Two part question - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 35 Old 05-25-2011, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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Two part question

First: I skipped a tooth when riding hard in the straights the other day. Checked and the chain is tight with NO kinks. Checked and all the teeth on both sprockets look fine. Okay so I cleaned the chain. I went and gave it a deep clean so I took off the front sprocket cover first time I had it off. OMG the amount of build up in there. So I cleaned it out real well. So question one is why did I skip a tooth?
Second after cleaning the chain I now hear a knocking sound coming from the front sprocket area. I even hear it at speed. What the heck is this noise and what should I do?

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post #2 of 35 Old 05-25-2011, 06:31 PM
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maybe you could post up a few pictures of your chain, sprockets, and trans. output shaft and we could help you solve your problem?

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post #3 of 35 Old 05-25-2011, 06:33 PM
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How may miles on the chain & sprockets?

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post #4 of 35 Old 05-25-2011, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07919Dave View Post
First: I skipped a tooth when riding hard in the straights the other day. Checked and the chain is tight with NO kinks. Checked and all the teeth on both sprockets look fine. Okay so I cleaned the chain. I went and gave it a deep clean so I took off the front sprocket cover first time I had it off. OMG the amount of build up in there. So I cleaned it out real well. So question one is why did I skip a tooth?
Second after cleaning the chain I now hear a knocking sound coming from the front sprocket area. I even hear it at speed. What the heck is this noise and what should I do?
How do you know you skipped a tooth if all the teeth are there and the chain slack is OK and the chain is still tight re clearances ?
Maybe you felt something get caught between the chain and most likely, the rear sprocket ?

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post #5 of 35 Old 05-25-2011, 07:17 PM
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Are you sure that it is a chain/sprocket issue. Could it be that the gears in the transmission were not fully engaged when you accelerated and you felt the them disengage and then re-engage?


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post #6 of 35 Old 05-25-2011, 08:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james_kraska View Post
maybe you could post up a few pictures of your chain, sprockets, and trans. output shaft and we could help you solve your problem?
I will have to do that tomorrow for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
How may miles on the chain & sprockets?
Unsure. However, I am still in the green and when I clean it there is no visable ware on the teeth. Chain is a DID.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
How do you know you skipped a tooth if all the teeth are there and the chain slack is OK and the chain is still tight re clearances ?
Maybe you felt something get caught between the chain and most likely, the rear sprocket ?
Well, I changed gears and it gave me that honda clunk into the gear. I then went back to WOT and about two seconds into it, it certinaly felt like and sounded like the chain jumped a tooth, I then back down from wot and took it easy the rest of the way home. It was raining that night and I was on a dry part of the road when I went WOT so that I could make it home before it started to poor again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ST-DocLizard1 View Post
Are you sure that it is a chain/sprocket issue. Could it be that the gears in the transmission were not fully engaged when you accelerated and you felt the them disengage and then re-engage?
Doc
Could have been but as I stated above I let it go in to gear heard it engage and then went back to WOT. Two seconds in it sounded and felt like it jumped a tooth.

I'll try to get a video too so y'all can hear the knocking noise. I might just have to take everything apart and clean each part by hand.

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post #7 of 35 Old 05-26-2011, 08:43 AM
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IF your chain and sprockets are in decent shape and the slack is correct, I think it is impossible to jump a tooth.

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post #8 of 35 Old 05-26-2011, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
IF your chain and sprockets are in decent shape and the slack is correct, I think it is impossible to jump a tooth.
I'm thinking along these lines as well.

Also, usually the clunking noise coming from the chain area, is usually an indication of incorrect chain tension (from my experience anyway). I suspect (happy to be corrected) that it is the chain slapping against the wishbone.

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post #9 of 35 Old 05-26-2011, 12:33 PM
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momentary false neutral?

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post #10 of 35 Old 05-26-2011, 02:32 PM
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tire slipped on a banana peel?

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post #11 of 35 Old 05-28-2011, 02:23 PM
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Dave,

It's interesting you should bring this up. I'm having a similar issue, and just had not posted up about it yet...

My chain slack needs to be adjusted, it is too loose at the moment. When I release the clutch and accelerate from a stop, I hear a clickety-click type noise for a second or two...it's worse if I haven't cleaned the chain recently. My best guess is the chain slack allows the chain to slap up & down, kind of like if you take a belt in your hands and snap it taut...which can't be good for the chain, im sure. I also think the crud on the chain can gum it up so that it kinks for just a moment as it comes around the front sprocket and then makes the noise as it stretches/straightens back to normal.

at least I hope thats what it is!

I'm glad you mentioned this, I was beginning to think it meant that my chain was kaput...or something worse!

Let me know what you figure out...I'm currently down in Haiti for a couple weeks, but I'll try to meet up with you when I get back.





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post #12 of 35 Old 05-28-2011, 08:04 PM Thread Starter
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Enjoy Haiti! Okay folks a video will be up tomorrow on everything I am talking about.

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post #13 of 35 Old 05-28-2011, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07919Dave View Post
Enjoy Haiti! Okay folks a video will be up tomorrow on everything I am talking about.
I'm keen to see it !

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post #14 of 35 Old 06-02-2011, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Here is a video of what the noise sounds like. Sorry it took so long. Between 12hr work days, the gym and 40mph winds it was kind of hard to get a video. The winds kept me from opening up my garage to let enough light in so we can see the vid. Also, when I watch the vid it makes the chain seem like it is way out of specs but I assure you it is not this way in real life. However, I did tighten it just a quarter turn after and the noise is still there. Let me know what you think.

YouTube - ‪Noise from front sprocket: Honda 919‬‏

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post #15 of 35 Old 06-02-2011, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07919Dave View Post
Here is a video of what the noise sounds like. Sorry it took so long. Between 12hr work days, the gym and 40mph winds it was kind of hard to get a video. The winds kept me from opening up my garage to let enough light in so we can see the vid. Also, when I watch the vid it makes the chain seem like it is way out of specs but I assure you it is not this way in real life. However, I did tighten it just a quarter turn after and the noise is still there. Let me know what you think.

YouTube - ‪Noise from front sprocket: Honda 919‬‏
1
It may be the angle, but you chain looks way way tight to me.
The spec is 30 - 40 mm of free play at mid point along the run.
I never run less than 35.
Yours appears to be around 25.

2
I hear the knocking, a very distinct knocking at that.
With the chain not being slack, it is impossible for chain rub being the source.
The chain appears to track nicely and make the tight radius turn at the front sprocket without any difficulty.
What is the condition of the front sprocket teeth ? What little I see suggests decent to OK, but the question needs to be asked.
Also, if you grab you chain half way around your rear sprocket horizontal to the axle centreline, and pull it away horizontally, how much does it lift off ? Just a bit ?
If you give your rear wheel a good shot with your foot so it spins quickly for a few revs, does the chain appear to track without kinks and tight spots ?

Now for a wild "maybe guess" IF you find all is good, in other words chain and sprockets are OK.
We can be pretty sure that the chain is not contacting at any point.
The knocking sound does not sound like the snapping sound of a duff chain with busted or tight rollers on the ping.
So, what can make a knocking sound like that ?
MAYBE a toasted countershaft bearing as sits in the engine case right behind the front sprocket.
MAYBE from excessive chain tension.
Remove the front sprocket, and hold the chain away from the countershaft (wire it to some handy place or bolt) and try to do a countershaft bearing check.
Rock the countershaft.
Turn it over by hand in neutral.
See what you can feel.
Pre 1973 CB750 Hondas were known for knocking out countershaft bearings, and drag starts were the primary cause, but too tight a chain was also known to be a cause.

I doubt very much that a duff wheel bearing is signalling that strongly up to the front, but that's another thing to check as well.

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post #16 of 35 Old 06-02-2011, 01:32 PM
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I thought that the chain will actually be a bit tighter when the wheel is lifted off the ground, you should be testing the correct chain sag when the bike is resting on the wheel (as it will be that way anyway when riding).

Are you sure the sound isn't from the chain hitting the chain guard or something else on the top of the swingarm? Again, this could be because the bike sitting off the ground just changing the travel of the chain (at least in the forward motion, can't really explain why you can't hear it in reverse).

I get a similar sound, but only when suspended. When on the ground, I don't hear it. But my chain is also shot. I need to replace it, lol.

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post #17 of 35 Old 06-02-2011, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
I thought that the chain will actually be a bit tighter when the wheel is lifted off the ground, you should be testing the correct chain sag when the bike is resting on the wheel (as it will be that way anyway when riding).

Are you sure the sound isn't from the chain hitting the chain guard or something else on the top of the swingarm? Again, this could be because the bike sitting off the ground just changing the travel of the chain (at least in the forward motion, can't really explain why you can't hear it in reverse).

I get a similar sound, but only when suspended. When on the ground, I don't hear it. But my chain is also shot. I need to replace it, lol.
Hmmm, g00gl3it got me good in one sense. I have never ever ever once in my life checked or adjusted a chain while on the lean stand.
I've either used a centre stand or a race stand. I do all my 919 checks and adjustments on a race stand.
A chain adjustment can not be properly done without a spin test after setting it.
The reason is this, there are runouts on the front and rear sprockets. Through a number of rotations, a range of chain tensions will result. The tightest ones are the ones make sure you are OK on. This is not the problem it used to be, I'm amazed at how accurate today's good sprockets are compared to factory items of the 70s.
But a spin test on todays sprockets will still reveal a range of chain tensions through a number of revolutions.
Another factor is the pin/roller clearances but I think that is quite secondary to the sprocket runouts.
Lean stand bikes are notorious for wrong chain adjustments and being dirty - because lean stands don't lend themselves towards Best Practices.

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post #18 of 35 Old 06-02-2011, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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My father in law tells me to have it on the side stand and have weight on it but I have always put it on the center stand and adjusted it. I don't think I have seen it written down any place that says which way is right or wrong.

I will just take it apart tomorrow and spin the shaft. I don't see any kinking at all and the chain pulls from the rear sprocket just a bit. I will say this again. The noise only started to happen AFTER I cleaned out all the junk from the front sprocket area. With 13k on the bike I don't think the bearings have gone bad just yet. And I dot see any play in then and no noise but when I have the wheel off tomorrow I will spin them by hand as well.

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post #19 of 35 Old 06-03-2011, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07919Dave View Post
My father in law tells me to have it on the side stand and have weight on it but I have always put it on the center stand and adjusted it. I don't think I have seen it written down any place that says which way is right or wrong.

I will just take it apart tomorrow and spin the shaft. I don't see any kinking at all and the chain pulls from the rear sprocket just a bit. I will say this again. The noise only started to happen AFTER I cleaned out all the junk from the front sprocket area. With 13k on the bike I don't think the bearings have gone bad just yet. And I dot see any play in then and no noise but when I have the wheel off tomorrow I will spin them by hand as well.
Maybe it was already happening, you just couldn't hear it behind all that gunk?

And I don't remember the owner's manual stating whether or not the rear wheel had to be off the ground to check chain tension/slack. I would think they would assume not every owner would have a way of raising the rear of the bike. I would honestly like to know the best way to adjust it, I just barely got a rear stand, so I've only had limited time to play with it.

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post #20 of 35 Old 06-03-2011, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Hmmm, g00gl3it got me good in one sense. I have never ever ever once in my life checked or adjusted a chain while on the lean stand.
I've either used a centre stand or a race stand. I do all my 919 checks and adjustments on a race stand.
A chain adjustment can not be properly done without a spin test after setting it.
The reason is this, there are runouts on the front and rear sprockets. Through a number of rotations, a range of chain tensions will result. The tightest ones are the ones make sure you are OK on. This is not the problem it used to be, I'm amazed at how accurate today's good sprockets are compared to factory items of the 70s.
But a spin test on todays sprockets will still reveal a range of chain tensions through a number of revolutions.
Another factor is the pin/roller clearances but I think that is quite secondary to the sprocket runouts.
Lean stand bikes are notorious for wrong chain adjustments and being dirty - because lean stands don't lend themselves towards Best Practices.
Good info Mcromo44, thanks for that.

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post #21 of 35 Old 06-03-2011, 03:48 PM
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Try re-lubing the chain generously!

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post #22 of 35 Old 06-03-2011, 04:58 PM Thread Starter
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SHIT! I can't find my service maual. Anyone know where I can get one cheap and fast?

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post #23 of 35 Old 06-03-2011, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
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SHIT! I can't find my service maual. Anyone know where I can get one cheap and fast?
PM me, send me your email address. I have one in our shared Dropbox folder.

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post #24 of 35 Old 06-04-2011, 06:14 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks googl3it! But.....I found it the wife hid it on me. She put it in a box in the garage and off of the book shelf where I had it. At least I got most of the house cleaned yesterday looking for it.

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post #25 of 35 Old 06-04-2011, 04:09 PM Thread Starter
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Okay so I took the damn wheel off and now there is no noise when I spin the drive sprocket. So can I get kerosine at HomeDepot? I am just going to spend the next couple of day cleaning that damn chain and the rest of the swing arm area.

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post #26 of 35 Old 06-04-2011, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07919Dave View Post
Okay so I took the damn wheel off and now there is no noise when I spin the drive sprocket. So can I get kerosine at HomeDepot? I am just going to spend the next couple of day cleaning that damn chain and the rest of the swing arm area.
Any noise you spin the rear wheel? You could put it back on with no chain and spin it.

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post #27 of 35 Old 06-04-2011, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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Good point. But I spun the bearings by hand and they where smooth and quite. Scratching my head on this. But I will clean everything that is dirty and just start from scratch again.

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post #28 of 35 Old 06-04-2011, 06:33 PM
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I have had a similar noise after adjusting my chain when I had it just a bit tight. The puzzling thing is that yours does it at speed.

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post #29 of 35 Old 06-04-2011, 06:42 PM
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that chain is WAY too tight! ... your chain is going to be tightest when the front shaft, swingarm pivot and rear axle all line up. and your chain should still have slack there.

have you inspected the actual rubber that wraps around the swingarm?

its hard to tell in the vid but are the teeth cupped at all... i have seen it where the sprocket is cupped just nuff to grab the roller and pull it around just a lil further than tangent to the line of travel causing weird noise.

Also it might not make the noise without the chain on because there is no pulling action of the weight of the chain on the front sprocket.. which could be all thats needed to make the noise.

But id be willing to bet its something external... is the chain hitting on the inside of the case, between the sprocket and the case... or where it passes the peg mount?

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post #30 of 35 Old 06-04-2011, 07:36 PM
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I typically adjust my chain so that it barely kisses the bottom of the swingarm with the weight of the bike on it. I would agree with every one so far, clean it up and readjust it looser than you currently have it.



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post #31 of 35 Old 06-04-2011, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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It wasn't hitting it before I cleaned it then I clean it and it made the noise. I then adjusted after I saw the video cause i thought it was loose but te boise was there before i adjusted How loose do you guys keep your chain? I took a ruler out there and it flexed right 32mm. If I have to go out to 40mm right at the extream edge of spec then I will. 30mm to 40mm is what the service manual says it correct tension on the chain.

It was dirty as hell under there and I have begun to clean everything out. I guess the lesson learned is not not trust the PO even when he tells you he babied the he'll out of it. Guess he didn't know how to clean.

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post #32 of 35 Old 06-04-2011, 08:30 PM
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Another vote for "too tight". I like my chain on the slacker side than too tight, just to be safe.

Using the stand does bring up a good point, since I raise the R6 on a spool stand vs my 919 on its center stand.

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post #33 of 35 Old 06-05-2011, 12:27 PM
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To tight,and maybe out of line as in the side plates hit the side of the sprocket tooth,which pops as it slides over.
also the 919 likes to be on the loose side of the adjusment scale.
Rember to look for the tightest spot in the chain to adjust from,as it may not have the same slack all the way round.

Center stand on the 919 will be fine as it will loosen slightly when placed back down.That said rear stands that lift fron the swing arm are best...

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post #34 of 35 Old 06-09-2011, 07:51 AM Thread Starter
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Okay everything is put back together greased, lubed and torque properly all to the service manuals specifications. Chain back again into the 32mm range of movement and now I have no noise. I possible had some dirt somewhere in there that was causing the noise but I am not sure. All I know now is that damn thing is pristine all the way around the chain and under the chain guard. Took her to work this morning and everything feels the way it should. Thanks for all the help.

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post #35 of 35 Old 06-09-2011, 08:20 AM
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that noise is the pins and rollers pinching from being too tight not from dirt. but you know it was too tight now as it's looser and quiet.service manual says check chain on side stand. but a race stand should result in the same effect. that was absolutely too tight. 1-3/16-1 1/2 inches at the mid point of the run. if your gonna do it on the center stand be on the 40 mm end of the range.

'04 Honda 919, Candy apple red met., 17/44t sprockets,f-16 windscreen,delkevic ss exhaust,Tharbars,givi engine bars, billet alum. led turns w/ running lights,red adj.levers from china, bar end mirrors,grip heaters,adj. foot peg brackets,adj. bar risers,dunlop Q2(that are better than your pp 2ct,lol)bike wired for gps and phone charger
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