Clip link vs. rivet link... once and for all! - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 40 Old 04-03-2006, 12:44 AM Thread Starter
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Clip link vs. rivet link... once and for all!

OK.. I own the RK chain tool and I have done rivet type links until my last chain replacement about 1200 miles ago. Since I am always messing with sprocket sizes and I wanted more freedom to remove chain easier without redoing the rivet or disassembling half the bike, I opted for the clip style link.

Fast forward 1200 miles and yesterday.

Sunday it was beautiful out. I decide I want to go for a ride but I have been meaning to swap the front 16t off and stick on the 15t for fun. (I already run a 45t out back). I get the bike up on the stand, loosen the rear axle move the adjusters all the way forward and remove the front sprocket cover. I click first gear so I can remove the front sprocket nut and spin the wheel round to lock the gear in. WTF?! The clip on the clip link is effing missing. It's just gone. Luckily the sideplate is still pressed on and in place. I just can't believe my eyes. You hear all the paranoid and over cautious riders/mechanics rant on about the hazards of the dreaded clip style link. Never once did I really think it would actually come off. Insane!

Installed the front 15t, pressed off the clip link side plate and pins and promptly installed the rivet style I was saving.

I am here to tell you all.. this is a true story. For the record. I never really picked sides on this issue.. 'til now. I am a "why not try it and see sorta guy". Guess I am lucky I saw it instead of finding out a different way?

Conclusion: *** USE THE RIVET STYLE LINK! ***

- Rev. CYCHO -

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post #2 of 40 Old 04-03-2006, 06:17 AM
 
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I always want the rivet link when I replace my chains too. BUT all the dealerships around here (three major ones) wont put it on!!! We have to do it ourselves. Stupid lazy mechanics, they say they dont even have the tools. I did have one bike with a clip link in it and it was fine for me but I checked it every ride to make sure it was still there.

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post #3 of 40 Old 04-03-2006, 10:10 AM
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Sounds like you may have had the rear wheel mounted and not aligned too good. It would make the chain run a LITTLE(tiny eeny wheeny bit) sideways. Which puts slight strain on the chain from the side. Over time that can screw your clip link. You're so fortunate. I'm glad it didn't turn out worse.

OR, maybe it was just faulty

I have a rivet type. I put it on in a very MacGuyver way... I think turn_1 remembers how I did it. 10000 miles later, I'm still going good.

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post #4 of 40 Old 04-04-2006, 12:15 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragdoll
Sounds like you may have had the rear wheel mounted and not aligned too good.
That just isn't it. I use a Rohm Performance Machine chain adjustment measuring tool and I am very particular about the chain aligment. I understand your therory though.

I think it was from hard throttle bumps to get the front tire off the ground. I have got to chill on wheelies.. I got a nasty ticket two weeks ago. Don't even want to say what it was I got sited for.. let's just say I have hired an attorney. Anyway.. don't want to hi-jack my own thread.

Anyone interested in:
Rohm Performance Machine
3120 Industrial Drive
Yuba City, CA 95993
916-674-9123
916-674-91453
E-mail: [email protected]

I just can't find a picture of the tool. I had to order it right from RPM. It is a really great tool... a must have if you are like me and can't seem trust the eyeball method and those silly lines on the adjusters. I notice even the slightest skew in the steering head when the rear axle is off perpendicular to the frame center. Went nuts on if for weeks until I got the RPM tool.

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tires.... it's what's for dinner!
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post #5 of 40 Old 04-04-2006, 05:51 AM
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Yeah, I'd probably lay off the wheelie stuff on public roads if I were you.

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post #6 of 40 Old 04-07-2006, 10:32 AM
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i had the same thing happen on my bandit 1200.used a clip type and it came off ridin to the dealer to have the rivet type put on.i was lucky and no it wasnt misaligned.whatsa good rivet tool to use?i hate havin to pay the dealer scalper freakin prices.

post #7 of 40 Old 04-07-2006, 11:10 AM
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I got so sick of chains I bought a shaft drive and installed in on my bike. It rocks.

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post #8 of 40 Old 04-07-2006, 11:29 AM
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I bought this one and am very happy. 100 bucks for a good combo tool shouldn't break the bank.

http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/...riveting_tool/

They recommend grinding the rivet head on 530's on up. Just get out your Dremel. Shame on the lad who doesn't have his own Dremel.

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post #9 of 40 Old 04-07-2006, 12:27 PM
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I have seen the same thing on a 929.....clip link had lost the clip and was held on only by the sideplate.

Another time on a Duc at the Streets of Willow...this guy comes onto the front straight and losses the chain, wasted about $2000 in CF parts (muffler, chain guard, sprocket cover) damaged his wheels and swingarm and the only good part was he didn't crash and the chain didn't hit anyone.

post #10 of 40 Old 04-09-2006, 07:47 AM
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clips are for dirt bikes. i use the Rohm idea too its foolproof. if you swap the swingarm pivot around, so the nut is on the chain side, you can remove the drive chain without taking the swingarm off. just that nut, the 2 on the pivot support/footpeg bracket, and your there.

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post #11 of 40 Old 04-09-2006, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit
clips are for dirt bikes. i use the Rohm idea too its foolproof. if you swap the swingarm pivot around, so the nut is on the chain side, you can remove the drive chain without taking the swingarm off. just that nut, the 2 on the pivot support/footpeg bracket, and your there.
no chit??

cool, hmmmm...can't think of any downside to doing this, anyone?

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post #12 of 40 Old 04-09-2006, 09:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdog
no chit??

cool, hmmmm...can't think of any downside to doing this, anyone?
I ran mine swapped for a while.. til I just couldn't live with it being 'not the way it's supposed to be!' I don't know.. seems it should be fine either way? The recessed areas are different on each side so it looks different if I am remembering correctly? Sure makes chain removal a snap.. that's for sure.

The only thing I can offer is this.. Honda has the nut on the right... seems like they might have had a reason?

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post #13 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 10:03 AM
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New chain victim here! On my way to work today, got 35 miles from home, down in a valley filled with farms. I had adjusted my chain twice in the last two days because it felt like it was getting "tighter" not looser! I'm motoring along, at the speed limit, very conservatively, when this "wubba wubba wubba" noise starts. I stop and check the driveline, nothing. I figure I better solve this at home rather than at work (55 miles away) so I turn around and start back for the barn. About two miles and the noise is obviously getting louder, then "zip", the revs jump up and no power. I looked behind me and my chain is laying in the road. No damage to anything else and no cell phone service! Local irrigation master drives by and saves me with his cell phone. Wife on the way with the truck and ramp.

When I bought this RK Xring from the Honda dealer (imagine the dealer getting it for slightly less than anywhere I could find on the net), I asked for a clip link. When it came, it had a rivet link included. Me and the parts guy have a few looks at each other while I tell him this is no good to me. He goes to his parts bin and comes back with a 530 master clip link. I stick it through the ends of the chain right in front of him and the pins are too short, by a bunch! He goes back again and gets one that says "560" I think. The pins are "just right, goldilocks". He gives it to me. That was last year, been working out fine till today. I did not lose the clip, the other side of the master link, the heavy plate that has the two pins housed in it, sheared in half! I have half of it. I still have the rivet link but no tool. I can go to the Honda dealer and hopefully he will take pitty on my and help out with another clip link till I can get a tool.

Question, I want to clean my chain while it is off. I want to just immerse it in something and scrub it with a small, soft brush. What should I buy to immerse it in? Is mineral spirits too harsh for the Xrings? The instructions on the chain box say to use a mineral oil based cleaner -- what's that? Would just mineral oil work as well?

Thanks guys,

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post #14 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 10:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by support_six
Question, I want to clean my chain while it is off. I want to just immerse it in something and scrub it with a small, soft brush. What should I buy to immerse it in? Is mineral spirits too harsh for the Xrings? The instructions on the chain box say to use a mineral oil based cleaner -- what's that? Would just mineral oil work as well?

Thanks guys,
Very lucky indeed support_six. You can use kerosene, Honda Brake/Contact Cleaner or any high flash point solvent.

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post #15 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 03:11 PM
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your right about the kerosene but not the other 2, they are too harsh and will damage the o rings. the nuts are all on the same side for production line continuity. clips are for dirt bikes.

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post #16 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 04:18 PM
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Well, it's done! I had a jub of mineral spirits (used to clean up greasy stuff, clean paint brushes etc. I use it to degrease parts to M1 Garand rifles). I plunged the chain in an aluminum foil loaf pan (disposable and only $1), used a very soft .60 disposable paint brush, and it came out very clean. Contact time was about five minutes. It is drying outside, hanging from a clothes hanger over some decorative gravel in the yard.

The Honda shop was conciliatory about having just handed me a clip link from their benchstock; however, they gave me another one, different this time, and said it would get me by till my friend at work comes up with the rivet tool. Yes, I know I should go ahead and buy the tool but it ain't in the budget yet.

Earlier in the day, when I needed saving and my T-Mobile cell had no service, a local irrigator operator stopped and let me use his to call my wife. I told her to get the metal ramp from back of the lawnmower. All she heard was metal ramp, and brought me out my two drive-up ramps you use to work under your car! 35 miles away and wrong ramps. Ten inches ain't hardly going to get this bike up in the back of my Dodge Dakota! Well, in waiting for her, I knew I'd need to push the bike up the ramp myself (couldn't do it under power like I do with my dirt bikes -- NO CHAIN!) so I found a ditch bank I could back up to and to my surprise, I only needed a ten inch lift to get the wheel onto the truck -- the drive ups worked! My wife felt better. I keep tie-downs in the truck for the dirtbikes anyway so no problem.

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post #17 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 04:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit
your right about the kerosene but not the other 2, they are too harsh and will damage the o rings. the nuts are all on the same side for production line continuity. clips are for dirt bikes.
Makes sense to me.

I use kerosene as well. I would not recommend submerging the chain in it or anything for that matter. If any of your o-rings or x-rings are slightly worn at all and the kerosene or whatever you are using gets past them.. the chain becomes a flinging messy useless POS. All the internal grease comes out and it's done. Use a soaked rag or get one of those fancy chain brushes.. I forget the name. I have one but have not used it yet. Just wipe it down good and re-lube it.

I know lots of people try to push insane mileage out of a chain.. and I will get more mileage out of my current chain because I am doing less wheelies and the ones I do are smoother.. but I say buy a new chain often. They really are a maintenance item. Like tires and oil. Your sprockets will last longer and the bike rolls along happier with new parts on it anyway. Mileage varies greatly on chains due to riding styles, load and maintenance. If you think your chain is up.. just buy a new one.

My 2 cents.

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post #18 of 40 Old 07-06-2006, 04:23 PM
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I got the same motion pro tool as Bigdaa a couple of years ago. Nice tool. I don't like clips, they come off my 6 HP go-cart. But, a little JB weld fixed that problem. BTW, the local Honda dealer just sold the same tool to my buddy for $82. [Group buy?]

I recently got a master link for my 9er so I could take a link out of the incredibly long stock chain, and noticed the part number was different for the same chain manufacturer, same chain size [530], but different bikes. When I asked the dealer about this he had both the 9er and Superhawk Honda rivet links for a D&D chain and I got to see firsthand that not all links are created equal. The Superhawk link is a little heavier around the pin area.

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post #19 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 05:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drivit
your right about the kerosene but not the other 2, they are too harsh and will damage the o rings. the nuts are all on the same side for production line continuity. clips are for dirt bikes.
I beg to differ. I've been using the Honda Brake cleaner for almost 23k miles and I still have a chain that shows "New" at the swingarm indicator. It hasn't stretched since it's intial break-in 20k miles ago. The can also says "Safe for most plastic, rubber, and painted surfaces" on the label. I was skeptical of this cleaner at first but after hearing other riders using it I finally tried it. I will use nothing else ever again. I usually clean the chain when I get a new rear tire.

http://www.worldofpowersports.com/cg...8732-0010.html

Any high flash point solvent is also recommended by Honda in my service manual right next to the kerosene.

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post #20 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 07:26 AM
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I hate to be the odd man here.. and I agree the rivit type are by design more secure ... But I have put many miles and years on the clip type and have never had a problem...
the 2 most common cause of losing the clip is first putting it on backwards...
and they put the side plate on then put the clip on and call it done...
ussally in pressing the side plate on they push it on too far (almost have to to get the clip on) and don't know or forget about the last step of taking a screwdriver or some such and wiggling the sideplate back out so that is up against the clip... (this was something I had the fortune of learning from an grizzled old bike mechanic years ago)

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post #21 of 40 Old 07-07-2006, 07:27 AM
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Well, here's another chapter. The Honda shop gave me a "non-stock numbered" clip link to allow me to get the bike out of the back of my truck and home. By eye, it measured up and should have worked. It didn't. The pins were slightly too short, maybe 1-2 mm. Couldn't get the side plate on far enough to uncover enough of the notches to get the clip to seat. I put it on best I could to go the one mile from the place where I could get the bike out of my truck, to home. The cliplink that caused this whole mess in the first place was not an RK clip that matched my chain. So if you do run a cliplink, for heaven's sake, get the correct, matching cliplink and don't let any Honda dealer parts guru tell you something else will work.

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post #22 of 40 Old 07-08-2006, 02:22 AM
 
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your not the only odd man roseknight. Any clip link that comes apart was not put together properly ... period.

15 years on a street bike and 6 years racing motocross every weekend all summer on 2 different cr125r's and a cr250r going through MANY MANY chain's in my life and have NEVER NEVER had a clip link break or wiggle out. I have had chains break but never in the master link... I broke one 15-20 links away from the master on my CR 250.


keep your scary clip story's for the campfire, right after the one about the pink elephants. LMAO

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post #23 of 40 Old 07-08-2006, 03:19 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoonblue919
your not the only odd man roseknight. Any clip link that comes apart was not put together properly ... period.

15 years on a street bike and 6 years racing motocross every weekend all summer on 2 different cr125r's and a cr250r going through MANY MANY chain's in my life and have NEVER NEVER had a clip link break or wiggle out. I have had chains break but never in the master link... I broke one 15-20 links away from the master on my CR 250.


keep your scary clip story's for the campfire, right after the one about the pink elephants. LMAO
Well then.. I guess that settles that. Give me an effing break. Been around a few blocks myself, YO!.. and I will be the first to admit I don't know everything... but just cuz you have 7000 years experience blah blah blah doesn't make my story untrue or my chain installation skills suspect. I was an ASE certified mechanic at one time and have been working on chain drives since 1988 in one form or another. It aint friggin' rocket science. My Clip link was not installed wrong, but it did come off. My chain was not misaligned either. If you are calling me a liar go eff yourself with one of your bullet proof clip links. Look, do what you want.. me, I'm installing rivet links from now on. 15 years may seem like a long time to you.. and your corner of the world might seem vast and wide.. but brother, you aint seen everything and you don't know everything. Next time you toss out a generalized statement like this, ask yourself if you really are the worlds foremost authority on that subject. Have you really had enough experience to make such a blanket statement? Maybe try something more like, "in my experience, however limited it might be, I have found..."

Sheesh!

P.S. Just in case you are thinking about applying the same level of scrutiny on me for having started this thread with the title "Clip link vs. rivet link... once and for all!", I was making this charge as a commitment to myself, then sharing a REAL experience for the benefit of all. I was not trying to actually settle the most important primary drive debate since the first chain was riveted at some factory somewhere. I would not have presumed to know what was best for you or all users.. just wanted everyone to know what actually happened to me. Of course, I might be a complete effing retard with no concept of how to install a chain. You decide. Like I said.. Do what you want!

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post #24 of 40 Old 07-08-2006, 04:03 AM
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motoC- You're advise is correct and to the point. If others want to run clips then be my guest. When you read between the lines of typhoonblue's post you will note that he makes reference to cr125's and cr250 dirt bikes. The torque these 2 stroke singles put out don't in any way compare to a 919 cc inline 4 now does it? Kind of like comparing baby crab apples to oranges...

Gather around the campfire kiddies, I want to tell you about another scary clip story. Back in the days when I was involved with a motorcycle repair shop we replaced a whole lot of engine cases due to broken chains with 'you guessed it' clip links! Worse yet, a few customers had nasty accidents when a broken chain got tangled up in the rear wheel.

It's not rocket science installing master links.
You can use whatever link you feel like, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

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post #25 of 40 Old 07-08-2006, 09:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m51142
motoC- You're advise is correct and to the point. If others want to run clips then be my guest. When you read between the lines of typhoonblue's post you will note that he makes reference to cr125's and cr250 dirt bikes. The torque these 2 stroke singles put out don't in any way compare to a 919 cc inline 4 now does it? Kind of like comparing baby crab apples to oranges...

Gather around the campfire kiddies, I want to tell you about another scary clip story. Back in the days when I was involved with a motorcycle repair shop we replaced a whole lot of engine cases due to broken chains with 'you guessed it' clip links! Worse yet, a few customers had nasty accidents when a broken chain got tangled up in the rear wheel.

It's not rocket science installing master links.
You can use whatever link you feel like, you pays your money and you takes your chances.
Very well said m51142! One of the most over looked and under performed maintenance task is the chain. Sadly, it's also one of the easiest maintenance task to perform on the bike.

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post #26 of 40 Old 07-09-2006, 01:11 AM
 
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I give up... I typed out a huge response and then my computer musta had a rivet pop or a clip fall off and now I lost it. I don't feel like typing it again.

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post #27 of 40 Old 07-09-2006, 08:34 AM
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Clip links= on our street bikes. Anyone arguing the point is a
head except for Typhoonblue. He is a mallet head.

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post #28 of 40 Old 07-10-2006, 09:00 AM
 
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cool I get the honor of a step above a hammer head N I C E !!!

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post #29 of 40 Old 07-10-2006, 06:25 PM
 
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Quote:
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cool I get the honor of a step above a hammer head N I C E !!!
He must really like you.

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post #30 of 40 Old 07-12-2006, 12:59 PM
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Since I resurrected this thread with my tales of wo, I'd like to put forth my own thinking -- knowing some will disagree -- so be it.

1. A rivet is probably stronger than a clip link "in all cases".
2. A clip link is probably adequate "if" it is the clip link for that very brand and model of chain! I agree, the torque of higher performance roadbikes is near the limit of what any cliplink can tolerate, but, a the "right" clip, properly installed, and ridden within reason has no reason to fail. Mine failed not because of my moderate style of riding, but because it was not the cliplink made for that chain. If you run an RK 530XSO chain, then run an RK 530 XSO clip or rivet link! Not something that looks close! Buy "properly installed" I mean with a side plate that needs to be press fit. If you can put it on with your fingers, pliers, or even vise grips, it ain't on well enough. If you need the chain tool to put it on, then you might as well run a rivet clip since you need the tool anyway. For these larger bikes and chains, just keeping a cliplink in your tool kit isn't good enough since you must have the chain tool also.
3. Evidence that bikes with increased torque need rivet links over clip links doesn't hold water since they also have larger chains. My old CB450 Honda had a lot less torque than my 919 but it had a smaller chain too.

Anyway, I'm waiting for a rivet link to arrive from the Honda Dealer to get me back on the road.

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post #31 of 40 Old 07-12-2006, 06:04 PM
 
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torque has little to do with the clip or rivet anyways...


the strain is 100% on the sideplate of the masterlink... the clip or rivet is just a retainer that holds it in place. If a properly installed clip fails then chances are it would have failed if it was riveted. I have seen chains break at the sideplate 20 links away from the master. break the roller pin and bend the sideplate and snap.

If a clip retainer scares you stop driving your car/truck also. There are clip retainers that hold the flex lines on your brakes and retainer clips holding your transmission linkage together... fuel filters on most cars/trucks are also GOD FORBID !!!! PLASTIC CLIPS.

I dunno why the torque thing was even brought up? Do I need to make an .pdf informative file on how a chain works????

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post #32 of 40 Old 07-12-2006, 06:15 PM
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It is not physically possible to have the same amount of tension retaining capability on a clip as it is to have on a good rivet, all things being equal. Surface area matters.

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post #33 of 40 Old 02-17-2007, 11:46 AM
 
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Don't open your mouth unless you really know what your saying!!

Typhoonblue, shut up dude b4 I run your ass off the road this year for stupidity, I never broke a link on my motocross bikes, but I have mashed Master links due to the clip falling off! I have also broke chains and mashed cases on my street bikes, and all of this due to a clipped master link! There is a well know statement that you overlooked b4 you opened your mouth, "YOUR CHAIN IS ONLY AS STRONG AS IT'S WEAKEST LINK" ! That link being the master link Also torque has a big effect on what stays together and what comes apart on many things!

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post #34 of 40 Old 02-17-2007, 11:35 PM
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So it boils down to getting the proper master link for the chain and properly installing it, whether it is rivet or clipped. If you are using a clip, remember to carefully feel it with a fingertip -- you will notice one side will feel slightly rounded on the edges, and the other side sharp. Install the clip with the sharp side facing out to more fully retain it in its grooves, then drive the side plate outward to seat lightly against the clip. Personally, I always use a rivet link once I have the gearing where I want it, but a clip up until that time. I know a mechanic who always TIG welds the side plate to the pins -- he won't tell me how he keeps from frying the o-rings.

Rob

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post #35 of 40 Old 02-17-2007, 11:43 PM
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he won't tell me how he keeps from frying the o-rings.
A wet Rag & a quick Tag.

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post #36 of 40 Old 02-18-2007, 01:07 AM
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Here's something to add to the mix:

If you spend more than about $100 for a bicycle, the chains are all pressed fit rivets; no more cliped master links.


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post #37 of 40 Old 02-18-2007, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HEYARCHIE View Post
Typhoonblue, shut up dude b4 I run your ass off the road this year for stupidity, I never broke a link on my motocross bikes, but I have mashed Master links due to the clip falling off! I have also broke chains and mashed cases on my street bikes, and all of this due to a clipped master link! There is a well know statement that you overlooked b4 you opened your mouth, "YOUR CHAIN IS ONLY AS STRONG AS IT'S WEAKEST LINK" ! That link being the master link Also torque has a big effect on what stays together and what comes apart on many things!
I think he shut upped on this topic about 7 months ago.

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post #38 of 40 Old 02-18-2007, 06:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rob919 View Post
I think he shut upped on this topic about 7 months ago.
Maybe it just took him a while to respond.

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post #39 of 40 Old 02-19-2007, 01:37 AM
 
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nahhh... he's got colour envy... everyone knows blue is faster than black.


you want ????



there's your


hey Jay I thought you were losin the 9r anyways... what you doin hangin around the cool people club???

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post #40 of 40 Old 02-19-2007, 04:46 AM
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I just noticed,,,,and how odd that this group didn't point it out...

If you look back on page 2, where the manual depiction of cleaning the chain is... there is evidently a super special honda tool that we should ALL be using to clean the chain.. and I suggest and motion at once that we all put in for a group buy of this item... as it sure must be the solution to all of our cleaning problems... now we just need to find where to get a "Brash" and get them quick before anyone else does

and a Soft one at that.....

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