BRAKES ???? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 40 Old 10-02-2010, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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BRAKES ????

Does the 929 and 954 have the same brake calipers? Doing a front end swap

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post #2 of 40 Old 10-02-2010, 07:54 PM
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same calipers, different piston size.
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post #3 of 40 Old 10-02-2010, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajboulet View Post
Does the 929 and 954 have the same brake calipers? Doing a front end swap
Can't guarantee they will have the same part numbers but they will bolt up and connect to the lines. The rest is up to you.

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post #4 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehirt View Post
same calipers, different piston size.
dave
Rotor diameter same, correct ?
Same caliper body re mounting and rotor match, correct ?
You're saying the piston sizes changed, do you know what the evolution was in this regard ?
What do you know about whatever the change in the master cylinders were as a result of the caliper piston changes?
I'm more than casually interested, I thought the calipers and master were common right across the 928 & 954 run, and I'm toying with idea of putting such parts on my 919 as brake upgrade.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that would like to hear more from you on the above.

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post #5 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 10:02 AM
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The 919 uses 296mm rotors, 929 uses 310mm rotors, and the 954 uses 330mm. It makes no difference to the calipers however, because Nissin uses the same general pattern for the mounts and E center, so the only differences are the piston diameters and the location of the caliper mounts on the forks. I know this because I fit up a pair of CBR600 calipers (310mm rotors) I got off Ebay for a song while swapping out pads and replacing the front tire, and they dropped right into place. Didn't leave them on -- the 919's brakes are quite adequate for the street for a braking minimalist like me and the calipers were earmarked for a door (as it were) prize on one of my periodic rides.

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post #6 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 12:04 PM
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Just curious how noticeable of a difference there was by changing to a caliper of a different piston size.......

also....... if its the same caliper with a different piston ----- do you use 929 or 954 pads? or can you use the same 919 pad.

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post #7 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
The 919 uses 296mm rotors, 929 uses 310mm rotors, and the 954 uses 330mm. It makes no difference to the calipers however, because Nissin uses the same general pattern for the mounts and E center, so the only differences are the piston diameters and the location of the caliper mounts on the forks. I know this because I fit up a pair of CBR600 calipers (310mm rotors) I got off Ebay for a song while swapping out pads and replacing the front tire, and they dropped right into place. Didn't leave them on -- the 919's brakes are quite adequate for the street for a braking minimalist like me and the calipers were earmarked for a door (as it were) prize on one of my periodic rides.

Rob
Rob,

Thanks for chiming in, your input is highly valued.
I bit more of your time please.

My intent is to stay with either my already reworked 919 front end, or possibly go to a reworked 4Fi front end (purely to get the low speed compression adjuster that they have).

I'm toying with 929 calipers and rotors, or 954 calipers and rotors, or maybe even 954 calipers on 929 rotors - final decision being partially E Bay dependent.

F4i calipers are a simple bolt on, regardless of whether it's a 919 or F4i fork legs, I'm straight on this point.

But I get the feeling from your comments above, that the caliper mounting lugs and tapped holes on 919/F4i legs, while in the same pattern for a 929 or 954 caliper, are likely not correctly positioned on the fork leg to be able use 929 or 954 rotors.

Comments please.

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post #8 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 01:06 PM
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I tried this with RC51 calipers in which I hold the highest regard for non-radial calipers as I still consider them the best I have ever used. I could not get them to work on the 919 satisfactorily

919.org brakes mod page

Granted I didn't spend a lot of time on the project either, but since then I have had a couple 919 owners tell me they did get the RC calipers to work on the 919 by using the master cylinder that originally came on the RC51 for those calipers as well.

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post #9 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
......the calipers were earmarked for a door (as it were) prize on one of my periodic rides.

Rob
Man, I miss your periodic rides....at least the ones I rode on GMR. Fun Times!

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post #10 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 05:25 PM
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the 919 has caliper pistons sized 30mm and 27 mm and a M/C of 14mm.
a SP1 RC51 has caliper piston sized 34mm and 32mm and a M/C of 19mm
a SP2 RC51 has caliper pistons sized 32mm and 30mm with a M/C of 17.5

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post #11 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Rob,

Thanks for chiming in, your input is highly valued.
I bit more of your time please.

My intent is to stay with either my already reworked 919 front end, or possibly go to a reworked 4Fi front end (purely to get the low speed compression adjuster that they have).

I'm toying with 929 calipers and rotors, or 954 calipers and rotors, or maybe even 954 calipers on 929 rotors - final decision being partially E Bay dependent.
With the 919 forks you are restricted to 296mm rotors of whatever description. The F4i forks are configured for 310mm rotors, so the 954 calipers / 929 rotors Are a viable option. You will probably need to shim the calipers to get the centers right (different centers for the F4i triple clamps throw a monkey wrench into the "bolt it up and go" equation), though I have no idea how much and in which direction. I suspect the information is buried somewhere in the WT archives.
Quote:
F4i calipers are a simple bolt on, regardless of whether it's a 919 or F4i fork legs, I'm straight on this point.

But I get the feeling from your comments above, that the caliper mounting lugs and tapped holes on 919/F4i legs, while in the same pattern for a 929 or 954 caliper, are likely not correctly positioned on the fork leg to be able use 929 or 954 rotors.
I believe XRcajun did a swap for larger rotors ... hold on a moment while I do a search.

Found it. https://www.wristtwisters.com/f94/ove...9-a-10824.html there is a subsequent thread showing what he came up with: https://www.wristtwisters.com/f94/wil...9-a-10545.html that pretty well outlines what needs doing for a larger rotor swap. Go to post # 30 for a picture of the adapters.

Rob

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post #12 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post

But I get the feeling from your comments above, that the caliper mounting lugs and tapped holes on 919/F4i legs, while in the same pattern for a 929 or 954 caliper, are likely not correctly positioned on the fork leg to be able use 929 or 954 rotors.

Comments please.
Mcromo, I would not go with f4i forks just for the comp adjustment, unless you want to spend $150 more and get much better Ktech adjusters.

Attachment 15310

stock f4i cone type orifice valve has a tricky usability problem. Changes made early in the range account for most of the adjustment, while almost nothing is gained at the end of the range. Basically 2 settings: open and closed. They are just there for Honda to claim "comp adjustment" option as a sales pitch. KTech's parabolic valve changes are much more linearized. Much more controlled changes.

Attachment 15311


As far as 929/954 rotors go: you can make them fork with some custom brackets to push you calipers further out on f4i/919 forks to clear 929/954 rotors.
BUT ..............it's really not worth the effort.

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post #13 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
The F4i forks are configured for 310mm rotors,
Rob
Rob, f4i rotors are the same size as 919, 296mm

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post #14 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:12 PM
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no need to shim anything if you go to f4i forks.
Here is my 919 when I had f4i front end, stock 919 calipers rotors, rim, no mods




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post #15 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondad View Post
the 919 has caliper pistons sized 30mm and 27 mm and a M/C of 14mm.
a SP1 RC51 has caliper piston sized 34mm and 32mm and a M/C of 19mm
a SP2 RC51 has caliper pistons sized 32mm and 30mm with a M/C of 17.5
Let me see if I'm following correct here sir.......

IF you do switch to a different caliper on the 919 --- i/e 929, 954, RC51..... with a different piston size in the caliper..... I'm getting that you also need to make sure that your master cylinder is also a compatible match?

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post #16 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
Let me see if I'm following correct here sir.......

IF you do switch to a different caliper on the 919 --- i/e 929, 954, RC51..... with a different piston size in the caliper..... I'm getting that you also need to make sure that your master cylinder is also a compatible match?
that would help

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post #17 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:21 PM
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zaq123....... So, did you end up installing the Ktech adjusters on your F4I forks?

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post #18 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
zaq123....... So, did you end up installing the Ktech adjusters on your F4I forks?
I was one click away from ordering them, then I said "RC51 front end, here I come".

IMO for $150 they are very nice addition if you want to tune the chit out of your front end

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post #19 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
Mcromo, I would not go with f4i forks just for the comp adjustment, unless you want to spend $150 more and get much better Ktech adjusters.

Attachment 15310

stock f4i cone type orifice valve has a tricky usability problem. Changes made early in the range account for most of the adjustment, while almost nothing is gained at the end of the range. Basically 2 settings: open and closed. They are just there for Honda to claim "comp adjustment" option as a sales pitch. KTech's parabolic valve changes are much more linearized. Much more controlled changes.

Attachment 15311


As far as 929/954 rotors go: you can make them fork with some custom brackets to push you calipers further out on f4i/919 forks to clear 929/954 rotors.
BUT ..............it's really not worth the effort.
Thanks zaq123,

Unsaid was that should I go to the F4i forks, they'd be totally redone internally, aftermarket lo speed compression adjuster included.

About the larger rotors, needing adaptors to move out the calipers is what I was expecting to hear.

McTavish McRomo

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post #20 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
BUT ..............it's really not worth the effort.

This just summed up almost every single mod thread on the forum pertaining to the 919

Never has a better street bike been so "great right out of the crate"

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post #21 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:41 PM
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post #22 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
With the 919 forks you are restricted to 296mm rotors of whatever description. The F4i forks are configured for 310mm rotors, so the 954 calipers / 929 rotors Are a viable option. You will probably need to shim the calipers to get the centers right (different centers for the F4i triple clamps throw a monkey wrench into the "bolt it up and go" equation), though I have no idea how much and in which direction. I suspect the information is buried somewhere in the WT archives.I believe XRcajun did a swap for larger rotors ... hold on a moment while I do a search.

Found it. https://www.wristtwisters.com/f94/ove...9-a-10824.html there is a subsequent thread showing what he came up with: https://www.wristtwisters.com/f94/wil...9-a-10545.html that pretty well outlines what needs doing for a larger rotor swap. Go to post # 30 for a picture of the adapters.

Rob
Thanks Rob !

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post #23 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Thanks zaq123,

Unsaid was that should I go to the F4i forks, they'd be totally redone internally, aftermarket lo speed compression adjuster included.

About the larger rotors, needing adaptors to move out the calipers is what I was expecting to hear.

McTavish McRomo
f4i forks are definitely have to be redone internally. I am not just talking about the spring, which is very soft btw, (0.66kg, very soft) but the shim stack. F4i has very very light tapered stack
I did install RT gold valves on my f4i. If I'd do f4i or 919 forks again, I would just rework stock valves or did Ohlins UES kit, only if I could find one really cheap, under $150.

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post #24 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
This just summed up almost every single mod thread on the forum pertaining to the 919

Never has a better street bike been so "great right out of the crate"
c'mon, they are all ""great right out of the crate" bikes these days.
But than again, suspension work is just like boob job, makes it so much more enjoyable to ride. You know what I mean

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post #25 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
c'mon, they are all ""great right out of the crate" bikes these days.
But than again, suspension work is just like boob job, makes it so much more enjoyable to ride

Meh... Most sportbikes require a ton of work to get them up to proper handling standards. Most notably the new Ducati's superbikes not only do they need new suspension they need a different triple clamp with an altered offset to keep them from running wide out of the turns. The new S1000RR has more motor than anyone can ever dream of in a production bike and some of the worst suspension parts I have ever had to ride on. Ask most S1000RR owners though and they will tell you it is the best bike ever and needs nothing. Add a 30mm Cartridge Kit to that bike, a quality shock and a 26mm offset triple clamp and for the first time ever IMO you truly have a 1000cc bike that handles like a 600.

Adding all that suspension to the 919 gets you a compliant ride, but doesn't give you the handling aspect that a sportbike should. In fact nothing does. You just have to love the 919 for what it is. Modifying it is fun, but the more you do to it the less the sum of all the installed parts becomes.

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post #26 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
BUT ..............it's really not worth the effort.

This just summed up almost every single mod thread on the forum pertaining to the 919

Never has a better street bike been so "great right out of the crate"
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
c'mon, they are all ""great right out of the crate" bikes these days.
But than again, suspension work is just like boob job, makes it so much more enjoyable to ride. You know what I mean
Whether it's worth the effort depends on what you intend to gain from doing the mods. I am doing some mods to gain knowledge of how some of the systems of the bike work. I'm also doing some to make the bike more aesthetically pleasing, not that it isn't already a nice looking bike. But I'm not a fan of some of the finishes and colors chosen. So I'm doing some strictly cosmetic mods.

Preschool - Kawasaki 100 enduro
Grade School - Honda CB 125
High School - Honda 400 Hawk
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Real life - Honda 919
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post #27 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post

Adding all that suspension to the 919 gets you a compliant ride, but doesn't give you the handling aspect that a sportbike should. In fact nothing does. You just have to love the 919 for what it is. Modifying it is fun, but the more you do to it the less the sum of all the installed parts becomes.

Obviously it's not the R bike, suspension or engine. But nobody here says you need to go all out with it like you'd do with R track bike.
This is the reason I couldn't justify spending almost $1k on the shock, I just had mine reworked for under $300 and I had maybe $400 in my f4i forks (including forks themselves).
Like I said above, 919 doesn't even need new valves but just the simple proper shim stack should give you a lot to notice the difference.

919 doesn't need much: for under $1k you can make it so much more fun.

PS. Mcromo, you mod you suspension, right. Would you do it again or was it all wasted time/money?

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post #28 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 07:36 PM
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Opinions vary, but as a professional test rider I have yet to experience a revalved OEM shock that is worth the money it cost to perform the mod.

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post #29 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
Opinions vary, but as a professional test rider I have yet to experience a revalved OEM shock that is worth the money it cost to perform the mod.
It wasn't just revalved:
I got '07 919 shock with reb adjustment (mine was 03 shock), revalved, new Huuuge reservoir with comp adjustment, proper and much higher quality spring for my weight. Again, no match to Ohlins/Penske, but it was $300 well spent (including the shock)

I wish you would be closer, I'd beg you to test ride my 919


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post #30 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 08:10 PM
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I would love that opportunity. I rarely pass up any chance to learn more or experience new things when it comes to sportbikes

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post #31 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
Obviously it's not the R bike, suspension or engine. But nobody here says you need to go all out with it like you'd do with R track bike.
This is the reason I couldn't justify spending almost $1k on the shock, I just had mine reworked for under $300 and I had maybe $400 in my f4i forks (including forks themselves).
Like I said above, 919 doesn't even need new valves but just the simple proper shim stack should give you a lot to notice the difference.

919 doesn't need much: for under $1k you can make it so much more fun.

PS. Mcromo, you mod you suspension, right. Would you do it again or was it all wasted time/money?
It was worth every penny.
If I was to do it again, I'd use F4i forks as the flatform for the build, and buy a 3 way rear right off. ( I bought a Penkse 2 way and had it converted)
I rode three seasons on stock 05 before doing the changes. It reminded me of how my 73 CB750 morphed with the Dunlop K81s, the Koni rear shocks, and real oil instead of fish oil in in the forks. It was day and night. Even my wife commented about how much more stable the passenger post felt after the work.

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post #32 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
I would love that opportunity. I rarely pass up any chance to learn more or experience new things when it comes to sportbikes
Calgary ?

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post #33 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 08:16 PM
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Closest I get to there would be Whistler/Blackcomb LOL

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post #34 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 08:36 PM
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Closest I get to there would be Whistler/Blackcomb LOL
The snow is better elsewhere, but it is tough to beat the W/B scene.

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post #35 of 40 Old 10-03-2010, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
Rob, f4i rotors are the same size as 919, 296mm
You are correct, sir. Mea culpa. Sometimes it's hard to keep all the minuitae straight. At least it really makes things easier conversion wise.

Regardless of the necessity of modifying something I do agree that doing a modification is one of the best ways to learn how any system works -- though sometimes the lesson learned aren't the ones you were hoping for. Useful information nonetheless.

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
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post #36 of 40 Old 10-04-2010, 05:56 AM
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Think you and LDH pretty much summed it up....... Yep, you can swap rotors, calipers & m/c's, pick up Trick Brembo m/c's etc... In the end.....the 919 in it's fairly stock form does an excellent job. Steel lines, good pads, and some good fluid get you a loong way.

Hummmmmm, but rc51 calipers would be soooo cool. Ha!

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post #37 of 40 Old 10-29-2010, 08:29 PM
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Aftermarket F4/i Low Speed Compression Adjusters

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Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
Mcromo, I would not go with f4i forks just for the comp adjustment, unless you want to spend $150 more and get much better Ktech adjusters.

Attachment 15310

stock f4i cone type orifice valve has a tricky usability problem. Changes made early in the range account for most of the adjustment, while almost nothing is gained at the end of the range. Basically 2 settings: open and closed. They are just there for Honda to claim "comp adjustment" option as a sales pitch. KTech's parabolic valve changes are much more linearized. Much more controlled changes.

Attachment 15311


As far as 929/954 rotors go: you can make them fork with some custom brackets to push you calipers further out on f4i/919 forks to clear 929/954 rotors.
BUT ..............it's really not worth the effort.
zaq123
Thanks for bringing these forward to all.
I later found them on the web, they are UK based.
I had some back and forth with the chassis guy I go to.
He has used them and says they are excellent, very accurate for race level adjustment needs.
It turns out that Traxxion makes a special needle that fits into the Honda housing for a fraction of the price of the K-Techs. Seeing as I am not racing on racing tires, and want a broad range of setting for street to track days, we agreed that the broader spectrum Traxxion needle would not only be adequate, but more practical, as well as being way cheaper. If it was to be a race build, I'd have gone with a K-Tech.

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post #38 of 40 Old 10-29-2010, 09:10 PM
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Damn you all.....yet another reason to spend money......

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post #39 of 40 Old 10-30-2010, 05:14 AM
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Orient Express

US dealer for K-tech

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post #40 of 40 Old 10-30-2010, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
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Orient Express

US dealer for K-tech
Thanks for that.
Good to know.

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