Wait- I Need HOW Many Gold Valves?! - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 23 Old 07-14-2015, 09:07 PM Thread Starter
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Wait- I Need HOW Many Gold Valves?!

Hi all,

Frequent lurker here. Before I start, thanks for all the good knowledge here. I've learned a lot with searches. Sometimes the hours of reading don't quite pay off, though. As such, my long-winded post:

My '07 919 w/ ~11k miles looks great, sounds mean as hell, and has lovely drivable torque. That said, it leaves quite a bit to be desired in the handling department. I don't suppose it's fair to compare it to my buddy's Speed Triple R with Ohlins, but still. . .
The Speed feels "tippy"; like it's ready to lean any which way, and changes direction in a breath. My Honda, though, feels slow and heavy and all vague. The action to make a quick direction change feels more akin to shifting a heavy toddler from one hip to another.
Honesty, even the BMW GS 800 & 1200 I've ridden feel snappier than my bike.
Like most of the guys here, I'm willing to put some dollars into making my bike a quick little devil, but want those bucks to be spent efficiently and wisely. . . and at a pace I (and wifey) can handle.

I'm 6'6 and 220lbs. I've got Renthal lows, but the rest of the position is normal. I do mostly spirited street driving with lots of curvy back roads. Never ride two-up, and don't have any luggage other than my backpack.

Currently, I've got the shock preload at max, and the rebound at. . . I don't remember. It's not the best, but I don't notice that it bugs me too much.
The fork preload is set to full-in, with the last (top) line just below the surface of the cap. The rebound is turned out to about 1 & 3/4 turn counter-clockwise of full-in.
I've also raised the forks by 10mm.
I'm running Pirelli Angel GT tires with about 2500 miles on them. Depending on the day and whatnot, I generally run about 36psi in the front, and 39 in the rear.

All of this has dramatically improved handling. As it is, though, I feel the forks are still squishy, and are doing me no favors in the handling department. Indeed; turn-in sucks, and it feels as though about 1-2 seconds into any tightish turn, the steering gets suddenly quicker and the bike steers me more into the turn. I try to keep the throttle on pretty much immediately after turn-in to mitigate this, but it only helps so much. I've been mucking with rebound settings, wondering if the fork "stacking" has anything to do with this.

Anyway, I've got a set of RaceTech 1.0kg springs on the way. I'm considering installing some Gold Valves as well, but am a little bit at a loss as to what to order or what would really be helpful for my setup. For my '07 bike, do I need both the regular GV *and* the rebound GV? I'm hoping the rebound GV is simply the one big-daddy valve that works with my rebound-adjustable fork, but have a feeling that isn't true.

I'm assuming I'm going to notice a huge difference with my new springs and oil (Motorex Racing 10w). On the same note, I assume there's some sort of difference between stock valving and the regular GV. What is this difference compared to just a spring upgrade? And what is the difference between doing just the regular GV and the regular and rebound GV?

In short:
1) What is the difference between regular and rebound GV?
2) What, exactly, will each these valve upgrades do for me? How much closer will they get my bike to turning right the hell in, and feel "tippy" and quick like the Speed Triple?
3) How much of a difference will I see from stock-to-RT springs, just RT springs-to-regular GV, and RT springs & regular GV-to-all that plus the rebound GV?
4) At what point do the fork upgrades show great promise, but are fully hampered by the turd suspending the other wheel?

Thanks for your time, attention, and expertise.

-B

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post #2 of 23 Old 07-14-2015, 10:28 PM
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In short, your incoming springs may be too stiff, but is workable. Don't worry about valves on your stock 919 forks for now. Get the springs in and then save up to replace the rear shock pronto!

You'd be surprised how much the rear affects the front with that pogostick.

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post #3 of 23 Old 07-20-2015, 11:01 AM
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This is a little off track, but not enough to start another thread......

A friend of mine is contemplating the purchase of a Super Hawk. The forks are totally shot. He's on a budget.....

Aprox, How much money to completely rebuild the forks of a Super Hawk? Springs, seals, valves, fluid, what am I forgetting? Can he and I do it ourselves if we've never done it before?

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post #4 of 23 Old 07-22-2015, 06:27 AM
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I rebuilt my forks a few weeks ago. Held off on the gold valve, but I installed the same race tech springs that you have. I weigh 215.

When I purchased the bike, it had 42k miles on it and I doubt the forks had ever been rebuilt. The front end felt very vague and squishy especially during slow speed maneuvers.

The springs alone (along with fresh oil) made a huge difference. The bike felt "normal" again, no more squishiness. Now I need to address the bouncy tail...

I'm curious as well about the gold valve questions, as in the regular vs rebound etc

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post #5 of 23 Old 07-22-2015, 08:53 AM
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Paging LDH...

I believe "regular" GV in this context is compression valves. Upgraded springs resolved the silly amount of dive for my 155lbs, even with my screwed up GV install.

If you want speed triple handling, buy a speed triple. The 919s frame flex is s weak point in the whole system which no spring, valve, or shock will ever fix. If you want to increase turn in, drop the forks up to 10mm in the forks.

if you love your motorcycle, set it free.. if it comes back and hits you.. you highsided
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post #6 of 23 Old 07-22-2015, 10:56 AM
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^ just so there's no confusion, you want to raise the forks in the triples, effectively lowering the front of the bike. I'd personally start around 5mm and tweak from there as needed. I've got mine at about 6mm and find that pretty good for me.

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post #7 of 23 Old 07-22-2015, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beefsalad View Post
Paging LDH...

I believe "regular" GV in this context is compression valves. Upgraded springs resolved the silly amount of dive for my 155lbs, even with my screwed up GV install.

If you want speed triple handling, buy a speed triple. The 919s frame flex is s weak point in the whole system which no spring, valve, or shock will ever fix. If you want to increase turn in, drop the forks up to 10mm in the forks.
1
A mere mortal on street tires is not going to discover frame flex as a limitation on a 919.
The front and rear suspension components are the major culprit, and on 2004 and later bikes, the rear even more so.

2
Another way to reduce the roll axis effort needed re turning in is to lift up the front and rear of the bike as to elevate the centre of gravity.
This also increases ground clearance so more lean can be realized before grinding begins.
Unfortunately, one can't lift the rear without a length adjustable shock.

A 919 with good stuff front and rear, that is properly setup and ridden well, can really be hustled around, and with no drama.
True, it's much slower in transitions, but it's a very stable platform to ride on.

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post #8 of 23 Old 07-22-2015, 06:05 PM
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1.0s are way stiff, for your particulars I'd suggest 0.925 at the most, maybe a 0.90, with 15 mm of internal preload.
1.0s will ride like a truck on a 919 for your particulars, guaranteed.
(and your current tire pressure will aggravate it even more)

Increase the oil level to 125 mm and pick up some added effective spring rate towards full bump.

Set the ride height adjuster at middle position.

You might be able to close down the rebound needle a wee bit, but only try no more than 1/8 of a turn at a time.

I'd try dropping the front down to 32 or 33 psi.
I did a super fast search, and the Angels are designed for enhance stability, so carcass and profile are surely slowing down the front re steering changes.

At the back, same comments about the tires.
Try 35 or 36 psi and see how that feels.
Now to the rear shock, I mean strut with a spring on it.
I found the rebound adjuster to be borderline useless.
More rebound seemed to give nothing but more harshness, and no improved control.
Set it at mid point and ignore it.
The 07 has a mush rear spring.
Using max preload just means you have mush spring with a rear end that behaves solid on extension after bump/rebound or road seams or road indulations.
Try positions 3 and 4, I'd try 4 first.
The back will feel better once the front is more stable, as the back won't be getting as much input from the front, as less travel will be used most of the time.

I suggest you try it long enough to get used to it before judging it.
Stock 919s are so softly sprung and damped, that smoother technique is even more of a necessity if you want to cook a bit.

I can't stress enough going lighter on the front spring, especially if you leave the rear spring as is.
Without exception, every on line calculator or chart I have seen so for, calls for too stiff front and too soft rear when it comes to 919s.

I'm still running my 919 front end. Gold comp and rebound valves for more compression and rebound damping force.
Started with 0.90s and 140 mm of oil, went to 0.925s and 125 mm, both with 15 mm of installed preload.
(I have a fully built F4i front end not yet fitted, it has 0.95s and 10 mm of internal preload and custom extended fork caps to DROP the tubes, not raise them)
My Penkse began life as a two way with 1000# spring and ultimately evolved to a special 3 way with digressive compression piston face and spring that was track tested in 1000, 1100, and 1200 ratings. It now has a 1300# on it, noting I do lots of two up riding. The shock has been lengthened to allow for soft topout by light preload, and elevated ride height to raise the C of G for easier chassis roll in and transition, plus more ground clearance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brushbuster View Post
Hi all,

Frequent lurker here. Before I start, thanks for all the good knowledge here. I've learned a lot with searches. Sometimes the hours of reading don't quite pay off, though. As such, my long-winded post:

My '07 919 w/ ~11k miles looks great, sounds mean as hell, and has lovely drivable torque. That said, it leaves quite a bit to be desired in the handling department. I don't suppose it's fair to compare it to my buddy's Speed Triple R with Ohlins, but still. . .
The Speed feels "tippy"; like it's ready to lean any which way, and changes direction in a breath. My Honda, though, feels slow and heavy and all vague. The action to make a quick direction change feels more akin to shifting a heavy toddler from one hip to another.
Honesty, even the BMW GS 800 & 1200 I've ridden feel snappier than my bike.
Like most of the guys here, I'm willing to put some dollars into making my bike a quick little devil, but want those bucks to be spent efficiently and wisely. . . and at a pace I (and wifey) can handle.

I'm 6'6 and 220lbs. I've got Renthal lows, but the rest of the position is normal. I do mostly spirited street driving with lots of curvy back roads. Never ride two-up, and don't have any luggage other than my backpack.

Currently, I've got the shock preload at max, and the rebound at. . . I don't remember. It's not the best, but I don't notice that it bugs me too much.
The fork preload is set to full-in, with the last (top) line just below the surface of the cap. The rebound is turned out to about 1 & 3/4 turn counter-clockwise of full-in.
I've also raised the forks by 10mm.
I'm running Pirelli Angel GT tires with about 2500 miles on them. Depending on the day and whatnot, I generally run about 36psi in the front, and 39 in the rear.

All of this has dramatically improved handling. As it is, though, I feel the forks are still squishy, and are doing me no favors in the handling department. Indeed; turn-in sucks, and it feels as though about 1-2 seconds into any tightish turn, the steering gets suddenly quicker and the bike steers me more into the turn. I try to keep the throttle on pretty much immediately after turn-in to mitigate this, but it only helps so much. I've been mucking with rebound settings, wondering if the fork "stacking" has anything to do with this.

Anyway, I've got a set of RaceTech 1.0kg springs on the way. I'm considering installing some Gold Valves as well, but am a little bit at a loss as to what to order or what would really be helpful for my setup. For my '07 bike, do I need both the regular GV *and* the rebound GV? I'm hoping the rebound GV is simply the one big-daddy valve that works with my rebound-adjustable fork, but have a feeling that isn't true.

I'm assuming I'm going to notice a huge difference with my new springs and oil (Motorex Racing 10w). On the same note, I assume there's some sort of difference between stock valving and the regular GV. What is this difference compared to just a spring upgrade? And what is the difference between doing just the regular GV and the regular and rebound GV?

In short:
1) What is the difference between regular and rebound GV?
2) What, exactly, will each these valve upgrades do for me? How much closer will they get my bike to turning right the hell in, and feel "tippy" and quick like the Speed Triple?
3) How much of a difference will I see from stock-to-RT springs, just RT springs-to-regular GV, and RT springs & regular GV-to-all that plus the rebound GV?
4) At what point do the fork upgrades show great promise, but are fully hampered by the turd suspending the other wheel?

Thanks for your time, attention, and expertise.

-B

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post #9 of 23 Old 07-23-2015, 10:44 AM Thread Starter
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Wow- excellent! Thanks for the responses. Special thanks to mcromo44 for all that feedback.
I've already installed the 1.0s, so I guess they'll be in there a while. I set them to the same OA length as the stock spring/spacer combo, and oil up to 140mm. With that, I have 1 line showing on the preload adjusters in order to get 33mm sag (using the protocol in the RaceTech instructions). I'm definitely up for the extra oil, even if I can't return the springs. So I'd mostly notice that the forks just have a bit more resitance to squish when they get toward the end of the stroke? Would I notice a difference in any other riding conditions?

The new springs feel SO much better! If they're off, they're at least closer to correct than the stock ones.
I'm digesting the price/benefit ratio of a Penske and new tires now. I know it'll come down to this before long. I really like the notion of 1) having nice damping and control in the rear and 2) the ride height adjustment!
Once that's done, maybe I'll rethink new springs.

In the meantime, I'll definitely give those adjustments a shot. I've got some time tomorrow to play, so that'll be my big focus.
I'll check back in after that.

Thanks again!

-B

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post #10 of 23 Old 07-23-2015, 11:04 AM
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Please note that the the stock spacer length in association with your 1.0 spring's longer free length results in excessive internal preload.
I suggest you also try it with your preload adjuster out fully, so all the rings are showing, and see how that is.
Best would be to try that in association with rear preload reduction down to # 3 or 4.
For sure, try it as it is, but also try the aforementioned.
Also.
You can put a zip tie on one of the fork tubes, and see how much travel you are using for the kind of riding you normally do. The dust cover will push it up the tube. It makes for a great telltale device.
You won't see as much bump travel or brake drive with the new springs, and the front end will feel much firmer, as in day and night different.
The increased oil level stiffens up the end of the bump travel.
Unless you are a hard braker, with the 1.0s and the amount of installed preload you have, you might not like an oil level higher than 140. But trying 125 is a worthwhile experiment if you are in tinker mode.
Most of all, enjoy !


Quote:
Originally Posted by brushbuster View Post
Wow- excellent! Thanks for the responses. Special thanks to mcromo44 for all that feedback.
I've already installed the 1.0s, so I guess they'll be in there a while. I set them to the same OA length as the stock spring/spacer combo, and oil up to 140mm. With that, I have 1 line showing on the preload adjusters in order to get 33mm sag (using the protocol in the RaceTech instructions). I'm definitely up for the extra oil, even if I can't return the springs. So I'd mostly notice that the forks just have a bit more resitance to squish when they get toward the end of the stroke? Would I notice a difference in any other riding conditions?

The new springs feel SO much better! If they're off, they're at least closer to correct than the stock ones.
I'm digesting the price/benefit ratio of a Penske and new tires now. I know it'll come down to this before long. I really like the notion of 1) having nice damping and control in the rear and 2) the ride height adjustment!
Once that's done, maybe I'll rethink new springs.

In the meantime, I'll definitely give those adjustments a shot. I've got some time tomorrow to play, so that'll be my big focus.
I'll check back in after that.

Thanks again!

-B

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post #11 of 23 Old 07-23-2015, 12:35 PM
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Keep in mind that your springs are in the zone of 25 % stiffer, so will store far more energy than you mush stockers. The net effect in terms of damping, is that you'll have more effective compression damping force, which is light to begin with re 919s. Next keep in mind that motorcycles are very rebound dominant vehicles in terms of damping force needs. By virtue of the much stiffer springs, you'll have less effective rebound damping force. You can't change the high speed damping curve without changing the shim stack inside the cartridge. But you can change, and will have to re-adjust, the low speed damping by the external adjuster. Remember, too much rebound can put you on your head. When you get a "wooden feel" at the front, you've gone too far. Less is better than too much. Just right is ideal.

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post #12 of 23 Old 07-23-2015, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
When you get a "wooden feel" at the front, you've gone too far.
TWSS

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post #13 of 23 Old 07-23-2015, 02:41 PM
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And contact a doctor if it lasts for more information than four hours


Dan
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post #14 of 23 Old 07-23-2015, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voodooridr View Post
And contact a doctor if it lasts for more information than four hours
Excellent !
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post #15 of 23 Old 07-24-2015, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Holy crap. I just got back from my standard backroad loop after making just the shock preload and tire pressure changes that mcromo44 suggested. I feel like I'm on a different bike! What the hell?! It feels so much smoother and snappier. The rear end still feels decidedly indecisive, but the overall feel of the bike is incredible. I was grinning bigtime- it may last four hours, and my wife may be really in for it. . . I really hope this isn't placebo effect.
So, if I may, why did the tire pressure and 3 fewer preload clicks make SUCH a difference?

Additionally, I didn't want to make a bunch of changes at once, so just did the shock preload and tire pressure. While I'm a believer in pretty much anything mcromo44 says now (can I come to Alberta and study under you for a year?), I'm curious as to why I should change the front end preload/ride height so much. I thought it should be based off of sag- which is set at 34mm for me now. If I crank the adjusters out, I'll get a lot more sag. Why is that better?
For info, a picture of my zip-tie after the ride should be attached to this post.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
But you can change, and will have to re-adjust, the low speed damping by the external adjuster. Remember, too much rebound can put you on your head. When you get a "wooden feel" at the front, you've gone too far. Less is better than too much. Just right is ideal.
So this is something that gets me every time. When I'm turning my adjusters, I'm adding or subtracting rebound *damping*. So when you say "too much rebound", do you mean too much or too little damping? In dummy terms, do I screw clockwise 'til it gets wooden, or counter-clockwise? Heh heh.
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post #16 of 23 Old 07-24-2015, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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Oh, and one more thing. Would swapping the spring from a '02-'03 shock make things better for me? I understand those are sprung at ~1000lbs, while mine's at ~800. Would this help?

-B

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post #17 of 23 Old 07-24-2015, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brushbuster View Post
Oh, and one more thing. Would swapping the spring from a '02-'03 shock make things better for me? I understand those are sprung at ~1000lbs, while mine's at ~800. Would this help?

-B
In short, no. It still sucks. The 02-03 is great for 2-up riding but solo it's a pogo stick in a bad way. You're better off spending the dough on a quality aftermarket unit.

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post #18 of 23 Old 07-24-2015, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brushbuster View Post
Oh, and one more thing. Would swapping the spring from a '02-'03 shock make things better for me? I understand those are sprung at ~1000lbs, while mine's at ~800. Would this help?

-B
Yes, it will help, but be sure to check the free length to make sure they are the same, and if they are not, correct at the preload collar.
If the free length is the same, start at position 1 or 2 max, I'd go at 1 to start with.
Be mindful though, that reports I've seen of the early springs is that they are in the # 1200 zone.
The stock damper is pretty harsh on it's own.
My theory is that the stock damper likely has a very heavy low speed compression damping force curve.
Put the two together and the result might not be want you like.
Worth trying though, as long as you can try someone else's spring or find one cheap to buy.

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post #19 of 23 Old 07-24-2015, 10:49 AM
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See what PVester just said.

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post #20 of 23 Old 07-24-2015, 11:25 AM
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1
A
Softened tire carcass.
B
Reduction in spring resistance force (not rate) towards full extension.

2
Ideal settings are a matter of overall balance.
Spring rates/preloads/ride heights/damping settings that is.
Some things at rear affect front, and vice versa.
A mistake is looking at one end of the bike in isolation, worse yet, looking at just one end of the suspension system exclusive of the related chassis at that end.
When you reduce the rear preload, the back of the bike drops.
This alters your front geometry and to some extent, the fore and aft weight distribution.
By reducing your front ride height, you bring the bike back into balance re fore and aft ride heights, maintain your front end geometry AND here to end up with a reduction in spring resistance force (not rate) towards full extension.
Thus also explaining why looking at front sag numbers in isolation is ungood.


3
You still have some stroke left.
To know the limit, here's what to do.
Take one fork off, keep it vertical, take off the fork cap, slowly bottom out the fork, be sure to get to mechanical bottom out which is after the hydraulic snubber zone (hence slowly bottom out fork).
Put a wrap of marker tape a zip tie width above the dust seal.
You normally don't want to see the zip tie less than 10 mm away from the marker tape.
That last 10 mm is for some unforseen bump event, not normal street riding.
(on a track, the hydraulic damper zone is bad news, as it reduces rebound effect, which is why on track only fork mods, it gets trimmed off)
The cheater method is: get front end unloaded/have a helper/remove fork caps/very slowly lift front wheel to mechanical bottom out/put on marker tape. Go real slow and hope the oil runs down the coils instead of dribbling on your tank etc. Put rags on in case the oil does dribble some.

4
Too much rebound means turned in too much/too stiff/too much rebound damping force.
So turn in clockwise until you get a feeling you don't like, then back it out at least an 1/8 of a turn.
When you are on the ragged edge of what is good/OK/bad, even with stock rebound needle/seat profile, 1/12th of a turn makes noticeable difference.
Also, "too much rebound damping" is another way of saying "too much hydraulic resistance in the low speed rebound circuit".

Quote:
Originally Posted by brushbuster View Post
1
So, if I may, why did the tire pressure and 3 fewer preload clicks make SUCH a difference?

2
Additionally, I didn't want to make a bunch of changes at once, so just did the shock preload and tire pressure.
I'm curious as to why I should change the front end preload/ride height so much. I thought it should be based off of sag- which is set at 34mm for me now. If I crank the adjusters out, I'll get a lot more sag. Why is that better?

3
For info, a picture of my zip-tie after the ride should be attached to this post.

4
So this is something that gets me every time. When I'm turning my adjusters, I'm adding or subtracting rebound *damping*. So when you say "too much rebound", do you mean too much or too little damping? In dummy terms, do I screw clockwise 'til it gets wooden, or counter-clockwise? Heh heh.

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post #21 of 23 Old 07-24-2015, 11:44 AM
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After too many times tweaking with the rear shock, I came to the conclusion that it was a waste of time. Ignore the rebound adjuster by leaving it mid point, and just focus on the best preload setting within the confines of the stock spring, accept it and put up with it until I had coin for a real shock correctly sprung.

The front on the other hand, responds well to springs and oil level, real improved impact can be easily made by changes to it. Cheap changes at that.
Sure, it's a high stiction fork overall, compared to current day oem fitted USD forks, but improvements can easily be realized for few $$ and some very careful fitting work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brushbuster View Post
The rear end still feels decidedly indecisive, but the overall feel of the bike is incredible.

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post #22 of 23 Old 07-25-2015, 03:14 AM
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This is a little off track, but not enough to start another thread......

A friend of mine is contemplating the purchase of a Super Hawk. The forks are totally shot. He's on a budget.....

Aprox, How much money to completely rebuild the forks of a Super Hawk? Springs, seals, valves, fluid, what am I forgetting? Can he and I do it ourselves if we've never done it before?
Look through my started threads for one on fork mods. There is an article on how to Rodger Mod Superhawk forks.

Its simple and it works.

BTW its the same cart as a 919.

NZspokes is offline  
post #23 of 23 Old 07-25-2015, 05:12 AM Thread Starter
Tirone
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Viginia
Posts: 37
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Wow- all this has been extremely helpful. After lots of reading and re-reading, I think I'm opaquely clear on most of the info in this thread now. Thanks to everyone who responded to my cries of ignorance.

I'm out of town 'til mid-week (sans bike, I'm afraid), but will be looking forward to continuing the changes and seeing what more my bike has to offer.
Additionally, while droning on and on about bikes to a friend I was offered an F3 shock for the price of a six-pack. I guess I'll be mucking with this and looking for the early-model heavy spring to put on this shock. In any case, it sounds like an excellent opportunity to continue screwing around with my machine and calling desperately upon this board for help.

Thanks again!

-B

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