919 F3 Front Wheel Swap, Exact Dimensions of Spacers Inside - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 26 Old 01-16-2015, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
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919 F3 Front Wheel Swap, Exact Dimensions of Spacers Inside

EDIT FOR LOCOCNC - Final document available here, under the 919 folder: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ra9j3gn4c...L4JuwuBKa?dl=0 (~g00gl3it)

I am starting this thread because I am perfecting the centering of my F3 wheel on my 2004 919.
I got the bike with this wheel on it (and the 900rr rear). However upon examining the spacers I feel it was not very well done.
So... I took the time to measure everything and have come up with the following drawing for those interested;
Please note, the dimensions are subject to change later in the thread as I make the custom size spacers and check centering. [drawing removed as requested by OP - see attached file above]

Also note that I have arrived at making 4mm spacers for the brake calipers. This is based on the outside to outside difference of the stock 919 vs the F3 rotor width measurement.

If anyone has measured anything show in the above picture that differs from what I have shown, please post it to this thread.

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post #2 of 26 Old 01-16-2015, 12:20 PM
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I'm not this technically inclined. But would love to get some proper spacers as well if you're running extra. I currently have a mashup on F3 and 919 spacers currently. Also washers to center up the brake calipers.
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post #3 of 26 Old 01-16-2015, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
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Two things that would help make this more accurate (in theory).
#1, what is the intended stackup of bearings and center spacer on the F3 and 919. When I stacked the bearings I got from all-balls and the spacer I got between 113.84 and 113.85. This is with the bearings measuring 11.96mm each. I know that the nominal value is 12mm for the bearing widths. So, a little reverse engineering and I suspect that the intended stackup here on the F3 is 114mm nominal. Would be nice to confirm this.
#2 What is the nominal designed width between inside of the forks on the 919? My measurements varied between 164.4 and 164.64mm. This makes me suspect that the nominal was 164.5mm. Once again, would be nice to confirm.

What is interesting is how nice and round the numbers become on the spacers when we reverse engineer to try and arrive at a nominal dimension. See below [drawing removed as requested by OP - see attached file above]

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post #4 of 26 Old 01-16-2015, 01:49 PM
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When you nail this down, let me know. I would love to put a copy of this in the dropbox folder.

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post #5 of 26 Old 01-16-2015, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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Now lets look at tolerances that were likely applied to this design. The bearings are ABEC3 (claimed from all-balls). That means that the spec should be 12mm wide +0 -0,0127. This is interesting because my calipers are only precise to that same number (0.0005"). The fact I measured 11,96 means they may be under spec if indeed made to ABEC3 spec's (should have been 11,9873 min). HOWEVER, I am sure some of you are out there screeming about splitting hairs (one RCH?)

I am however pretty confident that the upper bound of the stack will NEVER exceed the 114mm reverse engineered width.
Typical tolerance that would be expected from a manufacturing company on something like the spacer should be no more than 0.005". Given it's intention to not let the bearings come too close together you don't want the thing too short. So I suspect mine may actually be under spec, but appears to not allow the bearing on the LH side bind (you always fully seat the R.H. Bearing and only push L.H. in to center spacer)
So, Let's call that stack 114mm -0, -0.006" (0,1524)
Given I have actually measured my stack at 113.84, this is pretty darn close to being at the bottom end of the expected tolerance zone (0.003") and likely a result of the "squishing" of the spacer when the bolt is torqued the numerous times it has been in it's life.

Therefore as it stands right now I intend to make my R.H. spacer 8,75mm +0,1 -0 to cover the range of maximum material conditions to my emperically measured stackup. Alternatively a one-piece R.H. spacer would be 25,25mm +0,1 -0

The whole point of the above is to get the wheel centered by finding the virtual centerline of the wheel, then getting the R.H. stack correct. I believe I have no found some pretty good numbers to go by.

Should get wheel centered within 0,1mm to the theoretical center. Which is about 10x what is probably necessary.

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post #6 of 26 Old 01-19-2015, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
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OK, so didn't notice that the F3 wheel is NOT symmetrical left to right. There is a 6mm difference (or a 3mm centerline offset.)
Will update the drawing tomorrow and have the spacers made.

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post #7 of 26 Old 01-19-2015, 06:01 PM
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The clutch side spacer has no effect on the centering of the wheel, it's there to make sure there is enough axle in the fork clamp/pinch area. I would focus on the brake side spacer.

I used a VFR spacer and a rear axle washer on the brake side. I sanded the washer a little bit, but it was very close as is. I then used one of the other spacers to get the right amount of axle in the fork clamp area(doesn't have to be exact). I then ordered four 2.5MM spacers (I think) and longer bolts for the calipers.

Went together easier than I thought. The key is the brake side spacer.

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post #8 of 26 Old 01-19-2015, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, I know the brake side spacer is the most important. The only reason to get the clutch side one the right length is to the axle pokes thru the correct amount (line on the axle is flush with the fork on clutch side (outside). I also tested my 4mm spacer dimensions tonight and mocked up the final dimensions of my spacers and everything aligns and centers perfectly.

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post #9 of 26 Old 01-19-2015, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lococnc View Post
Yes, I know the brake side spacer is the most important. The only reason to get the clutch side one the right length is to the axle pokes thru the correct amount (line on the axle is flush with the fork on clutch side (outside). I also tested my 4mm spacer dimensions tonight and mocked up the final dimensions of my spacers and everything aligns and centers perfectly.
Ok, are you planning on making a bunch and selling them?

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post #10 of 26 Old 01-19-2015, 06:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Ok, are you planning on making a bunch and selling them?
No, I doubt there is much of a market for them. I will however post my final drawings here so anyone can have them made for their own use.

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post #11 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 08:19 AM
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Final copy of this is available as a .pdf in the WT Dropbox folder:

You can find it under the 919 folder.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ra9j3gn4c...L4JuwuBKa?dl=0

Thanks Lococnc!!!

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post #12 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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Here are some images for y'all




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post #13 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lococnc View Post
No, I doubt there is much of a market for them. I will however post my final drawings here so anyone can have them made for their own use.

I'll gladly take a set if you can make two of the spacers for the brakes. The local shops around here don't want to do such a small job.

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post #14 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
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I'll gladly take a set if you can make two of the spacers for the brakes. The local shops around here don't want to do such a small job.
That's what you find at just about every machine shop.

I do appreciate the thought and time that has went into this, but it really isn't useful without someone to make them.

For the 99.9% of people without a machine shop, just buy a rear axle washer

Part # 90401-MAS-000 for $2-3 and some VFR spacers.

Use the washer on the brake side and play with the spacers. It isn't as hard as you think to get it centered.

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post #15 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
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I'll gladly take a set if you can make two of the spacers for the brakes. The local shops around here don't want to do such a small job.


* Spacers for the calipers.

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post #16 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAULIBIKER View Post
That's what you find at just about every machine shop.

I do appreciate the thought and time that has went into this, but it really isn't useful without someone to make them.

For the 99.9% of people without a machine shop, just buy a rear axle washer

Part # 90401-MAS-000 for $2-3 and some VFR spacers.

Use the washer on the brake side and play with the spacers. It isn't as hard as you think to get it centered.

I use a combination of CBR and 919 spacers.

I should have been more specific; I would like the caliper spacers. I use three washers and have for a few years. While they wary, they are a pain in the ass to put back together.

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post #17 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 11:54 AM
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Add me to the list if you change your mind and have some extras made to sell. I'll gladly pay a premium for the time and effort you put in to this, especially for the detailed specification publication.

How about getting price quotes as follows:
[1] One set for you.
[2] Two sets - one for you and one for me. If the price is right I'll pay for both and all you need to do is ship me mine with shipping on my dime.
[3] Five sets - one for you (on me as in [2]) and four for me (3 to resell).
[4] Ten sets - one for you (on me) and nine for me (8 to resell).

I'm good with any of the above options. If it's [1] just say so. If [2], [3] or [4], PM me and we'll work out the details. Any that I resell will be at cost.

"Keep on 9-in"

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post #18 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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With the above information you can measure the spacer stack (or washers or whatever) to put on each side to get the proper stack without trial and error. I tried to cut my own spacer but they are bearing race hard so it was better to grind them to size. My toolmaker at work knocked them out in about 20 minutes.



I wish I could provide the service of making them for people but I can't.

The drawings above are public domain. Anyone is free to use them to produce washers and even sell them if they wish.

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post #19 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 12:00 PM
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I wish the toolmaker where you work had a much longer lunch hour.

Now on to Plan B for me. Thanks again for what you put in to this. It makes it possible for even me to do the F3 wheel deal.

"Keep on 9-in"

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post #20 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnich77 View Post
I use a combination of CBR and 919 spacers.

I should have been more specific; I would like the caliper spacers. I use three washers and have for a few years. While they wary, they are a pain in the ass to put back together.
https://www.boltdepot.com/Product-De...?product=13728


I believe I used these...............

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post #21 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 01:28 PM Thread Starter
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4mm = 0.1574"
You can get these ready to order. Will likely be close enough. They also do black anodize but below are standard stock size.
http://www.aluminumspacers.com/as75-16-10.html

Or these in black off-the-shelf, however the OD is only 5/8"
http://www.aluminumspacers.com/as62-16-10-ba.html

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post #22 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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Bike is on the ground with wheel mounted!
Proof is in the pudding. Measured the caliper mounting bosses to the brake rotors, there is 0.2mm of difference, this means a 0.1mm off-center. Or 0.004".






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post #23 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 06:45 PM Thread Starter
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4mm spacers made.


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post #24 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 06:59 PM Thread Starter
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And mounted. They are pretty much dead nuts on center.
These are 3/4" diameter, they are a little big but you get full mounting pad contact so I don't mind them being a little large. I will probably powdercoat them black later.



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post #25 of 26 Old 01-20-2015, 09:26 PM
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post #26 of 26 Old 01-21-2015, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAULIBIKER View Post
https://www.boltdepot.com/Product-De...?product=13728


I believe I used these...............

Quote:
Originally Posted by lococnc
4mm = 0.1574"
You can get these ready to order. Will likely be close enough. They also do black anodize but below are standard stock size.
Aluminum Spacers, 3/4" Outer Diameter, 5/16 Hole, 3/32" Long, AS75-16-10

Or these in black off-the-shelf, however the OD is only 5/8"
Aluminum Spacers, 5/8" Outer Diameter, 0.3125 Hole, 5/32" Long, AS62-16-10-BA


Thank you, I shall pick some up. Definitely better than a stack of washers!!!

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