The Dumbest Problem - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 12:05 AM Thread Starter
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The Dumbest Problem

I changed the tires on the bike today. What is normally a routine without any problems, tonight was different. Rear wheel, no problem, mounted and balanced in about 15 minutes. Tire machines work wonders. Front wheel, 5 hours and I finally gave up. My brakes are dragging bad. If I throw the wheel as hard as I can, I get maybe half a rotation. I spent hours trying every single possible combination of things that maybe I messed up. I made sure I installed the wheel EXACTLY as the manual states. I also tried every other way that it didn't state. The front brakes did NOT drag at all before I changed the wheel(you could just barely hear the pads kiss the rotor, but it would generate no heat--wheel would spin with virtually no resistance), and BOTH calipers drag after. The throttle side rotor sits centered perfectly inside the caliper, while the clutch side has the rotor nearly touching the medial side of the caliper. The wheel looks to be perfectly centered inside the fender, at least to my eye. And beyond that, when I hold the brakes and rock the bike, I get lots of clicks and pops from the front end which I feel like weren't there before the tire change. WTF?

A job that is the easiest thing for me to think of, somehow went wrong in every way. I've had issues with centering wheels in the past, but it was always something simple like getting the forks to situate themselves on the axle, or the cups being the wrong way around. I've tried my best to research, but found no answers. I managed to make the 10 mile ride home tonight, and I could feel them dragging the whole way. After trying to fix this problem outside in the night, as it started to rain at 2am, after banging my head on things and breaking wheels off of stools, I have given up. I am embarrassed that I cannot properly install a front wheel, but I can't take it anymore. If anyone has any ideas that may help or things I should check again, please help.

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post #2 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 12:14 AM
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Where are the clicks and pops coming from?

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post #3 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 12:59 AM
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I have no clue other than you have the wheel spacers on the wrong sides. I've done that before.....

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post #4 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 04:01 AM
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Look for a post by Mcromo (sp?), there is a procedure for settling the front axle, can't locate on phone now.

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post #5 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 06:11 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
Look for a post by Mcromo (sp?), there is a procedure for settling the front axle, can't locate on phone now.
Yep, I know the one. I have tried it

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post #6 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 06:14 AM
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As mentioned check the front spacers. They are different & the manual does not bother to point out which goes where.

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post #7 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 06:15 AM
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It's been about a year since I did mine, but I remember counting the number of turns and realizing I didn't need to do that. Meaning that it only went in one way. Again, it's been over a year, but isn't it self centering?

I just looked at a video to remind me.

1. check that it's not reversed, meaning the wheel has one direction. Should be marked somewhere with an arrow.

2. remove the brakes and see how free it spins without the brakes. Loosen up and see at what point it starts to bind. See if you can get it to not bind without the brakes.

3. add the brakes and see how they center up.

I'm guessing you got the axle, pinch bolts etc... wrong or the wheel is pointing the wrong way. Maybe the Left/Right disks are offset differently.

Open the brakes up as a LAST option. If you didn't close the brakes, they should go back on the same way. If you open the brakes and make it work, you still don't have the problem fixed. If you closed the brakes, you wouldn't have been able to get them back on without bleeding.

1st guess, you got the wheel backwards, look for direction arrow.

2nd guess, you got the axle mounted wrong, IIRC the bold on the right is some kind of "set bolt" that makes sure it's all lined up. Don't you do the pinch bolts before the set bolt? Then final tight on the pinch bolts.

3rd is that you closed the brakes without the disk in there

4th is that you got something in the brakes and they need to be cleaned.

5th got something in the axle area that needs to be cleaned out.

Also, don't forget the disk is supposed to float. Those buttons around the disks are supposed to spin and need to be cleaned from time to time.

Someone posted a video where he took a nut and bolt and brake cleaner. Put the bolt thru the button and tighten it up. Once tight, apply brake cleaner and spin the bolt. The allows the disk to float.

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post #8 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 06:23 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryce919er View Post
As mentioned check the front spacers. They are different & the manual does not bother to point out which goes where.
There is only one way they can go, I tried to put them on wrong and the axle will not slide all the way through

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post #9 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 06:34 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
It's been about a year since I did mine, but I remember counting the number of turns and realizing I didn't need to do that. Meaning that it only went in one way. Again, it's been over a year, but isn't it self centering?

I just looked at a video to remind me.

1. check that it's not reversed, meaning the wheel has one direction. Should be marked somewhere with an arrow.

2. remove the brakes and see how free it spins without the brakes. Loosen up and see at what point it starts to bind. See if you can get it to not bind without the brakes.

3. add the brakes and see how they center up.

I'm guessing you got the axle, pinch bolts etc... wrong or the wheel is pointing the wrong way. Maybe the Left/Right disks are offset differently.

Open the brakes up as a LAST option. If you didn't close the brakes, they should go back on the same way. If you open the brakes and make it work, you still don't have the problem fixed. If you closed the brakes, you wouldn't have been able to get them back on without bleeding.

1st guess, you got the wheel backwards, look for direction arrow.

2nd guess, you got the axle mounted wrong, IIRC the bold on the right is some kind of "set bolt" that makes sure it's all lined up. Don't you do the pinch bolts before the set bolt? Then final tight on the pinch bolts.

3rd is that you closed the brakes without the disk in there

4th is that you got something in the brakes and they need to be cleaned.

5th got something in the axle area that needs to be cleaned out.

Also, don't forget the disk is supposed to float. Those buttons around the disks are supposed to spin and need to be cleaned from time to time.

Someone posted a video where he took a nut and bolt and brake cleaner. Put the bolt thru the button and tighten it up. Once tight, apply brake cleaner and spin the bolt. The allows the disk to float.
The arrows on the rotor are pointed in the correct direction, which leads me to believe I have the wheel in the right orientation.

I have squeezed the brake without the pads on to make sure the pistons are all moving properly, and pushed them back in and everything felt normal.

As for dirt or grime in the axle, it slides in and out so easily that it falls out of the wheel if it's tilted over slightly.

The wheel spins like a dream with no calipers on.

When I do have the wheel on, it's only off center by a little bit. The gap from fork to rotor is about a dimes width more than it is on the other side. I'll take some pictures in a little bit

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post #10 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 07:00 AM Thread Starter
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The one that looks worse is on the clutch lever side

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post #11 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Okay it's fixed. After looking at older pictures of my front end, I saw that the axle was pulled too far in. I loosened the axle nut, tapped the axle through so that the line on the axle matched the fork, and then tightened the clutch side pinch bolts, then torqued, then set the forks, and then the final pinch bolts. No more drag, rotors are centered perfectly inside the calipers. I don't know why the normal method doesn't work, but I guess the results are all that matter. When I forgot i had this problem and run into it again in a few months, hopefully this thread will remind me....thanks for the help folks

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post #12 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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Actually, while this helped, they still drag and create heat. Plus, I realized I'm squeezing the forks. Even when everything is loose on the front end, the brakes still drag. I don't get it. I would look more into the brakes, but it doesn't make sense both would stop working at the same time only after I changed the tire. The rotors won't line up properly in the calipers no matter what. It's aligned on the throttle side but not the clutch side. Even on the side it is aligned, it's drags on that side too. I'm at a complete loss

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post #13 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanktm View Post
There is only one way they can go, I tried to put them on wrong and the axle will not slide all the way through

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Investigate this assumption - I don't think it's true that they won't go on another way, and I think this is what is causing your problem.
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post #14 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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I checked again. I wish it was that simple. It pains me to say that they are on the right the right way. I watched a few videos of people taking apart their wheels and reassembling them and mine is arranged the same way

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post #15 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 01:55 PM
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Can someone post the correct process for installing the axle to the forks?

I haven't done mine in a long time, and I'm not 100% sure how I did it. I don't even remember the spacers, but I'm careful to put things back where I got them.

So the brakes are so close that they rub, even if you back them off, they don't float enough to compensated? I assume they float like a car brake does.

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post #16 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanktm View Post
I checked again. I wish it was that simple. It pains me to say that they are on the right the right way. I watched a few videos of people taking apart their wheels and reassembling them and mine is arranged the same way

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Where is the indicator line of the left side outboard axle stub?
Just showing at the edge of the outboard fork leg axle bore?

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post #17 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 02:13 PM
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Did you ever swap the spacers?

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post #18 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 02:13 PM
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Knowing it was all fit up nicely before, and that no components were change, and assuming the spacers are correctly positioned, I would suspect and incorrect axle fitment method.
I would then suggest you try the following:
Raise front end.
Release axle end bolt.
Release all 4 axle pinch bolts.
Align the left side axle indicator line right to edge of fork leg axle bore.
Tighten left side axle pinch bolts ONLY.
Tighten axle end nut.
Tighten right side axle pinch bolts.
If this does not remedy it, then there can only be a spacer issue.
BUT hoping all will actually be OK, then next revisit the left pinch bolts after getting the front wheel back down on the floor.
Loosen the two left side axle pinch bolts.
Do a few jounces of the front end.
See where the indicator ring has shifted to, if it has at all moved.
If it has moved, it should be by very little.
Trusting it has not moved much, retighten the left side axle pinch bolts.

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post #19 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
Look for a post by Mcromo (sp?), there is a procedure for settling the front axle, can't locate on phone now.
The search function is not working for me at present, so I can't locate the thread and pull it up for nath'

The write up is also in the drop box, for those that have access to it and want the write up.

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post #20 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Knowing it was all fit up nicely before, and that no components were change, and assuming the spacers are correctly positioned, I would suspect and incorrect axle fitment method.
I would then suggest you try the following:
Raise front end.
Release axle end bolt.
Release all 4 axle pinch bolts.
Align the left side axle indicator line right to edge of fork leg axle bore.
Tighten left side axle pinch bolts ONLY.
Tighten axle end nut.
Tighten right side axle pinch bolts.
If this does not remedy it, then there can only be a spacer issue.
BUT hoping all will actually be OK, then next revisit the left pinch bolts after getting the front wheel back down on the floor.
Loosen the two left side axle pinch bolts.
Do a few jounces of the front end.
See where the indicator ring has shifted to, if it has at all moved.
If it has moved, it should be by very little.
Trusting it has not moved much, retighten the left side axle pinch bolts.
What and where is the indicator ring?

I just went out and looked at mine, I don't remember an indicator ring.

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post #21 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
What and where is the indicator ring?

I just went out and looked at mine, I don't remember an indicator ring.
The left hand axle end protrudes.
There is an axle extractor hole drilled through, where one can slide in a screwdriver to either push in or pull out the axle with a twisting motion.
Inboard of that is a small machined groove around the circumference of the axle.
It's purpose is to indicate correct axial positioning of the axle
A straight front end that is correctly fitted up, should have that ring just showing as described above.

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post #22 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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Mc, doing what you said earlier pinches the forks a bit. Is that OK in order to align the wheel right?

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post #23 of 67 Old 06-02-2018, 09:57 PM
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I'm still curious about the noise from the front end. Like something loose? or something hitting?
Any chance of some pics of the axle area. Front on and from each side.

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post #24 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
The left hand axle end protrudes.
There is an axle extractor hole drilled through, where one can slide in a screwdriver to either push in or pull out the axle with a twisting motion.
Inboard of that is a small machined groove around the circumference of the axle.
It's purpose is to indicate correct axial positioning of the axle
A straight front end that is correctly fitted up, should have that ring just showing as described above.
Wow, did not know that. So I can't get a finger nail into that grove. I think I can see it, but I can feel it. If I use the edge of a feeler gauge, should it catch that?

If it's too far in, what's the effect?

Can someone take a pick of one that's done correctly?

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post #25 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
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Mc, doing what you said earlier pinches the forks a bit. Is that OK in order to align the wheel right?

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I'm not sure of what exactly you mean.
Can you please add a bit more info?
Also, what do you mean by "pinches the forks a bit".

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post #26 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Wow, did not know that. So I can't get a finger nail into that grove. I think I can see it, but I can feel it. If I use the edge of a feeler gauge, should it catch that?

If it's too far in, what's the effect?

Can someone take a pick of one that's done correctly?
If you can see it, things are OK.

IF the forks tubes are straight and the front end has been properly aligned, the axle should be incapable of going in to far to the right.
The axle location is dictated by the register of its shoulder against the inside of the right fork leg.
The stack is dicatated by the wheel and spacers.

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post #27 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 11:49 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I'm not sure of what exactly you mean.
Can you please add a bit more info?
Also, what do you mean by "pinches the forks a bit".
https://streamable.com/9s5tw

This was the result of doing the method you listed before. When directly on the indicator line, this gets the least amount of brake drag, and the wheel is perfectly centered. I can get about one full rotation with a good spin. But, it squeezes the forks together like in the video above, and I can feel that the forks don't move as freely as they do after I "jostle" the bike around so they sit on the axle as they want to. After the jostle, the clutch side rotor now sits in the caliper slightly off, following the motion the forks move off the axle indicator line. They now drag worse. Maybe half a turn with a good spin. http://puu.sh/AyqRY/6c8d05df08.jpg

Here are pictures of the current spacers positioning.
http://puu.sh/Ayr3r/9236a248bc.jpg
http://puu.sh/Ayr47/2bddafb439.jpg

I also removed the calipers once more and made sure that the wheel moves freely with no calipers, the pistons extend and retract with ease, and the pads themselves can move easily within the caliper.

I still have no idea what is causing my brakes to drag. I greatly appreciate all the help in trying to figure this out

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post #28 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanktm View Post
https://streamable.com/9s5tw

This was the result of doing the method you listed before. When directly on the indicator line, this gets the least amount of brake drag, and the wheel is perfectly centered. I can get about one full rotation with a good spin. But, it squeezes the forks together like in the video above, and I can feel that the forks don't move as freely as they do after I "jostle" the bike around so they sit on the axle as they want to. After the jostle, the clutch side rotor now sits in the caliper slightly off, following the motion the forks move off the axle indicator line. They now drag worse. Maybe half a turn with a good spin. http://puu.sh/AyqRY/6c8d05df08.jpg

Here are pictures of the current spacers positioning.
http://puu.sh/Ayr3r/9236a248bc.jpg
http://puu.sh/Ayr47/2bddafb439.jpg

I also removed the calipers once more and made sure that the wheel moves freely with no calipers, the pistons extend and retract with ease, and the pads themselves can move easily within the caliper.

I still have no idea what is causing my brakes to drag. I greatly appreciate all the help in trying to figure this out
I saw how much the left leg sprung out when the pinch bolts were released.
A truly straight and aligned front end will not do that.
If the right side was done properly such that for sure the axle shoulder is butted up to the fork leg, then there is a front end problem, my guess being bent tubes and/or triple trees misalignment and/or bent triple clamp and/or steering head bearing involvement.
Has the bike ever been dropped and/or had the front end all apart?
All you did was remove the front wheel, correct?
If that is the case, then whomever was in there last, pushed the left fork leg in to the line and did up the pinch bolts to hold it in that position.
Suggest you try that and see what it does to help matters and go from there.

I'm away out of time zone with family, but am watching this thread.
You must be tearing your hair out by now!

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post #29 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 01:59 PM Thread Starter
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Pulling my hair out is a light way to put it

If I squeeze the fork legs, suspension movement is slightly impaired. I have had the forks out to change the fork oil, but everything was put back together without any issues. I do remember that my headlight assembly and things that were connected to it were slightly crooked for a while. The forks and handlebars were straight, but the headlight and turn signals were a bit off. I remember my father telling me he fixed it when I was eating lunch. That is the only thing that has touched my front end since the last time the wheel was loosened. Perhaps I need to reset my forks in the triple tree and see if that helps at all.

Another thing I noticed was that after riding it a bit despite the drag, there was an area of the rotor that was discolored. The inside inner third of the left rotor had darkened, but only that inner third. I'm guessing that's where the most pad is hitting the rotors, even though both calipers drag an even amount.

Even with everything loose, the brakes still drag. Or, with one caliper on and other off, or vice versa.



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post #30 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
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Pulling my hair out is a light way to put it

If I squeeze the fork legs, suspension movement is slightly impaired. I have had the forks out to change the fork oil, but everything was put back together without any issues. I do remember that my headlight assembly and things that were connected to it were slightly crooked for a while. The forks and handlebars were straight, but the headlight and turn signals were a bit off. I remember my father telling me he fixed it when I was eating lunch. That is the only thing that has touched my front end since the last time the wheel was loosened. Perhaps I need to reset my forks in the triple tree and see if that helps at all.

Another thing I noticed was that after riding it a bit despite the drag, there was an area of the rotor that was discolored. The inside inner third of the left rotor had darkened, but only that inner third. I'm guessing that's where the most pad is hitting the rotors, even though both calipers drag an even amount.

Even with everything loose, the brakes still drag. Or, with one caliper on and other off, or vice versa.



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I'd be resetting the triples for sure.
Always revisit every relevant element touched before a new problem rears its head.
Be sure to check your steering head bearings as well.

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post #31 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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I believe my steering head bearings might be a bit loose. They make a slight click when I rock the bike back and forth on the brakes. I was going to get to them as well, but I didn't see how they would affect the alignment.

At least, I think it's them clicking

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post #32 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
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I believe my steering head bearings might be a bit loose. They make a slight click when I rock the bike back and forth on the brakes. I was going to get to them as well, but I didn't see how they would affect the alignment.

At least, I think it's them clicking
Duff steering head bearings can allow for misalignment of the triples during setup of the tubes in the triples.

Steering head bearings can only be properly checked and set with forks removed.

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post #33 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 05:39 PM
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Your video where you loosen up the pinch bolt is different from mine. I didn't see your line, but mine stuck out more than yours.

The hole looks to be dead center and the disk looks to be right on the center line.

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post #34 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 05:49 PM
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I took some pics of my axle area.
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post #35 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 06:19 PM
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I took some pics of my axle area.
can't really see the line at that angle on the 1st pic. However, the hole looks centered. Can you see a line on the clutch side one?

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post #36 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 07:12 PM
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A close up pic of the axle clutch side.
I'm leaning towards the forks being the problem.
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post #37 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
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A close up pic of the axle clutch side.
I'm leaning towards the forks being the problem.
I was under the impression that the mark was on the other side of the tube. Isn't there a mark on at the end of the axle just inside of that thru hole on the clutch side?

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post #38 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 08:28 PM
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Oh OK. Another pic. From clutch side. I can just see a groove/line on the axle just as it's entering the hole in the fork.
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post #39 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 09:26 PM
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Oh OK. Another pic. From clutch side. I can just see a groove/line on the axle just as it's entering the hole in the fork.
Without double checking, that looks like it's inset more than mine. I was thinking it would be out a bit more, but IDK.

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post #40 of 67 Old 06-03-2018, 09:37 PM
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IDK either. For what's it's worth I have no brake drag at all, seems perfectly lined up at that position.

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