he should take back his seat and I should get back my money.

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post #19 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 07:39 AM
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I've said all that I will to rb on this issue. This is just getting ridiculous. It was obvious, as others pointed out, that the package wasn't insured. You should have told me you wanted it insured when I told you the original pricing for shipping and the seat. I'm not getting into a mud flinging contest with you over this.

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post #20 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 07:41 AM
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I would say that if I paid for a perfect seat I should get a perfect seat.

Not long ago I paied $500 for a Works shock for my EX500. When the guy got it to me it didn't fit. Not even close. The A-hole wouldn't even take it back. Luckily I was able to send it to Works for modification. It only cost me shipping and I lost a few weeks.

The one thing I walked away with from that ordeal is never buy anything from some guy online, unless it's really cheap, like under $20. In otherwords enough that if you lost your money you wouldn't be that pissed.

I have no solution to this problem.

When I send stuff I do a really good job packing it and I insure expensive items.

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post #21 of 21 Old 10-31-2006, 08:00 AM
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opinions are great but this situation isn't really getting resolved in this thread. you guys are welcome to take it offline and settle things behind closed doors and, as always, hope the outcome is fair and equitable.

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