Countershaft / sprocket wobble? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 11:18 AM Thread Starter
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Countershaft / sprocket wobble?

Bear with me, I'm still learning about motorcycle maintenance and diagnosing issues.

I took off the sprocket cover on the 919 to try and find where some new vibrations were coming from. On a rear stand, I started her up, put it into first, and noticed that the countershaft / front sprocket is spinning out of round, causing a "clicking" sound with the chain.

Are there bearings that could be shot? Or another factor to cause this? The bike has about 8k miles on it, and gets ridden hard from time to time.

Thanks!

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post #2 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 11:31 AM
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clam down, its a honda... it's very unlikely that the bearings could be shot. first thing we need to know is, are the sprockets oem?

second thing is: is your chain properly aligned?

3rd thing: is your chain properly cleaned/lubed? not stretched/kinked in certain areas?

get back to us with this info and we'll be able to help you more.

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post #3 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 12:26 PM
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can you post some video of what you are describing? I am envisioning excessive runout at the counter shaft sprocket... but could also see binding chain links tricking you into thinking the sprocket is out of round

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post #4 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 01:37 PM
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take the chain off first to check if it's actually your sprocket that wobbles. If it the sprocket nut got loose, torque it down and hopefully damage wasn't done.
If it's tight and whole thing is wobbling, you have bigger problems.

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post #5 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
If it's tight and whole thing is wobbling, you have bigger problems.
not if it isn't an oem sprocket....

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post #6 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
not if it isn't an oem sprocket....
Explain please.

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post #7 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 02:41 PM
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Aftermarket sprockets will float a bit on the splined shaft. The nut when torqued down doesn't sit tight against the sprocket.

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post #8 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 02:46 PM
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never even considered that. Should I be making shims for my 520 kit so it's tight? Or, is this play considered acceptable?

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post #9 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 02:48 PM
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This came up before with someone who didn't set proper slack (under suspension load) on the chain.

Make sure you have proper slack! (and that the rear wheel is aligned).

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post #10 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganktor View Post
never even considered that. Should I be making shims for my 520 kit so it's tight? Or, is this play considered acceptable?
I think it's OK, it doesn't move all that much and IMO it's like a self aligning chain.

For the OP, I would check your chain slack and make sure it's not too tight. I have felt that click/ thump before and loosened the chain a bit and it went away.

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post #11 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 04:57 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for everyone's response!

OEM sprocket, and the chain is properly aligned. Although, I tend to have to adjust it weekly or bi-weekly because the adjusters loosen up. I'll be installing safety wire on the adjusters this weekend.

I'll also check the sprocket and chain (including tension) after work tomorrow. I stopped by the dealershit today to get an opinion, and was told that it is very unlikely that the countershaft would be bent (would most like break if anything), and since I'm not leaking oil, they doubt it would be the bearings. I was told that if it were the countershaft, then I'd be 20 hrs labor. Yikes!

So... I'll start with y'all's advice and check the sprocket and chain first and go from there.

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post #12 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 05:51 PM
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Eptesicus,

you also shouldn't need to adjust your chain tension that frequently...it doesn't make a difference if the adjusters slacken up or not, since the tension is being held by the axle nuts...





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post #13 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shadow View Post
Eptesicus,

you also shouldn't need to adjust your chain tension that frequently...it doesn't make a difference if the adjusters slacken up or not, since the tension is being held by the axle nuts....
It can happen:

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...ert-16164.html

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post #14 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 06:06 PM
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Very true, what I did was when i changed out my counter sprocket from oem to aftermarket, I found a large dia. Rubber washer (thickest i could find) and used it between the bolt washer and the sprocket and bing go, tight and snug...

Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
Aftermarket sprockets will float a bit on the splined shaft. The nut when torqued down doesn't sit tight against the sprocket.

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post #15 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
Explain please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
Aftermarket sprockets will float a bit on the splined shaft. The nut when torqued down doesn't sit tight against the sprocket.
This right here. the OEM sprocket has a small rubber washer-like thing that helps reduce vibrations and the nut sits tight up against the sprocket. most aftermarket sprockets dont have this feature which makes them a bit free floating, which i quite like personally.

so, oem sprocket.... sounds like either the chain is too tight, or it has kinks/stretched out areas.

that is, if the bolt isn't loose, check that for sure. remember, follow the K.I.S.S principle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
as for the chain adjuster issue, i just went outside and measured my chain alignment and it's 100% aligned after ~3 months of hard riding since rear tire removal. i started following LDH's advice and stopped torquing the rear axle to oem specs and instead torqued it until i started to see rear axle bearing bindage and stop. haven't had an issue with the adjusters or chain being out of alignment yet.

my point is: i wonder if the chain misalignment is a result of user error while in the process of aligning the chain.....

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post #16 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
...started to see rear axle bearing bindage and stop.
And is this less or more torque? Explain?

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post #17 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
And is this less or more torque? Explain?
typically it's less than what the FSM calls for. let me see if i can find the thread.

edit found it. read from post #10 on.
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...tml#post452534

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post #18 of 48 Old 03-08-2012, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
typically it's less than what the FSM calls for. let me see if i can find the thread.

edit found it. read from post #10 on.
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...tml#post452534
Awesome, thanks. Makes sense, I'll have to check for that.

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post #19 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
Aftermarket sprockets will float a bit on the splined shaft. The nut when torqued down doesn't sit tight against the sprocket.
there is a substantial difference between small movement on splines and wobbling as a whole shaft wobbling.

I was responding to OP's post
"and noticed that the countershaft / front sprocket is spinning out of round"

If this is what's really happening, it's non normal, aftermarket or OEM sprocket.

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post #20 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
typically it's less than what the FSM calls for. let me see if i can find the thread.

edit found it. read from post #10 on.
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...tml#post452534

Never saw this post, I'm sure I've been over-tightening, I use a cheap torque wrench to get it to about 65 ft lbs and have to wrench the hell out of it.

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post #21 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
typically it's less than what the FSM calls for. let me see if i can find the thread.

edit found it. read from post #10 on.
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...tml#post452534
Not looking to start any arguments (yes Pvster, even with you as much as you might like it, lol).
There is no way axle bearings can be compared to steering head bearings in a sense of improper torque/binding etc. Totally different design and set up.
I agree with possible issues using OEM marks to do the alignment: very inaccurate and can cause issues.
However, if your wheel is aligned and OEM torque values are used, there is no way bearing will bind as there is no pressure applied against outer bearing race. Rear axle compresses against inner bearing races and the sleeve in between. To bind the bearing in such design, you need to have very bad misalignment or apply enormous torque to actually crash inner race or the sleeve. There is no way to do that with OEM torque values for the axle nut.
If your wheel is aligned and OEM torque is applied and you get bearing binding, you have some other issues, bad bearing being one of them. Never had this issue with binding bearings with OEM or even slightly higher torque on any of my bikes if alignment is correct, ever. This goes to any other equipment/machinery where similar design was used. Again, YMMV
Now steering stem bearings are different story, that’s where the bearing preload comes in play.

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post #22 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 07:44 AM
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hey zaq, not looking to start an argument so no worries there! i honestly dont know much about the issue and wont pretend to know. what i do know is this: previously i torqued the axle to FSM specs until i read LDH's comments. figured i would give it a go and i saw exactly what he mentioned regarding drag as the axle got torqued. so i started using LDH's method and i haven't had an issue with the adjusters coming undone. my bearings are good and i dont have any issues.

LDH is a far better person to respond back to you regarding this issue. i'm just reporting that i saw what LDH described and as a result started following his procedure with no ill effects.

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post #23 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
hey zaq, not looking to start an argument so no worries there! i honestly dont know much about the issue and wont pretend to know. what i do know is this: previously i torqued the axle to FSM specs until i read LDH's comments. figured i would give it a go and i saw exactly what he mentioned regarding drag as the axle got torqued. so i started using LDH's method and i haven't had an issue with the adjusters coming undone. my bearings are good and i dont have any issues.

LDH is a far better person to respond back to you regarding this issue. i'm just reporting that i saw what LDH described and as a result started following his procedure with no ill effects.
I would look into your alignment first, if it's off, that it's pretty self explanatory.
How do you know that your bearings are good? Do you know if your damper hub bearing is good? Did you installed new ones recently? If so, what method was used to install them? How are your axle spacers looking? Take your chain off and torque the axle again to proper torque. Does it still bind?

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post #24 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
I would look into your alignment first, if it's off, that it's pretty self explanatory.
perfectly aligned, i have a jumbo caliper for that job


Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123
How do you know that your bearings are good?
because they dont show the telltale signs of wear and every time i take the wheel off i inspect/clean/regrease the bearings. they were repacked at 12k miles when i bought it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123
Do you know if your damper hub bearing is good? Did you installed new ones recently? If so, what method was used to install them?
damper hub bearing is good. still oem. see above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123
How are your axle spacers looking? Take your chain off and torque the axle again to proper torque. Does it still bind?
axle spacers are good. still oem, cleaned and inspected every time the wheel comes off. wheel still binds at FSM torque specs with chain off. i generally find the drag starts to appear around 54-56 ftlbs torque, and that's where i leave it. no issues with the adjuster bolts moving on me. LDH's method works well for me.

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post #25 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 09:28 AM
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Hmm. if everything aligned, don't know than.
BTW, wheel bearings are sealed type, not serviceable, there is no way to repack or service them.
What telltale signs are you looking for when inspecting them? Could the fact that it binds when properly torqued be on of them Just saying









Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
perfectly aligned, i have a jumbo caliper for that job


because they dont show the telltale signs of wear and every time i take the wheel off i inspect/clean/regrease the bearings. they were repacked at 12k miles when i bought it.


damper hub bearing is good. still oem. see above.



axle spacers are good. still oem, cleaned and inspected every time the wheel comes off. wheel still binds at FSM torque specs with chain off. i generally find the drag starts to appear around 54-56 ftlbs torque, and that's where i leave it. no issues with the adjuster bolts moving on me. LDH's method works well for me.

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post #26 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 09:35 AM
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the wheel doesn't wobble, no side to side movement, smooth operation. it's good.

so are you saying LDH is wrong and every axle that he's torqued down that he thought was binding, had bad bearings? just do the test yourself and see what you think.

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post #27 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
Hmm. if everything aligned, don't know than.
BTW, wheel bearings are sealed type, not serviceable, there is no way to repack or service them.
What telltale signs are you looking for when inspecting them? Could the fact that it binds when properly torqued be on of them Just saying
Well, technically you CAN remove the outer covers, if you're careful, but doing so will ruin increases the chances of water getting in after you try and replace it. I just pried up the edges very lightly with the corner of a razor blade, and then popped the outside seal off. It will pop back in as well.

Should only be done as a temp. workaround if you've got new bearings on the way, etc.

I did it on my old dirtbike when I didn't want to replace the bearings (hard to find and way expensive). They are still working pretty good.

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post #28 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Well, technically you CAN remove the outer covers, if you're careful, but doing so will ruin increases the chances of water getting in after you try and replace it. I just pried up the edges very lightly with the corner of a razor blade, and then popped the outside seal off. It will pop back in as well.

Should only be done as a temp. workaround if you've got new bearings on the way, etc.

I did it on my old dirtbike when I didn't want to replace the bearings (hard to find and way expensive). They are still working pretty good.

one can use duct tape to fix stuff too. You'll be surprised how well it holds up

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post #29 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 03:20 PM
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Is the "wobbling" sprocket of discussion the drive sprocket? I installed my AFAM 17T drive sprocket today. First, I have a bolt and a large, steel, flat washer holding my drive sprocket. No nut, no rubber washer. Wanted to take a pic from the Service Honda website parts break down because that what it shows installed per Honda. The sprocket moves "slightly" when tight, nothing significant. I agree with Mike, that it "floats".

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post #30 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBB2 View Post
Is the "wobbling" sprocket of discussion the drive sprocket? I installed my AFAM 17T drive sprocket today. First, I have a bolt and a large, steel, flat washer holding my drive sprocket. No nut, no rubber washer. Wanted to take a pic from the Service Honda website parts break down because that what it shows installed per Honda. The sprocket moves "slightly" when tight, nothing significant. I agree with Mike, that it "floats".
I think the difference is, the stock drive sprocket has a green hard rubber piece that seems to be bonded to it. I have 22K on an aftermarket one that has some lateral movement, and hasn't been any issue.


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post #31 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
I think the difference is, the stock drive sprocket has a green hard rubber piece that seems to be bonded to it. I have 22K on an aftermarket one that has some lateral movement, and hasn't been any issue.

I would shim it.

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...blem-9014.html

Loose countershaft sprockets can possibly mess up your transmission bearings and seals. Just image it constantly does some banging/beating against the bolt acting like an impact wrench or a slide hammer. Bearings don't take lateral abuse too well. Try pulling bearing out by its inner race and you will see what I mean.
There are no known instances of any damage on the 9er by the loose sprocket but there are more that enough on other bikes to make one cautious.

BTW, I use aftermarket sprocket as well ( AFAM) without any issues so far.

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post #32 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
I would shim it.

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...blem-9014.html

Loose countershaft sprockets can possibly mess up your transmission bearings and seals. Just image it constantly does some banging/beating against the bolt acting like an impact wrench or a slide hammer. Bearings don't take lateral abuse too well. Try pulling bearing out by its inner race and you will see what I mean.
There are no known instances of any damage on the 9er by the loose sprocket but there are more that enough on other bikes to make one cautious.

BTW, I use aftermarket sprocket as well ( AFAM) without any issues so far.
You're probably right. I think I may put a rubber washer on when I change my sprockets soon. It sure can't hurt.

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post #33 of 48 Old 03-09-2012, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
You're probably right. I think I may put a rubber washer on when I change my sprockets soon. It sure can't hurt.
aluminum or steel should work too. Just make sure that chain is somewhat aligned and not binding.

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post #34 of 48 Old 03-10-2012, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
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Is the "wobbling" sprocket of discussion the drive sprocket? I installed my AFAM 17T drive sprocket today. First, I have a bolt and a large, steel, flat washer holding my drive sprocket. No nut, no rubber washer. Wanted to take a pic from the Service Honda website parts break down because that what it shows installed per Honda. The sprocket moves "slightly" when tight, nothing significant. I agree with Mike, that it "floats".
I think it only floats when the bike is at rest.
It is impossible for there not be some miniscule amount of chain misalignment, which should cause a resultant side load and stabilize the socket at one end of it's slip zone. There is no that transmission bearings are going to get beat up from this.

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post #35 of 48 Old 03-10-2012, 08:40 PM Thread Starter
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Been busy... I realigned and readjust the chain, and it seems it went away. Put about 200 miles on the 9'er today and checked it periodically - no issues.

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post #36 of 48 Old 03-11-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pvster View Post
i generally find the drag starts to appear around 54-56 ftlbs torque, and that's where i leave it. no issues with the adjuster bolts moving on me. LDH's method works well for me.
I tried this yesterday, and noticed my rear tire definitely had a lot of drag when tightened to OEM specs. I loosened the nut a bit and it felt 100% better, I'm a little sketched out about riding with it like that though.

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post #37 of 48 Old 03-11-2012, 12:19 PM
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sprocket movement

try this search "OEM 17th sprocket problem " it is an old thread but may be applicable.

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post #38 of 48 Old 03-11-2012, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBeeDeeGee View Post
I tried this yesterday, and noticed my rear tire definitely had a lot of drag when tightened to OEM specs. I loosened the nut a bit and it felt 100% better, I'm a little sketched out about riding with it like that though.
Have the wheel bearings been changed ?

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post #39 of 48 Old 03-11-2012, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondad View Post
try this search "OEM 17th sprocket problem " it is an old thread but may be applicable.
Here you go:

https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...blem-9014.html

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post #40 of 48 Old 03-11-2012, 04:28 PM
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wrong one, post #31 has correct link
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