cold start update - Wrist Twisters
 47Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 104 Old 11-22-2015, 10:52 PM Thread Starter
Cornicen
 
drivit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 530
Rep Power: 1
 
cold start update

The cutout or stalling problem when warm, cold or otherwise was NEVER caused by the Dynojet Power Commander 111. This was purely a faulty power supply within the right side switch assembly on the 919. Specifically the starter defeat feature when the kill switch is off, the contacts related to that, and their poor conductivity. Having ridden a full season and now well into the cold I can positively confirm that I have solved this issue.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0246.jpg (153.0 KB, 70 views)
Dario_hawk likes this.

drivit is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 104 Old 11-23-2015, 04:44 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,655
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
The cutout or stalling problem when warm, cold or otherwise was NEVER caused by the Dynojet Power Commander 111. This was purely a faulty power supply within the right side switch assembly on the 919. Specifically the starter defeat feature when the kill switch is off, the contacts related to that, and their poor conductivity. Having ridden a full season and now well into the cold I can positively confirm that I have solved this issue.
Thanks for the above post.
What all did you do to remedy your situation?
New parts?
Clean the contacts?
Any tips to pass on?
How did you ultimately determine the issue ? meter checks? parts swapping? whatever ?

mcromo44 is offline  
post #3 of 104 Old 11-23-2015, 09:25 PM
Centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right Here
Posts: 1,339
Rep Power: 1
 
I don't buy it. The PCIII is involved. Mine was hard to start. Removed the PCIII--instantly & permanently fixed to this day. No changes to anything else. Starting test were immediately before removal & immediately after. The PCIII may not be acting alone, but it is involved.

Bryce919er is offline  
post #4 of 104 Old 11-23-2015, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
Cornicen
 
drivit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 530
Rep Power: 1
 
Its an update, there are previous posts regarding this topic that have already covered these questions and other opinions several times.
If you have a PC111 installed and prefer to keep it, but are having starting issues you want fixed.........do a cold start search, happy reading.

drivit is offline  
post #5 of 104 Old 11-23-2015, 11:59 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,768
Rep Power: 1
 
Lol, this made me laugh. Thanks!

Pvster is offline  
post #6 of 104 Old 11-24-2015, 10:46 PM
Community Moderator
 
g00gl3it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,614
Rep Power: 1
  

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er View Post
I don't buy it. The PCIII is involved. Mine was hard to start. Removed the PCIII--instantly & permanently fixed to this day. No changes to anything else. Starting test were immediately before removal & immediately after. The PCIII may not be acting alone, but it is involved.
I'll confirm ^^ that above. When I sold my bike I had taken the PCIII off. Cold start gone instantly.

No other change to the bike.

2009 Aprilia Tuono - Ginger
2001 XR650R BRP (Big Red Pig)
2006 Honda 599 - Ex wrecked it :-D
2007 Honda CB900F (sold)
2006 Honda VTX 1300C (sold)
YouTube Channel
g00gl3it is offline  
post #7 of 104 Old 11-26-2015, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
Cornicen
 
drivit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 530
Rep Power: 1
 
Brilliant, especially for a moderator.
This is a simple and easy to prove power supply malfunction,
as stated by Dynojet from the beginning.
Get a used right side switch assembly for a cbr 600 or similar,
they are cheap and plentiful. Carefully break the connector to free the pins.
Open the headlight and disconnect the right side switch, plug the cbr pins in and you have just solved the issue.

drivit is offline  
post #8 of 104 Old 11-27-2015, 04:16 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,768
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
as stated by Dynojet from the beginning....
yeah because they don't want to admit that their product is the actual problem/issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
and you have just solved the issue.
No you haven't, because the only changing variable when the problem pops up is the pc3 itself.

If your "solution" is a permanent fix, then my "solution" of just holding down the start button a few seconds longer is an even better fix because you don't have to do anything. Not to mention its free!

Again, don't buy it. Been tested and proven repeatedly, the culprit is the pc3 itself.

Pvster is offline  
post #9 of 104 Old 11-28-2015, 02:18 AM
Community Moderator
 
g00gl3it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,614
Rep Power: 1
  

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
Brilliant, especially for a moderator.
This is a simple and easy to prove power supply malfunction,
as stated by Dynojet from the beginning.
Get a used right side switch assembly for a cbr 600 or similar,
they are cheap and plentiful. Carefully break the connector to free the pins.
Open the headlight and disconnect the right side switch, plug the cbr pins in and you have just solved the issue.
What, moderators can't have opinions? When was that rule made? Lol...

And explain how my starter switch worked like it did on day one after removing the PCIII and the cold start went away after removing said PCIII? That was my exact experience.

Don't get me wrong, I'm interested to see the results of a new switch on a bike that has the issue, without tampering with the PCIII, but when just removing the PCIII from the equation solves the problem, well, that's pretty easy math.

Next guy that has this issue we need to send him a switch.

2009 Aprilia Tuono - Ginger
2001 XR650R BRP (Big Red Pig)
2006 Honda 599 - Ex wrecked it :-D
2007 Honda CB900F (sold)
2006 Honda VTX 1300C (sold)
YouTube Channel
g00gl3it is offline  
post #10 of 104 Old 11-28-2015, 09:19 AM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,356
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
The cutout or stalling problem when warm, cold or otherwise was NEVER caused by the Dynojet Power Commander 111.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er View Post
I don't buy it. The PCIII is involved. Mine was hard to start.
Found the source of contention here. What everyone seems to have missed is apples and avocados are being compared, causing the misunderstanding. If it's hard or impossible to start it is probably the PCIII. Cutting out when riding (Meaning it has already started: an entirely different animal!) is the kill switch. Installing the Yamaha kill / start switch as seen in the OP photo cured the cutout problem, but would not necessarily cure a cold starting problem, which has absolutely nothing to do with the kill switch. How do I know? Look at the wiring diagram -- the starter circuit is powered by battery voltage supplied from the output side of the kill switch which also picks up the engine stop relay. If when the starter button is pressed the engine cranks over the kill switch is functioning normally and is not the cause of any problem.

If, however, the engine dies while riding the kill switch is a likely culprit (amongst a variety of other possible malfunctioning components), indicating poor contact in the switch that when affected by vibration or other external forces disconnects power to the engine stop relay, which does its job of stopping the engine when deenergized.

Just trying to get everyone to realize they are on different pages!

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
robtharalson is online now  
post #11 of 104 Old 11-28-2015, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
Cornicen
 
drivit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 530
Rep Power: 1
 
My PC111 is over 10 years old and mounted in a less than ideal location directly underneath the seat cowl. Throughout, its been neglected, exposed to constant heat from the silencer, annual cold winter storage, water spray when caught in the rain plus some significant pounding from a stiff rear spring setting. Also, considering the many hundreds of power fluctuations its received from repeated starting attempts, the thing's an effing champ, and I came very close to stomping on it.
On the other hand, Honda has supplied a switch that worked fine when new but began giving problems like power to the headlight for example. I cannot define exactly what the switch is doing wrong, its a make before break thing, but I guarantee changing it for a better one will make your 919 start first time, every time.
Your lack of comprehension is astounding, but you probably didn't get that.

drivit is offline  
post #12 of 104 Old 11-28-2015, 01:59 PM
rmb
Let's go!
 
rmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sussex Couty NJ
Posts: 7,650
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 9

Is the new switch different electrically? Is something cut out by pressing the OEM switch that isn't with the new one?

rmb is offline  
post #13 of 104 Old 11-28-2015, 03:39 PM
Tirone Choolaces
 
marylandmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 11,124
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Donation Donation 
Total Awards: 3

If a rider from Canada says it helped the cold start issue, it's probably worth giving a shot.

marylandmike is offline  
post #14 of 104 Old 11-28-2015, 04:38 PM
rmb
Let's go!
 
rmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sussex Couty NJ
Posts: 7,650
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
If a rider from Canada says it helped the cold start issue, it's probably worth giving a shot.
Great minds think alike...

rmb is offline  
post #15 of 104 Old 11-28-2015, 05:09 PM
Burn-em Upus Asphaltus
 
rickard919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 3,802
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

When I had a PC installed, I didn't notice enough difference to make it worth while moving it to my second 919. It's just sitting in a box in my garage now. Otherwise I'd give it a go.

Spoiler:

rickard919 is offline  
post #16 of 104 Old 11-29-2015, 02:10 AM Thread Starter
Cornicen
 
drivit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 530
Rep Power: 1
 
read it ALL again, seriously. u will need the matching throttle housing, or u can zip tie the new switch to your mirror and keep your old throttle ha, and for those of you that drilled your handlebars...........

drivit is offline  
post #17 of 104 Old 11-29-2015, 11:34 AM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,356
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
Your lack of comprehension is astounding, but you probably didn't get that.
Granted. I did not do any research before responding. Now I have. Here's my take on it, and while testing it is impossible for me (no PCIII on my 919) it does make sense.

First, a basic assumption: installing a starter / kill switch assembly from a CBR cured the problem. Cool. The question is how did it cure it? First, it's probably a new or newer switch than the one it replaced and the contacts are relatively pristine, guaranteeing a cleaner voltage from the kill switch to the load it supplies. Always a good thing, but maybe not the whole story. Part two is the electrical difference between the two switches: stock, the power to the starter button comes from the output side of the kill switch which will disable the starter when the kill switch is off. The CBR switch does not have this function. Otherwise, they are electrically the same. On the 919 all the kill switch powers is the engine stop relay and the starter relay.

Next, some basics about relays. All conventional relays have two operational voltage ratings. One is pull up voltage, usually listed as the coil voltage. It creates a powerful enough magnetic field to attract the steel armature and make contact. The second rating, rarely specified outside the data sheet, called hold voltage. It is the minimum power required to maintain contact, usually about 60% of the pull up power. This will become important later. Another characteristic is when a relay is deactivated it generates a negative voltage spike, or "back emf" in the same way an ignition coil does which can go as high as -250 volts for a few milliseconds. Generally, the higher the current rating of the contacts the stronger the back emf will be.

Putting it all together, when the starter button is pressed the relay applies battery voltage to the starter motor. The load drops the battery voltage to about 10 volts if it's in good shape and it's warm out. The colder it is the harder the battery has to work to spin the motor, and at the same time the weaker the battery is. Under these conditions the voltage may come close to the hold up voltage of the engine stop relay, but still not low enough to drop it out. That is until the starter button is released, the relay deenergizes, and a negative voltage spike is generated which will be sufficient to arc across the just disconnected starter switch contacts and apply itself to the output side of the kill switch. Under normal circumstances it would be absorbed by the voltage line from the fuse box, but with contaminated contacts in a ten year old switch the bulk of it may apply to the voltage holding the stop relay closed, temporarily deenergizing it. The ECU is "hardened" against this with high value capacitors that keep it alive until the relay reengages. The PC, however, may lose its initialization and cut power to the injectors, killing the motor.

If this is the case, and keep in mind this is all speculation, how to cure the problem economically? Simple. All that needs to be done is eliminate the back EMF from the starter relay by adding a shunting diode to the switched positive line at the relay to ground with the cathode (banded end) connected to the positive line of the coil. It will ignore the starter signal but bypass the negative spike to ground. No spike, no stop relay dropout.

As I said before I can't test this, so if someone with a PC who has the cold start problem kluge this up for a quick test? At most it would cost a dollar or two for a 1N4007 diode and take maybe ten minutes to hook it up. At worst it will have no effect.

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
robtharalson is online now  
post #18 of 104 Old 11-29-2015, 12:40 PM
Tirone Choolaces
 
marylandmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 11,124
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Donation Donation 
Total Awards: 3

Sounds much like the way a turbo encabulator works

marylandmike is offline  
post #19 of 104 Old 11-29-2015, 05:06 PM
rmb
Let's go!
 
rmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sussex Couty NJ
Posts: 7,650
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 9

Rob, if you would be kind enough to provide a simple diagram I'll be the test subject. Mine has the cold start issue in a big way since it got colder this year, I had to start it at least five times last Friday before I rode. If I can cure it with a diode I'm game.

rmb is offline  
post #20 of 104 Old 11-29-2015, 10:36 PM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,356
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
Rob, if you would be kind enough to provide a simple diagram I'll be the test subject. Mine has the cold start issue in a big way since it got colder this year, I had to start it at least five times last Friday before I rode. If I can cure it with a diode I'm game.
The attached thumbnails are of the starter relay gang plug and an edited schematic concentrating on the starter circuits and how they relate to the engine stop and starter relays. Included is the 1N4007 diode and its orientation. The lead at the banded end attaches to the Yellow / Red starter wire, and the other end to a good chassis ground.

For a description of the method of making a connection to a female terminal including how to remove it from the connector body: https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...ht-8592-3.html

Post #86 on the third page. Too lazy to duplicate that here.

For experimental purposes I usually just jam a wire or test probe I want connected to a particular circuit into the well the pin is in, usually resulting in a sufficient if very temporary connection, and jump the anode lead to the nearest bolt head, in this case the 6mm bolt holding the coolant header tank on the other side of the backbone. In this way if it works (crossed fingers) you already have the setup and just need to make it permanent. If it doesn't ... well, that's what experimentation is all about. At least it will only take about a minute to remove it, shake your head, and start at square one again. There must be a solution somewhere!

Incidentally, the 30 amp main fuse is in the picture, and the exposed 5mm allen bolt is the battery positive connection, where my battery tender positive lead is connected.

Here's hoping.

Rob

Oh, and the turbo Encabulator is child's play compared to this! Unless, of course, the pitch gyro magamp saturates, precessing into the yaw domain and the inevitable happens: Descartes contribution to 17th century rationalism was neatly negated resulting in a massive temporal chain reaction, the foundation on which our civilization is built crumbles, and chaos rules the next two centuries. At the very least. I hate when that happens!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Starter gang plug resized jpeg.jpg (125.0 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg 919 starter and engine stop relay positive curcuits.jpg (210.5 KB, 87 views)
crakerjac, Islandboy and Nealio919 like this.

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
robtharalson is online now  
post #21 of 104 Old 11-30-2015, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
Cornicen
 
drivit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 530
Rep Power: 1
 
i certainly was not referring to you sir, i apologize. it's bewildering how some responses have nothing to do with a particular thread, anyway your explanation is exactly right, thank you.

drivit is offline  
post #22 of 104 Old 11-30-2015, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
Cornicen
 
drivit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 530
Rep Power: 1
 
Before everybody starts slagging Dynojet, again, for inadequate capacitors, don't forget it worked fine when the bike was new.
The fix is on the Honda side of things.

drivit is offline  
post #23 of 104 Old 11-30-2015, 09:45 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,768
Rep Power: 1
 
Well this is an interesting development! With Rob's explanation and proposed experiment, drivit may be onto something.

But one nagging concern I have is how does a pc3 that didn't have the issue before, all of a sudden develop the problem and persist despite new batteries, contacts cleaned, and even swapping over to a different 919 that never had a pc3 installed, still carry the problem?

I don't know enough about voltage kick back to try and speculate on the different variables. I could however, see that depressing the starter button longer could prevent the pc3 from cutting power, based on Rob's theory. I'm curious to see what rmb's findings are, that is, if I don't get to it sooner.

Drivit, it's one thing to say you have an idea, but it's another when you don't provide an explanation or "proof" of a fix while proclaiming you have the solution and berate people for their doubts. So excuse the rest of us while we try to verify this via Rob's experiment.

Pvster is offline  
post #24 of 104 Old 11-30-2015, 11:01 PM
Community Moderator
 
g00gl3it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,614
Rep Power: 1
  

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 3

Unless, over time, that voltage irregularity has caused circuitry issues (overheating ?) on the PCIII mainboard itself? Just a guess...

Might explain how the issue appears on the PCIII over time, then goes away when removed from the bike.

2009 Aprilia Tuono - Ginger
2001 XR650R BRP (Big Red Pig)
2006 Honda 599 - Ex wrecked it :-D
2007 Honda CB900F (sold)
2006 Honda VTX 1300C (sold)
YouTube Channel
g00gl3it is offline  
post #25 of 104 Old 11-30-2015, 11:02 PM
Community Moderator
 
g00gl3it's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,614
Rep Power: 1
  

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Unless, over time, that voltage irregularity has caused circuitry issues (overheating ?) on the PCIII mainboard itself? Just a guess...

Might explain how the issue appears on the PCIII over time, then goes away when removed from the bike.
Has anyone torn into a used PCIII that has the issue to see if it has bad caps?

2009 Aprilia Tuono - Ginger
2001 XR650R BRP (Big Red Pig)
2006 Honda 599 - Ex wrecked it :-D
2007 Honda CB900F (sold)
2006 Honda VTX 1300C (sold)
YouTube Channel
g00gl3it is offline  
post #26 of 104 Old 12-01-2015, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
Cornicen
 
drivit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 530
Rep Power: 1
 
i just spelled out all the abuse mine has endured and it still works perfectly so....no......and its not my idea, its my solution. You got all the explaining you need to fix it and a guarantee.
Do you make your repairman explain every detail before you believe he fixed it. Because i'm from Canada it may or may not be an acceptable repair? Ever hear of intermittent automotive electrical problems? Nobody's forcing you to attempt the repair, if you threw your PC111 away and aren't pleased i wouldn't be either. I figured it out myself and detailed the procedure-big deal-it would have been a lot sooner if i wasn't misled by all the BS. Then a year later i graciously provide a final confirmation, prompt an excellent informative explanation as to why the switch is nada including a more economical, easier fix, and the BS keeps coming. No doubt there are several owners out there who also figured this power supply issue out on their own without ever having seen this website, wish i met one.

drivit is offline  
post #27 of 104 Old 12-01-2015, 10:35 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,768
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit View Post
i just spelled out all the abuse mine has endured and it still works perfectly so....no......and its not my idea, its my solution. You got all the explaining you need to fix it and a guarantee.
Do you make your repairman explain every detail before you believe he fixed it. Because i'm from Canada it may or may not be an acceptable repair? Ever hear of intermittent automotive electrical problems? Nobody's forcing you to attempt the repair, if you threw your PC111 away and aren't pleased i wouldn't be either. I figured it out myself and detailed the procedure-big deal-it would have been a lot sooner if i wasn't misled by all the BS. Then a year later i graciously provide a final confirmation, prompt an excellent informative explanation as to why the switch is nada including a more economical, easier fix, and the BS keeps coming. No doubt there are several owners out there who also figured this power supply issue out on their own without ever having seen this website, wish i met one.
Yeah yeah, and Rob made more contributions in ONE post on the topic than all of the posts or threads you've created. Really insightful, thank you! Not to mention he was much nicer about it (Thanks Rob, as usual!)

If Rob's theory proves correct, then technically, changing the switch is not the more economical, easier fix. A $2 diode and 10 minutes of your time would do the trick (if tested and confirmed).

Meanwhile, I think I'll just stick with the proven (and multiple members confirmed) method of keeping the starter button depressed for a bit longer than average. The best part is, the cost is FREE.

Pvster is offline  
post #28 of 104 Old 12-02-2015, 07:51 PM
Centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right Here
Posts: 1,339
Rep Power: 1
 
Like I said at the beginning...the PCIII is involved, although probably not acting alone. The stock bike, by itself, has no issues regardless of the age or condition of the stop switch. Only the addition of a PCIII brings about the problem. This has been proven repeatedly by removing the PCIII & it instantly & permanently curing the issue on a previously affected bike. If the PCIII was truly innocent, the starting problem would remain despite its removal & the bike would still be hard to start due to the bad switch--but that does not happen.

If Rob's theory is true & I am reading it right, the different type of switch has no bearing on anything--just that it is a "new" switch with clean contacts. Clearly Dynojet is not as smart as Honda since Honda safeguarded the stock bike against this by integrating a diode or capacitors into the ECU as Rob alluded to. Dynojet could have done the same within the PCIII black box to avoid this issue but didn't.

Rob, my question is those with the issue--of which I was one---to get our bikes to start we had to partially open the throttle while thumbing the starter button & it would start fine while the starter button is released & all. How does the opening of the throttle enable the bike to start verses the idle position other than it is looking at a different place on the fuel map for info? Would not the PCIII still de-energize with release of the starter button if it is a power supply problem? I'm not challenging just wondering.

Bryce919er is offline  
post #29 of 104 Old 12-03-2015, 08:14 AM
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
badmoon692008's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Neenah, WI
Posts: 2,222
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride 
Total Awards: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er View Post
Rob, my question is those with the issue--of which I was one---to get our bikes to start we had to partially open the throttle while thumbing the starter button & it would start fine while the starter button is released & all. How does the opening of the throttle enable the bike to start verses the idle position other than it is looking at a different place on the fuel map for info? Would not the PCIII still de-energize with release of the starter button if it is a power supply problem? I'm not challenging just wondering.
I always just held the starter button down, which based on Rob's explanation likely allowed the voltage to return to a high enough level to not allow the relay to drop.

To answer your question, opening the throttle could prevent this in two ways, first of all, higher RPM=more charging, it could be that the higher RPM raises the battery voltage slightly faster to a point where the relay cannot drop.
or, more likely I think, the higher RPM allows the bike to stumble through the momentary loss of fuel/spark/whatever is cut when the PCIII loses power and doesn't have time to die before the power commander returns to duty.

Love is the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle - Hunter S. Thompson
I just mı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨ade you wipe your screen.
-2009 Suzuki GSX-R 750 Race Bike
-2007 Honda 919
-1995 Nighthawk 750 (Tboned)
-1983 KZ 440 (Sold)
badmoon692008 is offline  
post #30 of 104 Old 12-05-2015, 10:09 AM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,356
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er View Post
Like I said at the beginning...the PCIII is involved, although probably not acting alone. The stock bike, by itself, has no issues regardless of the age or condition of the stop switch. Only the addition of a PCIII brings about the problem. This has been proven repeatedly by removing the PCIII & it instantly & permanently curing the issue on a previously affected bike. If the PCIII was truly innocent, the starting problem would remain despite its removal & the bike would still be hard to start due to the bad switch--but that does not happen.

If Rob's theory is true & I am reading it right, the different type of switch has no bearing on anything--just that it is a "new" switch with clean contacts.
Not quite. The CBR switch has one important difference: unlike the stock switch the CBR kill switch does not supply power to the starter circuit. No direct connection to the stop relay, so no negative inductive spike applied to it.
Quote:
Clearly Dynojet is not as smart as Honda since Honda safeguarded the stock bike against this by integrating a diode or capacitors into the ECU as Rob alluded to. Dynojet could have done the same within the PCIII black box to avoid this issue but didn't.

Rob, my question is those with the issue--of which I was one---to get our bikes to start we had to partially open the throttle while thumbing the starter button & it would start fine while the starter button is released & all. How does the opening of the throttle enable the bike to start verses the idle position other than it is looking at a different place on the fuel map for info? Would not the PCIII still de-energize with release of the starter button if it is a power supply problem? I'm not challenging just wondering.
To fully understand the problem everything must be taken into account, especially the chain of events when starting. As I already stated there is an inductive spike when the starter relay is deenergized, and a few milliseconds later a load of about 7.5 to 8 amps when the headlight comes on is applied. That's right, I said 8 amps, not the standard 4. Why? Hot, the resistance of the filament is about 3.5 ohms. When cold, however, its measured resistance is about half that. This load combined with the depleted state of the battery after starting drops the system voltage even more. BUT WAIT ... THERE'S MORE!!! With the engine idling the charging system does not produce enough power to charge the battery. It can only break even with the headlight on at about 2200 RPM, meaning the already heavily taxed battery is pretty much left to its own devices to keep things going. This condition only lasts a few seconds after starting. After that the battery regains its mojo, the loads stabilize, and all is once again right with the world. It's that pivotal couple of seconds that the system voltage is low enough to cause problems. Here's where keeping the starter going would have a beneficial effect: unloaded, the starter draws a tiny percentage of the power required to turn the motor, giving the battery time to recover before the headlight comes on.

Another experiment: for those afflicted with the starting demons, try pulling the headlight fuse first, thumb the starter button until the engine starts, then release it immediately. Odds are the engine will stay running. At least I hope it does.

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
robtharalson is online now  
post #31 of 104 Old 04-06-2016, 10:15 AM
Old, Bold rider
 
robtharalson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Aurora, Colorado
Posts: 2,356
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage

Awards Showcase
Donation Veteran Community Leadership 
Total Awards: 3

Did anyone try the setups / experiments I recommended?

Rob
Dario_hawk likes this.

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
robtharalson is online now  
post #32 of 104 Old 04-06-2016, 02:40 PM
rmb
Let's go!
 
rmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sussex Couty NJ
Posts: 7,650
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 9

I have 100 diodes but I have not had the chance to install one. The 919 is still buried in the garage. ..

rmb is offline  
post #33 of 104 Old 04-07-2016, 03:20 PM
Seen
 
Sean919's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Halifax
Posts: 105
Rep Power: 1
 
I'm from Nova Scotia and ride regularly in the off season and store my beloved 919 outside(late April to December) - have a PC3 installed and have never once experienced the cold start issue. Not scientific by any stretch but just my humble 2 cents from eastern Canada.

Sean919 is offline  
post #34 of 104 Old 07-12-2017, 07:36 PM
919 Rider
 
Islandboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Flinders island
Posts: 2,215
Rep Power: 1
 
Has anyone tried the fix described by Rob earlier in this post? Using a diode.

Islandboy is offline  
post #35 of 104 Old 07-13-2017, 03:55 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,768
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
Has anyone tried the fix described by Rob earlier in this post? Using a diode.
No sadly, I sold my pc3 in preparation to sell the 919. One test he mentioned was to see if one could pull the headlight fuse and test the energy spike theory. If I recall correctly though from a track day, I don't think the 919 ecu will allow the engine to run with one of the essential fuses missing - the headlight fuse or the running lights fuse. Cant remember which one. Can you try the fuse test Rob mentioned?

Pvster is offline  
post #36 of 104 Old 07-13-2017, 04:04 PM
919 Rider
 
Islandboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Flinders island
Posts: 2,215
Rep Power: 1
 
Pulling the headlight fuse made zero difference. I've ordered a new lithium battery, supposed to have around 400 cold crank amps. I'll see if that helps. I've also got some diodes ordered. When I get them I will try that method Rob suggested. Battery and diodes should arrive next week. I post my findings. Thanks mate.

Islandboy is offline  
post #37 of 104 Old 07-13-2017, 04:13 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,768
Rep Power: 1
 
damn, but good to know. The diode is the real way to test Rob's theory. Do share your findings please!

The battery won't make any difference though. Tried that route too lol.

Pvster is offline  
post #38 of 104 Old 07-13-2017, 04:16 PM
919 Rider
 
Islandboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Flinders island
Posts: 2,215
Rep Power: 1
 
Bugger. That battery cost me 300 bucks.

Islandboy is offline  
post #39 of 104 Old 07-14-2017, 05:21 PM
The Instigator
 
Ditch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,199
Rep Power: 1
 
So much fail. I've removed and installed a PCIII on 3 DIFFERENT 919's.

The PCIII is at fault, not when it's new but eventually.
Islandboy likes this.

2007 919
2003 CBR1100XX
Ditch is offline  
post #40 of 104 Old 07-14-2017, 05:55 PM
919 Rider
 
Islandboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Flinders island
Posts: 2,215
Rep Power: 1
 
It's the run around that dynajet give ya that gave me the shits. They emailed me and said they were 'aware of some asian and euro spec hornets having a cold start problem'. I smell bullshit. My unit was new and developed the problem within 6 months. Still under warranty. If I paid shipping, both ways, they would test and or replace. They also said my unit would most likely test fine on their North American bike. I basically told em this experience had left a bad taste in my mouth.
Now using Pvster start method, 8 second hold plus gave throttle 2500 rpm blip before release, bike has cold started 1st attempt 2 mornings in a row. Just like a honda should. Happy days. Will have a crack at a diode shunt next week.

Islandboy is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome