919 Kyle Racing Suspension - Wrist Twisters
 9Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,473
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

919 Kyle Racing Suspension

There is a lot more to come on this thread as we are documenting and entire shock rebuild as well as fork rework, but I figured some of you might be interested to see the actual rate of the OEM 919 fork spring.

In truth the spring is not as non-linear as this graph would make it appear. The lightness of the spring combined with the length of it causes it to move a little more than we would like it to and of course the massive sensitivity level of the spring rater we use feels everything. Splitting the difference it would appear the rate of the OEM springs is somewhere around 7.3Nm


LDH is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 11:53 AM
SeŮor Calamares
 
applespeed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 513
Blog Entries: 1
Rep Power: 1
 
oooooh how exciting. subscribed....

applespeed is offline  
post #3 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 12:17 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,772
Rep Power: 1
 
wow, super light!

subscribed as well!

Pvster is offline  
post #4 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 04:38 PM
rmb
Let's go!
 
rmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sussex Couty NJ
Posts: 7,659
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 9

Wow, .744kg is very light.

rmb is offline  
post #5 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 04:42 PM
Papa Bear
 
Tsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Long Island New York
Posts: 227
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 1

SWEEET!!!!

Tsmith is offline  
post #6 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 05:17 PM
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
beefsalad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 2,777
Blog Entries: 51
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Donation 
Total Awards: 1

shock rebuild...of the stocker?

if you love your motorcycle, set it free.. if it comes back and hits you.. you highsided
beefsalad is offline  
post #7 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,473
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
shock rebuild...of the stocker?

Of course not, the stock shock isn't worth its weight as a boat anchor...

We are going to show a complete service of an Ohlins shock

LDH is offline  
post #8 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 06:46 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,991
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
There is a lot more to come on this thread as we are documenting and entire shock rebuild as well as fork rework, but I figured some of you might be interested to see the actual rate of the OEM 919 fork spring.

In truth the spring is not as non-linear as this graph would make it appear. The lightness of the spring combined with the length of it causes it to move a little more than we would like it to and of course the massive sensitivity level of the spring rater we use feels everything. Splitting the difference it would appear the rate of the OEM springs is somewhere around 7.3Nm

LDH,

Thank you very very much for the test and the posting of the results.
For those not aware, N/mm X .102 - kg/mm.
So these puppies are coming in at around 0.745 kg/mm equivalent.
I'm curious as to how you rig up for such a test ?
Got time for a brief description ?
Again, big thanks !
This is first quantitative 919 OEM stock spring testing I have ever come across or heard of.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #9 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 06:50 PM
Pilus Posterior
 
AllanB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,101
Blog Entries: 1
Rep Power: 1
 
That explains the nose dive. Looks like they are set up for a 60kg rider!

AllanB is offline  
post #10 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 07:01 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,991
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllanB View Post
That explains the nose dive. Looks like they are set up for a 60kg rider!
Actually, I think they sprung the front for Moon Riding and the rear for Mars Riding.
Hmmmmm, very interesting design basis.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #11 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 07:08 PM Thread Starter
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,473
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

Actually what NOBODY seems to get about Honda motorcycles (and others) is the simplest concept to grasp... The rear is oversprung to carry 2 people and if you have that much weight on the back of the bike then the front is going to be very light under normal cruise conditions. It really is that basic guys. I have never been able to fathom all the people that post on these forums saying the bikes is made for this weight rider or that weight rider. It's designed to carry the max load rating of the bike period.

LDH is offline  
post #12 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 07:17 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,991
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
Actually what NOBODY seems to get about Honda motorcycles (and others) is the simplest concept to grasp... The rear is oversprung to carry 2 people and if you have that much weight on the back of the bike then the front is going to be very light under normal cruise conditions. It really is that basic guys. I have never been able to fathom all the people that post on these forums saying the bikes is made for this weight rider or that weight rider. It's designed to carry the max load rating of the bike period.
Note how they started with 2 up springing at the back, then later went to more or less solo springing at the back, and always had a front mush setup.
Classic old school UJM setups for sure.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #13 of 248 Old 03-28-2011, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,473
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

I won't beleaguer the fact they made the rear shock softer on later models, but what I can again tell you that few people ever mention is that the 2002 model riding solo, with less preload dialed into the shock ramp adjustment, in a true aggressive style (I.E my foot pegs are being ground off) is much more responsive and willing to be ridden hard with less protest than the later models regardless of the preload setting. It just works better for sportier riding at the expense of comfort.

LDH is offline  
post #14 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 05:51 AM
Cornicen
 
mambomonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 538
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride 
Total Awards: 1

I am very interested. I am willing to pay to get a new shock and upgraded forks, but not until I'm convinced that it's worth it. I'm 175 lbs and ride with a 100 lb passenger about 70% of the time. My '07 is my primary transport and my girlfriend rides with me a lot. I have the shock and forks adjusted to one click/line firmer than "standard" as shown in the manual. The bike is not difficult or uncomfortable to ride. What am I missing? A grand for a shock and another grand for upgraded forks is a lot of coin.

mambomonster is offline  
post #15 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,473
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by mambomonster View Post
I am very interested. I am willing to pay to get a new shock and upgraded forks, but not until I'm convinced that it's worth it. I'm 175 lbs and ride with a 100 lb passenger about 70% of the time. My '07 is my primary transport and my girlfriend rides with me a lot. I have the shock and forks adjusted to one click/line firmer than "standard" as shown in the manual. The bike is not difficult or uncomfortable to ride. What am I missing? A grand for a shock and another grand for upgraded forks is a lot of coin.

And I am not going to try to talk you into buying them either. You only know what you know.

LDH is offline  
post #16 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 08:29 AM
Optio
 
firedave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 963
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage
Subscribed. How's everything been going with the rebuild LDH?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2016 Honda Africa Twin
2007 Honda 919
1998 Kawi ZX9R (Sold)
firedave is offline  
post #17 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 08:31 AM Thread Starter
LDH
Test Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: by the ocean
Posts: 4,473
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Trackday Recognition Referral Award 
Total Awards: 2

Just fine, the hardest part is documenting the process LOTS of pics...

LDH is offline  
post #18 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 08:44 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,991
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
And I am not going to try to talk you into buying them either. You only know what you know.
ALWAYS listen to a guy who is not always telling you that you absolutely need this and that and have to buy it.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #19 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 08:49 AM
Cornicen
 
mambomonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 538
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride 
Total Awards: 1

I never accused LDH of being a high pressure salesman. Note two sentences in my post: "I am very interested." and "What am I missing?"

And be careful with the word ALWAYS. Every generalization is wrong.

mambomonster is offline  
post #20 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 08:59 AM
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
Sniper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 2,490
Rep Power: 1
 
So how many nm should the front spring be?

How do we get there?

This is interesting.

Sniper is offline  
post #21 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 09:00 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,991
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mambomonster View Post
I never accused LDH of being a high pressure salesman. Note two sentences in my post: "I am very interested." and "What am I missing?"

And be careful with the word ALWAYS. Every generalization is wrong.
My intent was not at all to imply that LDH is any kind of Hi P salesman, as everyone knows that if anything, the opposite holds true.

I just used your comment as an opportunity to say out loud that many a time (OK, not always) those not counseling buying something or not selling something are worth listening to as they opine and advise while having no vested interest.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #22 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 10:34 AM
Cornicen
 
mambomonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 538
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride 
Total Awards: 1

No worries mcromo. I have bought from LDH and likely will again. Too bad we can't all test ride a bike that's been resprung in order to compare.

mambomonster is offline  
post #23 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 10:50 AM
Aquilifer
 
curiousmike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Fremont, Ca
Posts: 1,264
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
but what I can again tell you that few people ever mention is that the 2002 model riding solo, with less preload dialed into the shock ramp adjustment, in a true aggressive style (I.E my foot pegs are being ground off) is much more responsive and willing to be ridden hard with less protest than the later models regardless of the preload setting. It just works better for sportier riding at the expense of comfort.
Wow. I have to digest this.

curiousmike is offline  
post #24 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 11:01 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,991
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mambomonster View Post
No worries mcromo. I have bought from LDH and likely will again. Too bad we can't all test ride a bike that's been resprung in order to compare.
Being able to switch back and forth is the best comparison. Doing a winter build and hopping on the new kit after many months of layoff (for us up here that is) is not the ideal way to compare.

This year I'm going to make a point of getting out with some of the other 9ers in Alberta. I know some want to try a track night.
rickard919 has an early 919 with a later rear shock.
Firedave is getting his front end done by Dan Kyle (I'm not sure what he has planned or has done about the rear)
I think Mr T81 is on a stock later model.
Mine's an 05 with a full front end build and a Penske rear.
Trusting we all trust each other, I'm envisioning some swapping back and forth.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #25 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 11:03 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,991
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by firedave View Post
Subscribed. How's everything been going with the rebuild LDH?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Firedave,

1
Are you one of the 9ers wanting to do at least one Track Night this year in Calgary ?
2
Are you already connected with Mr. T81 ?
And rickard919?

mcromo44 is offline  
post #26 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 11:15 AM
Princeps Prior
 
arctic954's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,816
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
I won't beleaguer the fact they made the rear shock softer on later models, but what I can again tell you that few people ever mention is that the 2002 model riding solo, with less preload dialed into the shock ramp adjustment, in a true aggressive style (I.E my foot pegs are being ground off) is much more responsive and willing to be ridden hard with less protest than the later models regardless of the preload setting. It just works better for sportier riding at the expense of comfort.
I've been saying this for a while....... my '03 with stock suspension could be pushed pretty damn hard. It never made any sense to me when people would say the bike was soft. With the stiff rear shock --- the bike also liked to turn-in quickly.

Granted....after about 70%......the rear end would wiggle/move on you pushing out of a corner, the high-speed compression at times was bone jarring, and you had to be smooth on the brakes with the softer front non-adjustable forks......

The '03 rear shock was so stiff.....that when I went with an aftermarket rear shock that was sprung for my weight...... I had to use rear ride height and drop the forks in the triples a little bit to get my quick steering back.

arctic954 is offline  
post #27 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 12:26 PM
Rich
 
RichT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 188
Rep Power: 1
 
Just a little feedback on the ohlins rear shock. I ride a 2006 919 and the rear end had a tendency to 'dance around' a little in hard corners. I bought an ohlins from LDH about a month ago, and it fixed the problem. If the money isn't an issue, I would definitely recommend the ohlins shock.

RichT is offline  
post #28 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 01:05 PM
yzarc mi os
 
Poorboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 883
Rep Power: 1
 
LDH any suggestion for an update rear on a budget that doesn't include ohlins. like how bought f4i rebuild or a penske shock? an what are you doing to the front?

Common sense. So rare it's a god damn super power.
Poorboy is offline  
post #29 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 03:11 PM
Princeps Prior
 
arctic954's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,816
Rep Power: 1
 
Ha, ha......can't wait to hear his response.


Sent from my turbo charged iPhone using Tapatalk

arctic954 is offline  
post #30 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 03:21 PM
Optio
 
firedave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 963
Rep Power: 1
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Firedave,

1
Are you one of the 9ers wanting to do at least one Track Night this year in Calgary ?
2
Are you already connected with Mr. T81 ?
And rickard919?
1 I would love to do a track day in either Edmonton or Calgary this year. Been meaning to for a while but it's sometimes hard to get the time off since summer is also my busiest time of the year.

2 So far I've only been in contact with richard919 thru PM's


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2016 Honda Africa Twin
2007 Honda 919
1998 Kawi ZX9R (Sold)
firedave is offline  
post #31 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 03:29 PM
Pilus Posterior
 
AllanB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,101
Blog Entries: 1
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poorboy View Post
LDH any suggestion for an update rear on a budget that doesn't include ohlins. like how bought f4i rebuild or a penske shock? an what are you doing to the front?
Ditto - I wonder if one of the new Ohlins 'budget' shocks is adaptable for the 9er. They used to produce a cheaper one without the remote canister but it has been dumped from the line-up.

A search for 919 or Honda Hornet 900 rear shocks brings up a interesting number of options - just unsure of unknown brands.

AllanB is offline  
post #32 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 04:28 PM
Cornicen
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Henderson, NV
Posts: 596
Rep Power: 1
 
I'm no racer, but, the Ohlins rear I bought used from a member on here kept me from selling my 07. If I could get a front suspension setup that would be improved, I'm very interested in it. I consider a safety issue to have the suspension performance to be as good as one can afford to make it.

Blackheart is offline  
post #33 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 04:43 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,991
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackheart View Post
I'm no racer, but, the Ohlins rear I bought used from a member on here kept me from selling my 07. If I could get a front suspension setup that would be improved, I'm very interested in it. I consider a safety issue to have the suspension performance to be as good as one can afford to make it.
Rest assured, a night to day type change to the front is an easy do by those knowing what they are doing with the internals. No matter what gets done, it will still be a high stiction front fork, but much can be done with the stockers. I wonder what DK and LDH are cooking up re the front, be it reworking stock internals with Ohlins bits and/or maybe even trying some cartridge that is suitable and can be stuffed in. It will be very interesting to see.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #34 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 06:35 PM
rmb
Let's go!
 
rmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sussex Couty NJ
Posts: 7,659
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
Just fine, the hardest part is documenting the process LOTS of pics...
Can't wait, looking forward to them, and thanks.

rmb is offline  
post #35 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 08:38 PM
The Cripple
 
Pvster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 8,772
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
I won't beleaguer the fact they made the rear shock softer on later models, but what I can again tell you that few people ever mention is that the 2002 model riding solo, with less preload dialed into the shock ramp adjustment, in a true aggressive style (I.E my foot pegs are being ground off) is much more responsive and willing to be ridden hard with less protest than the later models regardless of the preload setting. It just works better for sportier riding at the expense of comfort.
i'm inclined to agree with LDH here as per my experiences. the shock on my 02 is stiff as all hell, but man i could push it through a corner like no tomorrow, it just stayed planted. currently running an 04+ shock and have been for a quite a while.... i've noticed that while i'm (much) more comfortable on the 919 when slabbing it or over bumps in general when in the twisties, i dont corner as well. even with the adjustment dialed in the hardest and preload cranked up a notch or two, the rear end would dance on me as i braked hard entering and throttling hard out of a corner. not too noticible on the wider sweepers but i notice it most in the 30mph and less sweepers/tight arcs/hair pen turns.

Pvster is offline  
post #36 of 248 Old 03-29-2011, 08:55 PM
Cornicen
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Henderson, NV
Posts: 596
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I wonder what DK and LDH are cooking up re the front, be it reworking stock internals with Ohlins bits and/or maybe even trying some cartridge that is suitable and can be stuffed in. It will be very interesting to see.
I'll let you know how it performs, as I will be one of the first in line for it! :001_smile:

Blackheart is offline  
post #37 of 248 Old 03-30-2011, 04:49 PM
rmb
Let's go!
 
rmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sussex Couty NJ
Posts: 7,659
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 9

LDH, thanks to you and DK for this, I'm sure all of the questions I've asked so far will be answered here.

rmb is offline  
post #38 of 248 Old 03-30-2011, 06:11 PM
Pilus Posterior
 
AllanB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,101
Blog Entries: 1
Rep Power: 1
 
Interested in the thread as I ordered some Ohlins front springs from my Ohlins man in New Zealand a bit over a week ago. He's waiting on some details from me before sending them down in case he needs to alter the spacer. Time to jack up the front with one of the suggestions on WT!

I fear though if the front gets tidier the back will appear worse! LOTTO ticket time!

AllanB is offline  
post #39 of 248 Old 03-30-2011, 06:19 PM
Princeps Prior
 
arctic954's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,816
Rep Power: 1
 
LOL.....I did the rear first....... The front then became painfully obvious!

arctic954 is offline  
post #40 of 248 Old 03-30-2011, 06:24 PM
rmb
Let's go!
 
rmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sussex Couty NJ
Posts: 7,659
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
LOL.....I did the rear first....... The front then became painfully obvious!
+1, got a good deal on an Ohlins shock and it made the front that much worse. I can't wait to see what LDH and DK come up with. I've spoken with DK and LDH about this, ready to buy the parts when they've completed their analysis.
Can't wait...

rmb is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome