Front master brake cylinder - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 36 Old 04-25-2011, 05:20 PM Thread Starter
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Front master brake cylinder

any year, either 919 or other Honda cylinder, or Honda RC 51 master cylinder will work as well

I dropped my bike on the right side, the mirror attachement created a small leak on the cylinder.

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post #2 of 36 Old 04-25-2011, 05:52 PM
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Arctic954 has been very helpful with brake info on the 919.

The '00 and '01 RC51 uses larger caliper pistons than the 919, and I believe the master cylinder must be sized to match. Later RC51 front calipers are slightly different than the '00 and '01 model years. Interestingly, these calipers will bolt up directly to the 919

The OEM 919 master cylinder diameter is 14mm, which is smaller than most other sport bike MC diameters. To match the early RC51 calipers, a 19mm master cylinder diameter is needed.

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post #3 of 36 Old 04-25-2011, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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...so are you suggesting that I should change my front brake caliper as well if I were to swap my stock front cylinder to RC51? will RC51 calipers mount to 911 forks?

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post #4 of 36 Old 04-25-2011, 08:42 PM
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It's not as simple as swapping out to a different M/C. If you go with an RC M/C.....,then you really should go with the RC calipers to match.

Any year RC caliper will bolt to the 919 and line up on the smaller 919 rotor.


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post #5 of 36 Old 04-25-2011, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemond View Post
...
... will RC51 calipers mount to 911 forks?
Yes, I understand they will.

I also understand that the '00 & '01 RC51 calipers are slightly different than later years (not sure about details). I just bought a set of the '00-'01 calipers for my 919.

Most sport bikes seem to use a 19mm diameter master cylinder; much larger than the OEM 919 master cylinder.

I understand the master cylinder from an '04-'07 GSX-r600/750 is properly sized for the early RC51 calipers. Similar years for the GSX-R1000 also appear to be identical.

The RC51 calipers and master cylinder will work.
I would NOT try these calipers with the 919 master cylinder just like
I would NOT try the RC51 master cylinder with the 919 calipers.

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post #6 of 36 Old 04-25-2011, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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Cool thanks for the tips, just bought a 01 rc51 calipers and M/C off ebay with braided lines. i guess I will be putting the stock calipers up for sale soon then to help offset the cost.

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post #7 of 36 Old 04-26-2011, 06:48 AM
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You then will need....... a 19mm MasterCylinder.

Wether is be the OEM '01 RC-51 master cylinder, or the '04-'07 Nissin Radial Master Cylinder off a GSXR, or a brand new 19mm Brembo RCS radial, or even a new Nissin 19mm Radial Master Cylinder off of e-bay.

You made a good choice...... the '01 RC-51 calipers have larger pistons than the later year SP2 calipers. (the SP2's I believe paired up to a 17mm M/C)

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post #8 of 36 Old 04-26-2011, 08:27 AM
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lemond:
When you get the M/C that you got from Ebay look at the bottom of the M/C there should be a marking "3/4" that is the one for an SP1 the SP2's have a "5/8".
The only way to verify the calipers is to measure them.
The sellers rarely, or never, have an idea of what they are selling. Just because it came of a particular model year means very little.

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post #9 of 36 Old 04-26-2011, 12:24 PM
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I'm going from memory here.......

I believe that the SP1 RC caliper pistons should be- 34mm & 32mm.

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post #10 of 36 Old 04-26-2011, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
I'm going from memory here.......

I believe that the SP1 RC caliper pistons should be- 34mm & 32mm.
2000-2001 RC51 mc 19mm
caliper pistons 34mm/32mm


Good memory: it matches the info you sent me.


Looking through E-bay, I am almost convinced to get a new Nissin master cylinder.
$180 + shipping for MC, lever, and reservoir... plus an extra handlebar cap with a mirror mount that might work with the Honda OEM mirrors.
The used units are fairly well thrashed. Those that are not say they work with model years '04 - '10, when they apparently made a change in '08 to a 17mm master cylinder piston.

What is the difference between a 19x18 and a 19x20 master cylinder?
Is the second number the max piston stroke?
(Brembo MCs are listed with two numbers, Nissin's typically are not)

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post #11 of 36 Old 04-26-2011, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasTraffic View Post
2000-2001 RC51 mc 19mm
caliper pistons 34mm/32mm


Good memory: it matches the info you sent me.


Looking through E-bay, I am almost convinced to get a new Nissin master cylinder.
$180 + shipping for MC, lever, and reservoir... plus an extra handlebar cap with a mirror mount that might work with the Honda OEM mirrors.
The used units are fairly well thrashed. Those that are not say they work with model years '04 - '10, when they apparently made a change in '08 to a 17mm master cylinder piston.

What is the difference between a 19x18 and a 19x20 master cylinder?
Is the second number the max piston stroke?
(Brembo MCs are listed with two numbers, Nissin's typically are not)
The second number is the distance in mm between the piston bore centreline and a parallel line through the lever pivot pin centreline, all of which relates to total leverage ratio. Higher value second sizing numbers mean more lever ratio, and therefore more total ratio, as compared to lower values. Ratio being in terms of the total master cylinder forcing action upon the caliper pistons.

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post #12 of 36 Old 04-26-2011, 05:33 PM
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......btw, I have no idea what the leverage ratio is on my GSXR radial M/C. Have you measured yours McRomo?

I would guess in the neighboorhood of a 19x17?


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post #13 of 36 Old 04-28-2011, 07:19 AM
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lemond:
I forgot to mention. You might want to think about getting a double banjo bolt with a bleeder in it. One of the problems, I have found, with the stock M/C's is that when installed the M/C's are pointed upwards, a bit, and air gets trapped in the M/C. I have found that if I bleed the M/C before the brakes and after it helps with the firmness of the system.

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post #14 of 36 Old 04-28-2011, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasTraffic View Post
...
... Looking through E-bay, I am almost convinced to get a new Nissin master cylinder.
...
Yup, I did it.
I bought one of the new Nissin master cylinders.
It's $50-$90 more than a used unit, though I won't have any worries about rust in the M/C, having to buy a lever, or a reservoir, or a stop switch, or....

Who has a double banjo fitting with a bleed valve? Those I have not seen.

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post #15 of 36 Old 04-28-2011, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
......btw, I have no idea what the leverage ratio is on my GSXR radial M/C. Have you measured yours McRomo?

I would guess in the neighboorhood of a 19x17?


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I just did a crude on the bike measurement with an edge and steel rule.
It looks like 15 mm.
I remember eyeballing it before and it looked around 16, but I used a better method this time.
I'm not saying it is 15, but I will say it is not 17.

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post #16 of 36 Old 04-28-2011, 09:25 AM
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TeaxasTraffic:

Try here: [ShindyPro.com] Shindy Products, Inc. : Catalog look under DAYTONA (racing) prouducts.

I believe that they are distributed by Parts Unlimited or you can contact them directly at [ShindyPro.com] Shindy Products, Inc. : Contact Us.

Russell also sells one. they can be found at a number of outlets like Dennis Kirk etc.
Yoyodyne: Aluminum Banjo Bolts and 1/4 turn Fairing Fastener

Hope this helps.

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post #17 of 36 Old 04-28-2011, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I just did a crude on the bike measurement with an edge and steel rule.
It looks like 15 mm.
I remember eyeballing it before and it looked around 16, but I used a better method this time.
I'm not saying it is 15, but I will say it is not 17.
Hmmm...

The Brembo master cylinders that are spec'd for the '04-'07 GSX-R600/750 are either 19x18(track) or 19x20(street).

A 19x15 or 19x16 MC would give more lever movement and less effort.
Better feel? More controllable? Or just not such a good idea to go that far astray?

Arctic954 says it works well; I'll soon be finding out personally :001_smile:

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post #18 of 36 Old 04-28-2011, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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well i got my package today, i checked the marking on the bottom of the M/C, it is marked as 5/8 so that would make it a SP2 (17mm) piston. now i just hope the calipers it came with would fit without adapters.

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post #19 of 36 Old 04-28-2011, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemond View Post
well i got my package today, i checked the marking on the bottom of the M/C, it is marked as 5/8 so that would make it a SP2 (17mm) piston. now i just hope the calipers it came with would fit without adapters.
Basically you could just leave the 919 calipers on it, they are the same as the ones you just bought. Unless, perhaps the color is different, the caliper piston size is the same tho. Just install your new M/C and call it good.....





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post #20 of 36 Old 04-28-2011, 06:33 PM
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lemond:
Since you bought them on Ebay, contact the seller and return them. Measure the calipers and see if they are SP1 or SP2's. If the calipers are SP2's and you are OK with that, make a deal with the seller and keep the set for a discount.

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post #21 of 36 Old 04-28-2011, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
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well the plus side of the front brake assembly i got already has a set of braided lines. so I will just replace the whole front brakes.

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post #22 of 36 Old 04-30-2011, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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well
i have got good news and bad news,
good news is that M/C and front brake calipers fits 919 forks. The bad news is that the braided line that came with the RC51 SP2 brake assembly is way too short. on top of that, I had to pull the front headlight out and the black shroud for the headlight was split in half!

I think I will just reuse the existing brake line. and superglue the headlight shroud. headaches.....

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post #23 of 36 Old 04-30-2011, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
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Hmmm...

The Brembo master cylinders that are spec'd for the '04-'07 GSX-R600/750 are either 19x18(track) or 19x20(street).

A 19x15 or 19x16 MC would give more lever movement and less effort.
Better feel? More controllable? Or just not such a good idea to go that far astray?

Arctic954 says it works well; I'll soon be finding out personally :001_smile:
1
I think the Brembo sizing stated above might be a 19 mm bore based master cylinder with revised interaxis distance to swap out the later 17 mm bore GSXR MCs that made the brakes feel like mush. They make no sense to me in terms of the actual MCs on the 06/07 600&750 in our garage.

2
Arctic and I did our research for radial MCs for 919s on the basis of other Honda calipers. My number crunching was on the basis of using F4i calipers on a 919 and wanting to find a suitable OEM MC off another bike to use.
I pulled the following up from an earlier thread :

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
.... did an impulse buy on e-bay the other day.... Picked up some RC51 SP1 (2000-2001) gold calipers - which are 34/32.... and require a 19mm master cylinder.

Currently doing the research to find an OEM Radial MC ----- think the '05-'07 GSXR-750's have a stock Nissin 19mm Radial MC....... I'm looking for an EBay $50-80 radial OEM solution.

Here's the info I have so far.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GSXR600/750 '04-'07 - OEM Radial Master Cylinder, 19.05mm
GSXR600/750 '08-'10 - OEM Radial Master Cylinder, 17mm

Yamaha R6/R1 - '5 newer - OEM Brembo Radial Master Cylinder, 16mm

RC-51/fireblade Front Brake Information
929-SP1 - Master Cylinder 19mm, Caliper pistons 34/32mm
954-SP2 - Master Cylinder 17mm, Caliper pistons 32/30mm
SP1 Brake Rotor Thickness 4.5mm
SP2 Brake Rotor Thickness 5.0mm

Other Information

2003-2004 CBR600RR mc 11/16 (17.4625 mm)
caliper pistons 32mm/30mm

2000-2001 CBR929RR mc 19mm
caliper pistons 34mm/30mm

2002-2003 CBR954RR mc 11/16 (17.4625 mm)
caliper pistons 32mm/30mm

2000-2001 RC51 mc 19mm
caliper pistons 34mm/32mm

2002-present RC51 mc 11/16 (17.4625 mm)
caliper pistons 32mm/30mm

1999-Present CBR600F4(i) mc 5/8 (15.87mm)
caliper pistons 34mm/32mm

Stock VTR Master Cylinder 14mm
caliper pistons 30mm/27mm
Now we can add in the 06/7 GSX-R750 front caliper piston diameters.
Drum Rollllllllllllll
34/30 are the numbers.
I've done the calcs.
The F4i calipers will have 6.03 % more piston area than the GSX-R items.
On the GSX-R we found that the addition of braided lines, and a good bleed, provided a lever feel that was we (son and I both) felt was the high end of firmness in terms of what we wanted. So, the extra piston area of the F4i calipers will increase the ratio a tad, and should yield exactly the feel I am looking for on the 919.
So, the hunt now begins for an 06/07 GSX-R 600/750 19.05 master.
Eyeballing it, the 919 Galfer braided SS line kit looks as though it will work with the GSX-R master.
The brake light switch connectors will, so no issue there.
For sure a 08 and later 17 mm master would be a mistake - it would be too mushy.
Back to the 06/07 GSX-R masters, the Interaxis Distance looks to be 15 mm, not 16 like some others have . I was as careful as I could be with the steel ruler and tried to centre and eye things straight, I'm sure it is not 16 and is a nominal 15.
Going to have to buy another CRG lever also, as the 919 lever is not a match.
Will need some kind of bracket to mount the remote. I guess a tab up from the top bar clamp bolt will be needed.

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post #24 of 36 Old 04-30-2011, 07:48 PM
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Yep.....definitely a crazy game of numbers right there. I basically went with the biggest set of calipers I could find..... either the SP1 34/32.... or the F4i calipers at 34/32. Then, in knowing that the SP1 had a 19mm m/c.... then proceeded to find a Radial Mount version of the same m/c piston size.

I was basically taking a leap of faith in regards to what the leverage ratio was going to be and feel like.

There is some lever movement --- its not a throw you over the handlebars setup with a single finger (which I didn't want)....... but with a little bit of lever movement --- they'll haul you right down to nothing from 135 MPH with a very progressive linear feel.....

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post #25 of 36 Old 04-30-2011, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
Yep.....definitely a crazy game of numbers right there. I basically went with the biggest set of calipers I could find..... either the SP1 34/32.... or the F4i calipers at 34/32. Then, in knowing that the SP1 had a 19mm m/c.... then proceeded to find a Radial Mount version of the same m/c piston size.

I was basically taking a leap of faith in regards to what the leverage ratio was going to be and feel like.

There is some lever movement --- its not a throw you over the handlebars setup with a single finger (which I didn't want)....... but with a little bit of lever movement --- they'll haul you right down to nothing from 135 MPH with a very progressive linear feel.....
I've not yet mounted my F4i calipers and GSXR radial MC.
Expect to sometime in May.
Will report back when completed.

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post #26 of 36 Old 04-30-2011, 08:27 PM
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McRomo44.....

I CAN say --- don't use this setup with your EBC rotors..... I've tried 2 different pairs --- they pulsate real bad at slow speeds. (I started with a new set of Vesrah Pad's and a brand new set of EBC Pro-Light rotors....) I thought at first that the pads and rotors simply needed a brake in period..... the slow speed pulsating during braking never went away.

I switched back over to the OEM Honda rotors --- and this setup is smooooooooth and strong.

Maybe the EBC HH's with the EBC rotors would have been a better combo -- didn't try it.

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post #27 of 36 Old 04-30-2011, 10:22 PM
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I am awaiting delivery of a set of '01 RC51 calipers (with braided lines) and a new NISSIN 19mm 5/8" RADIAL BRAKE MASTER CYLINDER. Not sure what the 5/8" part is referring to, unless it is the fulcrum-to-bolt distance (5/8" = 15.875mm). That would fit mcromo's observations.

There is also a double banjo bolt on the way. I decided against a banjo with bleeder since the banjo bolt is up-side-down for that to work.

Anyone know of a GOOD place to buy Honda OEM pads? Most places I see have them listed at full suggested retail, and no one has them listed on E-bay.. .except one, and they only have one set.

Mounting the whole setup should be quick & easy since everything is a direct bolt-on and no drilling, fitting, or modification is needed. The bleeder valve on the master cylinder is something I have looked at with envy on other bikes for a while.

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post #28 of 36 Old 04-30-2011, 10:53 PM
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and sir..... don't forget the MOTUL RBF 600!

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post #29 of 36 Old 05-01-2011, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic954 View Post
McRomo44.....

I CAN say --- don't use this setup with your EBC rotors..... I've tried 2 different pairs --- they pulsate real bad at slow speeds. (I started with a new set of Vesrah Pad's and a brand new set of EBC Pro-Light rotors....) I thought at first that the pads and rotors simply needed a brake in period..... the slow speed pulsating during braking never went away.

I switched back over to the OEM Honda rotors --- and this setup is smooooooooth and strong.

Maybe the EBC HH's with the EBC rotors would have been a better combo -- didn't try it.
The brakes pulsed on my 919 with new EBC wave rotors, stock calipers and new EBC HH pads. The shop had warned me about the wave rotors pulsing. After a period of time, the pulsing started to diminish then totally went away. I can not quantify how long it took, but I'm guessing over 600 miles, some track time included. I've attributed the pulse going away to some peculiar pad wear matching up to how the wave rotors load the pads. I will admit, at first I was asking myself "what have I done to myself and all the $$$ !" But it all worked out in the end. Time cured it all. I have no issues at all. I just hope I can still say that after some time has gone by on yet to be installed F4i calipers and new pads on the used EBC wave rotors.

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post #30 of 36 Old 05-01-2011, 10:08 AM
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What is the down side of using the the higher volume M/C with the stock calipers?

That'll work........
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post #31 of 36 Old 05-01-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
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What is the down side of using the the higher volume M/C with the stock calipers?
IF lever geometry is the same, then more effort is needed to develop the same hydraulic pressure. You have to squeeze the lever harder.

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post #32 of 36 Old 05-11-2011, 07:05 AM
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I have all pieces EXCEPT the brake pads.

The calipers are cleaned, the master cylinder is in-hand. I have the double banjo bolt and two(!) sets of SS brake lines.
The RC51 lines look a little short, and the std length 919 lines are longer than needed with the TharBars adjusted as they are.

I ordered the OEM pads from Xxxxx Xxxxx Xxxxxxxxx. They have decent prices on OEM parts, though they take FOREVER to process the order and ship. I even got a notice on Sat, May 7th that the order "had shipped" on Tue, May 10th. I placed the order on Monday, May 2.

Anyone know of a place that sells OEM parts for less than full retail AND will get you parts in less than two weeks?

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post #33 of 36 Old 05-12-2011, 05:14 PM
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MASTER CYLINDER REBUILD KIT

Anyone ever tried one of these rebuild kits? The front brake on my wifes bike tends to stick a little bit when you let it go... I'm thinking it might just be the spring and stuff inside the cylinder and not the cylinder itself...

any thoughts???

Here is the link to the rebuild kit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA...Q5fAccessories

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post #34 of 36 Old 05-12-2011, 06:43 PM
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Try lubricating the lever pivot and, most importantly, the cam face that bears against the end of the piston. Sticking problems are usually taken care of by doing this.

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
------- Rob --------
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post #35 of 36 Old 05-15-2011, 09:06 PM
Tirone shoelaces
 
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Central Texas
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DONE

RC51 calipers and new master cylinder are installed.
The longest part of the whole process was bleeding the system.

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post #36 of 36 Old 05-24-2011, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
Milites Gregarius
 
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: DC
Posts: 174
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ok, finally got around and installed the RC51 master cylinder and installed new braided lines from G&J aircraft, bled the brakes with Pentosin Dot 4 brake fluid



Test rode around the block a few times, braking is way better than before and more crisp in response.

bad thing is that I broke the headlight shroud, i guess a new head light mod is going to be my next project.

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