Check Sag by Yourself - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
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Check Sag by Yourself

I've got lots of good info in these forums, so i decided it was time to show off my own genius. (Wiley Coyote Super Genius type not Einstein type). I was looking for a way to measure sag by myself as i have no friends. I couldn't find much, so I came up with this. Sorry if this is already common knowledge. I couldn't find anything. The pics should be pretty self explanatory. With the bike on the center stand, I taped a sharpie into the little notch where the swingarm is welded and braced it up on the other side with a frozen treat transport device. Then taped a long piece of cardboard to the heat shield directly above the marker and resting against the point of the marker. I wiggled the cardboard a little to make a horizontal line where the swingarm was at full extension. Wiggled at weight of just the bike and then with me on it. Then just measure your lines. I used the tie wraps on the forks method to do the front. At max preload front and rear i got 1 1/2 inches which i believe is about 45mm. I guess i gotta find some new springs to get it to 30mm that i've seen recommended in several different spots. I weigh 250 lbs.










Hope i made pictures appear!?

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post #2 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 02:21 PM Thread Starter
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Damn!!!

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post #3 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 02:41 PM
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Nice work. I was wondering what a "frozen treat transport device" was.

You got friends here. Some of them want to be really good friends though.

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post #4 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 02:45 PM
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that's great. Duct tape & Sharpies rule!

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post #5 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 02:52 PM
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welcome and cool!

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post #6 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 03:24 PM
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Duct tape and tie wraps - priceless!!! My tie wraps on the fork tubes never come off, this way I can tell how much travel is being used when I ride.

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post #7 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Duct tape and tie wraps - priceless!!! My tie wraps on the fork tubes never come off, this way I can tell how much travel is being used when I ride.
If you do that you can scratch the stanchion with the dirt and grit that will be trapped by the tie.

The best way to do this is with a black dry erase marker. Just put a line up to the dust wiper, and you're done. The other plus is you can't blow the strap or o-ring past the actual max travel on a big hit.

For sag I'm planning a grid on the wall, and a transfer of the laser guide from my circular saw.

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post #8 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
Duct tape and tie wraps - priceless!!! My tie wraps on the fork tubes never come off, this way I can tell how much travel is being used when I ride.

mee too

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post #9 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 05:42 PM
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Tie wraps add enough weight that it effects my cornering. I found some carbon fiber ones though.

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post #10 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 05:48 PM
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Tie wraps add enough weight that it effects my cornering. I found some carbon fiber ones though.
That's a good thing, I hear you were riding too fast and way over your head!

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post #11 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 06:04 PM
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That's a good thing, I hear you were riding too fast and way over your head!
The only way I can be "over my head" is for my ass to be.....


nevermind.

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post #12 of 87 Old 01-24-2007, 06:23 PM
 
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Welcome Carl. I don't really have people to help me check sag either so I understand why you did this.

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post #13 of 87 Old 01-25-2007, 06:20 AM
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Wile-E-Carl, Supergenius. OK, practical genius. Very good idea. And by the way, welcome home.

The suspention is the most neglected aspect of the 919. Early bikes wallowed thru turns with the set up that came out of the box, so it was taken on face value that the frame was weak, and if you spent any money on upgrading your suspention, you just tossed your money away because the 919 will never be a Gixer killer. However there are a few of us that question everything, and have changed a few components like springs, and rear shock, and have come up with some very worthwile improvements on the way the 919 rides and handles. Dan Kyle told me once that the front isn't all that bad (`04). Damning praise; be that as it may. The back is simply oversprung. I got lucky and bought a used Ohlins sprung for my weight. I got it fairly cheap. That was the best money I've spent on this bike. However, I think if the rear spring was changed, the stock shock would do quite well. I don't even know if the rear spring can be changed out. It would certainly be trial and error but the stock spring could be carefully be ground to lighten it up to match the load it has to carry. I think there's money to be made with that idea if someone had the equipment or know how to get it right. I think it'd be pretty cool if you could send someone your shock, tell them how much you weigh. They'd grind the correct amount off your spring and your bike would ride the way it is supposed to.

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post #14 of 87 Old 01-25-2007, 06:41 AM
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I salute your genius, but you get a wag of the finger for failing to have "ACME" branding on any of the parts you used.

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post #15 of 87 Old 01-25-2007, 09:29 AM
 
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Is it possible to adjust front sag on early (02,03) 919's?

Is adjusting sag what the preload adjuster is for?
(I am out of the loop as far as suspension tuning)

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I salute your genius, but you get a wag of the finger for failing to have "ACME" branding on any of the parts you used.

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post #16 of 87 Old 01-25-2007, 09:31 AM
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Use this guide to help you: adjusting sag

It outlines the process HotCarl described (mostly) and gives specific instructions.

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post #17 of 87 Old 01-25-2007, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
Wile-E-Carl, Supergenius. OK, practical genius. Very good idea. And by the way, welcome home.

The suspention is the most neglected aspect of the 919. Early bikes wallowed thru turns with the set up that came out of the box, so it was taken on face value that the frame was weak, and if you spent any money on upgrading your suspention, you just tossed your money away because the 919 will never be a Gixer killer. However there are a few of us that question everything, and have changed a few components like springs, and rear shock, and have come up with some very worthwile improvements on the way the 919 rides and handles. Dan Kyle told me once that the front isn't all that bad (`04). Damning praise; be that as it may. The back is simply oversprung. I got lucky and bought a used Ohlins sprung for my weight. I got it fairly cheap. That was the best money I've spent on this bike. However, I think if the rear spring was changed, the stock shock would do quite well. I don't even know if the rear spring can be changed out. It would certainly be trial and error but the stock spring could be carefully be ground to lighten it up to match the load it has to carry. I think there's money to be made with that idea if someone had the equipment or know how to get it right. I think it'd be pretty cool if you could send someone your shock, tell them how much you weigh. They'd grind the correct amount off your spring and your bike would ride the way it is supposed to.

Wouldn't the shock be undersprung? The guy above couldn't get enough preload with the adjuster cranked all the way down. At about 175 lbs cranking down on the adjusters gets me in the 35mm range. Sounds like a case for stiffer springs, but then the shock wouldn't have enough damping to control it.

You can mail me your spring and I'll grind the **** out of it for you.

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post #18 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 05:01 AM
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I dont know, Nick. I wish someone with some expertice would step in and explain things. I have ground springs in firearms before with very good results. Hammer springs and trigger return springs in particular are overkill because of libility. I always figured the rear of the 919 was oversprung cuz it was meant to carry 380 lbs and rode like a hardtail. When it comes to suspention, what I don't know is alot. Maybe thats why its so interesting.

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post #19 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 05:35 AM
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Nick, I'm pretty sure Sniper is right on this one. If the shock were undersprung, it would ride too soft and even softer with a passenger. The problem is that it's meant to hold two people + gear, so it's basically a chuck of granite if you're riding passengerless.

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post #20 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 06:20 AM
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Best investment is suspension. The stock ones are usually a pos the 919 was not given high tech items. If your in 250 range you should look into a different shock a Penske would be a good option. You find them for around 500-700 and have them sprung and valved for your weight and riding style. I purchased mine from Lindemann Engineering. For the street you don't need all the bells and whistles. Though having ride height adjustment is a nice option. The other nice thing is that aftermarket shocks are rebuidable. I heard that if you have a Penske and sell your bike. If you remove the shock and send it them they will set-up for your new bike.

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post #21 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 06:33 AM
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I heard those Penske shocks love to piss hydraulic fluid all over the rear wheel!!!

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post #22 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by MisterMike View Post
I heard those Penske shocks love to piss hydraulic fluid all over the rear wheel!!!
MisterMike,

That's very good to know! Now that we know how to measure the sag for the custom spring order. Are you going to start an ohlins rear shock GB? The cost effective (~$200) option is having LE custom spring the stock shock.

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post #23 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by dream247919 View Post
MisterMike,

That's very good to know! Now that we know how to measure the sag for the custom spring order. Are you going to start an ohlins rear shock GB? The cost effective (~$200) option is having LE custom spring the stock shock.
I was waiting for TuonoR6 to reply. It was his Penske that this happened to. We were going full tilt in a series of fast sweepers. Thank god this section only had right handers. The left side of his tire was coated with fluid. Shortly there after Penske issued a recall.

I wonder how many members would be interseted in a Ohlin's shock GB???

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post #24 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 09:35 AM
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I was waiting for TuonoR6 to reply. It was his Penske that this happened to. We were going full tilt in a series of fast sweepers. Thank god this section only had right handers. The left side of his tire was coated with fluid. Shortly there after Penske issued a recall.

I wonder how many members would be interested in a Ohlin's shock GB???
Wow Tuono got very lucky and fortunately he was behind you!

I'm interested in a BG for an Ohlins RS HO 201!

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post #25 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 10:38 AM
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Spending money on the 919 suspension is like putting wallpaper in an outhouse...

The return on investment is just not there because you still end up with a mediocre handling bike due to the weak chassis & swingarm. You can sink $10k into your 919 suspension & any novice on a bone stock current 600 will still kill it.

The 919 is an incredible bike just as it is, built to enjoy the ride on, to have fun & be carefree. If you want to narrow the focus & make it a better handling machine then why don't you just buy a bike that does what you need? There are plenty of viable choices out there that don't require you to reinvent the wheel to get them up to snuff. Additionally the more purpose built bikes respond soooo much better to the suspension mods than the 919 does.

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post #26 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 11:08 AM
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600s are awesome, especially if you do 20 minute track sessions. If track riding, and quick lap times were my goal, a 600 sport bike is what I'd have.

I have no delusions of grandure. The reason I want my 919 set up correctly is because of ride comfort. If given the option, I'd much rather spend all day (on the street) on a bike with a suspention that soaks up bumps. As far as medeocre handling, I'm a mid pack novice, so it sounds like a good match up for me, and probably most of the guys here.

I bought a used Ohlins rear shock. If and when I sell the bike I'll take the Ohlins off and sell it. In the long run I'll have a 919 that rides better won't cost me anything.

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post #27 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 11:15 AM
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I'm with Sniper. If I dropped cash on rear suspension it would be so that every bump doesn't go straight from the road to my butt and spine. 'Sides, I know lots of 600cc sportbike owners who get terrified at the sight of a corner. The rider is more important than the bike.

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post #28 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
600s are awesome, especially if you do 20 minute track sessions. If track riding, and quick lap times were my goal, a 600 sport bike is what I'd have.

I have no delusions of grandure. The reason I want my 919 set up correctly is because of ride comfort. If given the option, I'd much rather spend all day (on the street) on a bike with a suspention that soaks up bumps. As far as medeocre handling, I'm a mid pack novice, so it sounds like a good match up for me, and probably most of the guys here.

I bought a used Ohlins rear shock. If and when I sell the bike I'll take the Ohlins off and sell it. In the long run I'll have a 919 that rides better won't cost me anything.
Ok, I agree. There is no doubt about it that an Ohlins unit on the rear (or re-working the front etc...) GREATLY alleviates the rough ride of the 919 & aids in compliancy so I firmly understand your reasoning in that regard & for that purpose it is money well spent.

If your goal is to improve the handling to make the bike more "sporty" as in capable or precise in terms of road holding & feedback then suspension mods are just not a good investment on this particular bike.

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post #29 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 12:08 PM
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I am also not advocating spending a bunch of dough on this bike. Everytime I question the next frivelous mod group buy, I get the riot act read to me.

Keeping costs down is the reason I keep bring up my cornball idea of grinding the rear spring. I know it's a goofy idea, but it'd would work. It'd be an improvement and it wouldn't cost anything . Yeah, the Ohlins rear shock was overkill, but in my case, it was realitivly cheap, quick, and I know it's right.

The stock shock is probably ok for a general purpose bike, but the spring is wrong. Getting the 919 sprung correctly would be all most of us need. I also wonder how hard it would be to make a home made shock press out of 2 steel plates and 4 pieces of threaded rod. LDH, can you post a pic of your "store bought" contraption?

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post #30 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 12:11 PM
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Dan Kyle actually made this one.


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post #31 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 12:13 PM
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BTW You gonna be at the Indy Dealer Expo?

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post #32 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 12:14 PM
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Hmmm... Didn't I just see that photo on another site?

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post #33 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 12:25 PM
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I'll be in Indy, but unfortunatly, I'll be in Ol Brownie pulling double trailers to the 81st Street UPS hub. No bike show for me, unless you have a spare ticket, Old Buddy, Old Pal....

Can the rear spring on the 919 be swapped out? Where do you go to get a replacement? What kind of price would we be looking at?

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post #34 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 12:29 PM
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Ah yes the infamous why is my foot slipping off the peg. Luckily it started to feel weird going through the second right hander. Problem was fixed after national recall started by me calling Penske. Even with respring for your weight would a hell alot better than stock. You don't need to spend 900-1500 on a shock to be happy on a street bike.

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post #35 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 12:36 PM
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Yes the spring can be changed with a variety of aftermarket springs or even possiby one that works from another model OEM shock that most of us have laying around the shops. The biggest issue (after the correct rate) is getting a spring that is the proper length since the collar is not adjustable on the OEM shock & of course making sure the spring rate & coils are together correct to prevent binding of the spring itself under load.

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post #36 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 12:42 PM
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Completely blew me off about the free ticket. I see how you are. lol

Thanks for the input.

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post #37 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 12:44 PM
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hehe If I had one I would gladly let you have it, but since it is not open to the public you have to register in advance & all that jazz

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post #38 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
I dont know, Nick. I wish someone with some expertice would step in and explain things. I have ground springs in firearms before with very good results. Hammer springs and trigger return springs in particular are overkill because of libility. I always figured the rear of the 919 was oversprung cuz it was meant to carry 380 lbs and rode like a hardtail. When it comes to suspention, what I don't know is alot. Maybe thats why its so interesting.

I don't know a thing about grinding springs so I'll just leave that alone. But I still think the spring is too soft. Imagine if the rear spring was so stiff that it couldn't be compressed. Our guy would get zero sag because the spring wouldn't move when he sat on the bike. Now if you replaced the spring with one that came out of an ink pen, the rear suspension would bottom out when he sat on it giving a sag measurement of whatever the total travel is. So, if your dynamic sag measurement is too high and the preload is cranked all the way down I would say you need a stiffer spring.

Or maybe I'm just full of it.

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post #39 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 01:13 PM
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The rear spring on the 919 is oversprung & the front is undersprung. The premise is very simple & common on all Japanese sportbikes for nearly 20 years (with the exception of the new R6 & the new GSXR750). These bikes are designed to haul two people weighing up to 360-380lbs. The rear has to be sprung to accomodate that weight & if you have that much weight on the back of the bike then it takes more load off the front since a good portion of that weight is behind the centerline of the rear axle.

The 919 actually handles pretty damn good with a passenger. I mean I won't say it handles better cause more weight is never a better thing, but I will say its overall road manners are greatly smoothed out by the additional weight of a passenger. Riding solo the spring is too stiff & will about jar your teeth out even on small bumps or road imperfections especially at street legal speeds. At a faster pace more force is applied to the rear suspension & it works much better than it does at slower speeds. Compare this to the previous FZ1 model & it is the exact opposite. The FZ1 has a softer more compliant ride at slower speeds, but wallows & won't hold a line when you up the pace. The FZ1 is also sprung too stiff in the rear, but is still in a better overall range for slower commuter type riding than the 919 is etc...

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post #40 of 87 Old 01-26-2007, 01:34 PM
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If it's too stiff, why can't average weight riders get a proper amount of sag out of it?

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