919 Brake upgrade? - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
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919 Brake upgrade?

Spent the day yesterday at Spokane County Raceway and I have come to conclusion that I need better brakes on my 919. The stockers did reasonably well all things considered but after I met with a couple of 100+mph entries with basically NO front brakes I had to back way off my pace just to make sure I would be able to slow down in time to make the turns. So, what are my options to get some better clamps on that front wheel? I've been searching for a while to get info on the rc51 front end swap but there doesn't appear to be anything more descriptive than "yeah I did it, check my pics" and the occasional bit about triple trees that don't quite fit so i don't want to go down that path until I can find something else out about it. Even if I can't do a front end swap I definitely need bigger rotors and more/better pad options than what's currently out there. I do have a set of stainless lines on it already which helped with lever feel but not a lot with actual stopping power.

And BTW, I'll throw this out there since I've seen a fair amount of 919 track bike bashing here. I have a dedicated track bike ('00 Aprilia RS250). The 919 gets track time because it's a helluva lot easier to ride than the Ape which gives me a chance to get some laps in without having to work as hard. I am NOT looking for opinions about whether I should or should not be using the bike on the track because I am going to regardless. All I need to know is how I can make my brakes work better so I don't end up in the weeds.

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post #2 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 10:48 AM
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Wave rotors and different pads. Change the brake fluid while you're at it.

"Towards the end of the vid, it looks like she may have had a bafflectomy." - MarylandMike
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post #3 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 11:13 AM
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The earlier cbr600rr calipers fit straight on......one of the pistons is bigger in the caliper and you get about 10% more pad area, Its a cheap upgrade.
This is the upgrade i did
Some of the fireblade calipers look like they will fit but i dont know what size the pistons are.

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post #4 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soofle616 View Post
... I am NOT looking for opinions about whether I should or should not be using the bike on the track because I am going to regardless....
Priceless!

I think I might steal that line and add it to my signature.

- Rev. CYCHO -

tires.... it's what's for dinner!
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post #5 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 02:34 PM
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Wave rotors are sh!t... not the sh!t, just SH!T

Virtually nobody that is serious in this sport uses those wave rotors. I won't even sell them to customers that ask for them because I know that they will eventually have a problem. I've seen street riders & track riders alike warp them under moderately aggressive use.

You'll see a lot of promotional pics of them in various professional racing ranks for advertising dollars, but when the bikes come in off the track from actual race conditions those wave rotors are nowhere to be seen...

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post #6 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 02:57 PM
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Thanks. I never knew that. Never owned a set personally but I've been on one track bike that had them, and have a buddy who runs them on a track bike also. Both like them, and the bike I was on seemed to brake well. I don't know what brand they were running.

"Towards the end of the vid, it looks like she may have had a bafflectomy." - MarylandMike
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post #7 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 03:04 PM
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Some are brands are better than others, but the Galfer waves that are the most commonly associated with that style of rotor are the worst ones...

The true test of any product you see for a sportbike is at the racetrack. You look at the products that are being used on bikes in the World Superbike & World Supersport ranks and even MotoGP and you will attune yourself to what works and what doesn't. If a product can stand up to the abuses of their needs then it will be more than adequate for our needs. You can also pretty much rest assured that the name brands in actual use are truly beneficial and not just there for aesthetics.

As I mentioned before just be sure to stay on the look-out for sponsorship and marketing gimmicks. Just the same as using promo pics of the rotors before the race and using some other brand during the race, there are many instances of things not being what they appear. Akrapovic exhausts with Jardine badges or a specialized Japanese Ti exhaust manufacturer with Termingnoni stickers also come to mind

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post #8 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 03:05 PM
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Question: Does stiffening up the front end make braking better?

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post #9 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
You look at the products that are being used on bikes in the World Superbike & World Supersport ranks and even MotoGP and you will attune yourself to what works and what doesn't.

Carbon fiber rotors it is then! Just make sure to brake way before that first stoplight.

"Towards the end of the vid, it looks like she may have had a bafflectomy." - MarylandMike
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post #10 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda ng gingsa View Post
Question: Does stiffening up the front end make braking better?

It depends... First off you have to ask yourself if you are braking properly. Riding technique is very important when it comes to braking performance. I ride pretty quick and aggressive, but I am smooth with my inputs. At one point I was over 200lbs without my gear on and still never bottomed out the forks on my 919 during hard braking. if you are bottoming out the forks then that is a dangerous situation and it needs to be rectified whether by a change in riding style, a forks spring modification or a diet

There is a lot going on when you are using the brakes on a bike. Trailbraking especially as it allows you to set the geometry of the bike so that it can steer better going into the turn and also increase the contact patch of the front tire while it is under load.

If you stiffen up the front end too much to alleviate dive then you can also reduce the effectiveness of the forks and they start skipping over imperfections instead of keeping the rubber in contact with the road. In some cases I have found that just altering the oil height inside the forks a little to make the air spring stiffer is enough to prevent excessive dive without changing the actual coil spring rates.

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post #11 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HondaJim View Post
Carbon fiber rotors it is then! Just make sure to brake way before that first stoplight.
no problem


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post #12 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 04:22 PM
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Sweet.

"Towards the end of the vid, it looks like she may have had a bafflectomy." - MarylandMike
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post #13 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soofle616 View Post
Spent the day yesterday at Spokane County Raceway and I have come to conclusion that I need better brakes on my 919. The stockers did reasonably well all things considered but after I met with a couple of 100+mph entries with basically NO front brakes I had to back way off my pace just to make sure I would be able to slow down in time to make the turns. So, what are my options to get some better clamps on that front wheel? I've been searching for a while to get info on the rc51 front end swap but there doesn't appear to be anything more descriptive than "yeah I did it, check my pics" and the occasional bit about triple trees that don't quite fit so i don't want to go down that path until I can find something else out about it. Even if I can't do a front end swap I definitely need bigger rotors and more/better pad options than what's currently out there. I do have a set of stainless lines on it already which helped with lever feel but not a lot with actual stopping power.

And BTW, I'll throw this out there since I've seen a fair amount of 919 track bike bashing here. I have a dedicated track bike ('00 Aprilia RS250). The 919 gets track time because it's a helluva lot easier to ride than the Ape which gives me a chance to get some laps in without having to work as hard. I am NOT looking for opinions about whether I should or should not be using the bike on the track because I am going to regardless. All I need to know is how I can make my brakes work better so I don't end up in the weeds.
I am using EBC Wavy Rotors with HH pads on my 919.
The brakes are fine, although I will admit I have thought about "more".
I do lots of Track Day miles. (700 + miles last year, should be about 350 this year)
I'm doing 135 mph before braking for a 3rd gear turn, in other words heavy braking every lap.
I have not even changed the brake fluid yet, nor put on my braided lines.
I got the wavy rotors purely for looks.
If I was to buy rotors again, I'd probably go simple round. I did not like the pulse I got in the beginning before everything was bedded in.
I've been toying with the idea of 929/954 calipers/rotors/master figuring they would be easier to get than RC51 items. By the way, I have a fully reworked front end, I wanted to keep the old school look and not go upside down inside.

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post #14 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 06:24 PM
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the cbr929/954 and cbr 600 f4/f4i will all fit, a convolution is that the firestorm brakes will also fit, so i am reading an article in a 2 wheels mag reviewing said bike and they mention that a popular upgrade to their brakes is a direct bolt on from the 2002 gsxr 1000 (3pot).
Dont know the validity of this, but interesting if it was the case.
I thought about the cbr600 uprgade, but the i need a master cyl to match which would mean loosing the mirror mount.
Anyone know if there is a suitable master with the mirror mount, I think i need a 16 mm master piston size.
dave

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post #15 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 07:44 PM
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the above was typed without thinking or checking my measurements, the suzuki brakes are of course 6 pot not 3 and the master piston size I need is around 13. 25mm i think. ( I will look for the exact figures). The hornet piston is in the 11mm range, but there are posts on this subject.
dave

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post #16 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
It depends... First off you have to ask yourself if you are braking properly. Riding technique is very important when it comes to braking performance. I ride pretty quick and aggressive, but I am smooth with my inputs. At one point I was over 200lbs without my gear on and still never bottomed out the forks on my 919 during hard braking. if you are bottoming out the forks then that is a dangerous situation and it needs to be rectified whether by a change in riding style, a forks spring modification or a diet

There is a lot going on when you are using the brakes on a bike. Trailbraking especially as it allows you to set the geometry of the bike so that it can steer better going into the turn and also increase the contact patch of the front tire while it is under load.

If you stiffen up the front end too much to alleviate dive then you can also reduce the effectiveness of the forks and they start skipping over imperfections instead of keeping the rubber in contact with the road. In some cases I have found that just altering the oil height inside the forks a little to make the air spring stiffer is enough to prevent excessive dive without changing the actual coil spring rates.
soofle616
There is a world of wisdom stated above. We have a real bumpy track. The bike liked 0.925s in the front, but needed more spring rate in one place and one place only, namely the end of the long straight. I upped the oil level and it helped there but did not screw things up elsewhere. Oil level is a bonafide front end tuning element.

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post #17 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 10:04 PM
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I didn't know what I was missing till I tried someone's 1000RR. I almost endoed braking for the first corner...So that's what good brakes (and suspension) feels like

found a set of .9 kg progressive suspension springs on the cheap for the front. Not much to lose in trying them and along with some good oil. Will see if that makes a difference for me braking-wise.

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post #18 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 10:32 PM
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Wait until you get a shot at something really good then... Brembo 4 pad mono-bloc's are like the hand of god reaching down grabbing your handlebars and saying "whoa!"

At $2500 EACH I can't afford them, but I did enjoy them for the 4 years I kept this bike for development work

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post #19 of 31 Old 09-07-2010, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
Wait until you get a shot at something really good then... Brembo 4 pad mono-bloc's are like the hand of god reaching down grabbing your handlebars and saying "whoa!"

At $2500 EACH I can't afford them, but I did enjoy them for the 4 years I kept this bike for development work
i couldnt even imagine breaking power like that.... thats nutz!

and i think the 919 has pretty good breaks stock...

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post #20 of 31 Old 09-08-2010, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nd4spdbh View Post
i couldnt even imagine breaking power like that.... thats nutz!

and i think the 919 has pretty good breaks stock...
Keep it that way. Ignorance is bliss! better you don't know what your missing

On the upside though, I always feel like I can push a "lesser" machine like the 919 harder after trying more hyper bikes. The 919 flatters me and makes me feel more confident, like I'm the one in charge and not the bike.

...but good brakes would be nice indeed.

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post #21 of 31 Old 09-08-2010, 09:02 AM
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The 919 does have good brakes stock... They are way more than adequate. Modding them on the 919 is merely personalization in my opinion, but that is valid enough as long as you aren't taking away performance in some way then all is golden!

Those mono-bloc's on the GSXR above are also paired with 320mm narrow band full floating Brembo rotors and of course a Brembo 19X18 master cylinder.

I've never had a problem with my stock Tokico calipers on my 1000RR either (although I did replace the master cylinder with a Brembo years ago), but recently upgraded it to the new GP4-RX calipers and the difference was surprising even to me and I test bikes for a living! Overall stopping power was improved, but that is not the real point I mean you can only use so much before the rear wheel is off the ground anyway. What has me so enamored with them is the feel & precision I get out of them. I'm the self-proclaimed king of trailbraking & these just make it that much easier for me to run the brakes right to the edge and then let off smooth as granite countertop.


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post #22 of 31 Old 09-08-2010, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
The 919 does have good brakes stock... They are way more than adequate. Modding them on the 919 is merely personalization in my opinion, but that is valid enough as long as you aren't taking away performance in some way then all is golden!

Those mono-bloc's on the GSXR above are also paired with 320mm narrow band full floating Brembo rotors and of course a Brembo 19X18 master cylinder.

I've never had a problem with my stock Tokico calipers on my 1000RR either (although I did replace the master cylinder with a Brembo years ago), but recently upgraded it to the new GP4-RX calipers and the difference was surprising even to me and I test bikes for a living! Overall stopping power was improved, but that is not the real point I mean you can only use so much before the rear wheel is off the ground anyway. What has me so enamored with them is the feel & precision I get out of them. I'm the self-proclaimed king of trailbraking & these just make it that much easier for me to run the brakes right to the edge and then let off smooth as granite countertop.

Brakes as an art form.
Use of brakes as an art form.
Nice.

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post #23 of 31 Old 09-08-2010, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
Some are brands are better than others, but the Galfer waves that are the most commonly associated with that style of rotor are the worst ones...
Sure glad I can't ride half as fast as the Moto GP guys When I built up my 919 project I used Galfer rotors front and rear mainly because I liked the way they looked, and I figured that any rotor would be better than stock. So far, no warping or any other issues...

LDH, those Brembo's you posted are absolutely stunning!!

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post #24 of 31 Old 09-08-2010, 05:30 PM
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Back to the original post. He said he has NO brakes entering a corner at 100 MPH. Wouldn't that indicate something wrong other than the design...maybe air in the lines or something. I think the 9'er has pretty decent brakes. I've never done any track days and have rarely ridden over 100 MPH, but can't imagine pulling the lever and no brakes.

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post #25 of 31 Old 09-08-2010, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
Back to the original post. He said he has NO brakes entering a corner at 100 MPH. Wouldn't that indicate something wrong other than the design...maybe air in the lines or something. I think the 9'er has pretty decent brakes. I've never done any track days and have rarely ridden over 100 MPH, but can't imagine pulling the lever and no brakes.
A 919 with no braking power at 100 mph is a 919 with brake problems.
Braking from 100 mph on a 919 with a 100 % stock setup simply is not a problem if the brakes are healthy.
Thanks for bring this point to the fore.

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post #26 of 31 Old 09-08-2010, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
Back to the original post. He said he has NO brakes entering a corner at 100 MPH. Wouldn't that indicate something wrong other than the design...maybe air in the lines or something. I think the 9'er has pretty decent brakes. I've never done any track days and have rarely ridden over 100 MPH, but can't imagine pulling the lever and no brakes.
Yes, good point. While not as good as the top-shelf stuff, as has been said, they're obviously quite adequate. Something obviously wrong if he feels "NO" brakes. Bleed and change fluid? Check the pads? maybe past their best.

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post #27 of 31 Old 09-08-2010, 11:23 PM
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ya... missed that part of the op... I have a completely stock system and i know for a fact i could pull a nose wheelie at 100mph fairly easily (or lock the front up).... not that id want to try.

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post #28 of 31 Old 09-08-2010, 11:26 PM
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...never had it happen to me but i've also read about expanding/ballooning rubber brakelines once things get hot. Possible?

edit: duh, just re-read. hes apparently gone stainless lines already.

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post #29 of 31 Old 09-09-2010, 12:40 AM
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That's one reason I mentioned different pads (personally I would try a new OEM set) and change the fluid. Sounds like a bad case of brake fade. If you have a bad habit of riding the brake lever, which is different from covering the brake lever, things can get overheated real quick.

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post #30 of 31 Old 09-09-2010, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyeee View Post
The earlier cbr600rr calipers fit straight on......one of the pistons is bigger in the caliper and you get about 10% more pad area, Its a cheap upgrade.
This is the upgrade i did
Some of the fireblade calipers look like they will fit but i dont know what size the pistons are.
What year/years 600RR work? Did you have to change the master cylinder? I assume 919 pads will not work.

THANKS Paul

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post #31 of 31 Old 09-09-2010, 08:54 AM
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I used the calipers from 2003/4 model, got um cheap from the bay! t
hey came with new pads and are gold too
I used a m/c from a fireblade as I use barend mirrors.

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