Switching to K&N filter, any problems? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 03:21 PM Thread Starter
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Switching to K&N filter, any problems?

I have a bone stock 06 919. I have a brand new K&N filter and the stock one is old.

Is there any downside to just running the K&N without any other mods?

I don't have a Power Commander and I don't want to change anything else at this time, just want a new filter and don't want to buy an OEM one.

I've seen where other have done intake mods, so I guess the EFI will adjust to the air flow but just want to make sure. I don't hear much about K&N on this site, but it was common on other bikes, but they were carb'd.

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post #2 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 03:57 PM
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My experiences with K&N filter fitted to a 919.
When my bike was stock I tried a K&N filter and my bike ran poorly. Most noticeable at low speed/low revs. A lot of surging, couldn't maintain a constant smooth engine speed low down. Now with wide open exhaust and a modified air intake I can use a K&N air filter. I think my mods leaned out the bike somewhat. But I think it only works cause I'm also using a power commander and am running a very rich map. I'm sure a power commander is necessary once you start messing with air intake and exhaust.
Hi-flow make the OEM air filter under license and their air filter is identical to the OEM one, just a different color. Also cheaper.
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post #3 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 04:44 PM
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My stock bike ran more poorly when I acquired it with a K&N filter. Like islandboy said, mostly down low. I replaced it with an OEM filter and there was a noticeable improvement. Now that Iíve switched to aftermarket exhaust I now once again have the dead spot below 2k rpms. I suppose I need a power commander.
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post #4 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 05:04 PM
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Meanwhile, mine's been fine for years with the BMC #299/12 item I have. I also had multi-run dyno tests done to compare it to stock, info as posted years ago. ( I also tested for sidecover air opening area, and seat on or off effects.) My bike has the flapper plate blocked wide open.

I also seem to recollect previous posts of people satisfied with K & Ns in their 919, but I can't remember any specifics and could be wrong in my recollection.

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post #5 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 05:06 PM
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I will make a note that the poor running condition of mine, could have been due to the poor condition of the filter.

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post #6 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 05:17 PM Thread Starter
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Well I pop'd it in and I won't be able to run the cover with this one, It's off by about 1/2". I'll have to get some larger screws to run that cover.

I'm also running it new without any oil.

So what some of you are saying is that it's just too free flowing to work well at low RPM and you'd need a PC and/or an exhaust mod to make it work right.

I wonder if I kick up the idle a bit if that would make a difference.

I also wonder why the EFI isn't adjusting the A/F mixture to account for this. I get that carbs need to be re-jetted, but EFI should auto-adjust.

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post #7 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 05:33 PM
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I don't think that's right, the filter and cover I mean. My K&N filter and intake snorkel fitted perfectly
Further to what Mcromo said, many have been happy with the K&N air filter. But some have had trouble.
Is the BMC filter much different to a K&N?
I remember reading somewhere that the free flowing K&N filter can cause disruptive turbulence inside the airbox, possibly throwing off the MAP sensor.

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post #8 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Well I pop'd it in and I won't be able to run the cover with this one, It's off by about 1/2". I'll have to get some larger screws to run that cover.

I'm also running it new without any oil.

So what some of you are saying is that it's just too free flowing to work well at low RPM and you'd need a PC and/or an exhaust mod to make it work right.

I wonder if I kick up the idle a bit if that would make a difference.

I also wonder why the EFI isn't adjusting the A/F mixture to account for this. I get that carbs need to be re-jetted, but EFI should auto-adjust.
My theory is that the filters act as airbox dampers.
Some bikes can really be badly screwed up by certain non OEM filters, a prime example being the RC51, as evidenced by LDH's rather exhaustive testing years ago.
Inadequate damping can only screw up the MAP sensing because of the pressure fluctuations, which I guess can vary significantly in terms of magnitude and cycle rate depending on the engine's condition of load.
Changing the idle speed will not change the damping effect of the filter.
I think that running it dry would aggravate any inadequate damping problem.
Keep in mind the 919 mass air flow determination system is just one step up from crude.
The addition of a hot wire MAF would help.
MAP without MAF is not remotely deadly accurate, but it is good enough for a fairly easy regulated pollutants levels IF the MAP sensor is seeing stable conditions.

It would be quite easy to prove/disprove my theory.
Someone could simply run with no filter at all, and see how that goes................................
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post #9 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
1
I don't think that's right, the filter and cover I mean. My K&N filter and intake snorkel fitted perfectly
2
Further to what Mcromo said, many have been happy with the K&N air filter. But some have had trouble.
3
Is the BMC filter much different to a K&N?
4
I remember reading somewhere that the free flowing K&N filter can cause disruptive turbulence inside the airbox, possibly throwing off the MAP sensor.
1
I think you are on to something, and the nominal 1/2 inch K' referred to is in zone of the mounting neck height, my guess is that the filter did not stay in proper position before the cover was being fastened in place.
2
That's my sense as well.
3
Yes, and I think the primary differences to be gauge of thread, thread count, thread swell from the oil, and maybe also the pleating geometry.
Further, BMC has, or used to have, two lines of filters for bikes, at least for some models.
They have/had a "race" line, and said don't use on the street but didn't say whether it was for filtration level or some other reason.
I think K & N has a race line as well, for some bikes and/or cars, whatever.
4
Free flowing in isolation can't be a problem.
Inadequate damping can.
And butchered air boxes can wreak havoc!
But counter to that, there were engines in the past that could be nicely woken up after good air box mod had been done.
I can't remember any specifics, but do remember reading at least one rather authoritative article on a particular bike, including reference to how many airboxes it took before they found beneficial mods and finished development of it.
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post #10 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Well I pop'd it in and I won't be able to run the cover with this one, It's off by about 1/2". I'll have to get some larger screws to run that cover.
Just in case you got shipped the wrong K & N, suggest you compare the height and end neck ID to the OEM item.
IF those all match, then my guess is that your K & N got out of position before you started screwing the cover on.

Please don't run it dry!
It's as much the oil as the weave that grabs the particulates, and it's the oil that holds the particulates.

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post #11 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
I don't think that's right, the filter and cover I mean. My K&N filter and intake snorkel fitted perfectly
Further to what Mcromo said, many have been happy with the K&N air filter. But some have had trouble.
Is the BMC filter much different to a K&N?
I remember reading somewhere that the free flowing K&N filter can cause disruptive turbulence inside the airbox, possibly throwing off the MAP sensor.
This filter came from another bike. The lip makes it stick out 1/2" longer than stock, so I'll cut that lip or get longer screws, but it's secure for now. I tried it out, because it wasn't being used and surprised how close it fit.

It's hard to imagine that the EFI system is so sensitive that a small change would throw it off. All the sensors are supposed to make it work better in different conditions. I remember discussion about carbs in high altitudes, but EFI was supposed to handle all this automatically.

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post #12 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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I'm kinda surprised more people haven't tried the K&N filter on this bike. It's a simple change.

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post #13 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 06:19 PM
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If you want when I get home I can post a pic of my K&N filter besides the OEM filter. So you can compare.

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post #14 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post

It's hard to imagine that the EFI system is so sensitive that a small change would throw it off. All the sensors are supposed to make it work better in different conditions. I remember discussion about carbs in high altitudes, but EFI was supposed to handle all this automatically.
Carbs meter by air velocity past the various sensing orifices and passages, not mass flow.
Carbs set up for the density of a certain altitude, see the resultant Air:Fuel ratio change to rich going up and lean going down, because of the air gets less dense as you go up.

EFT meters by mass flow.
You can't get razor sharp mass flow determinations by MAP alone, one also needs MAF.
Pressure fluctuations that don't reflect the engine state spook the MAP and the ECU sends the wrong pulse width signal to the injector and too little or too much is injected instead of the correct amount for the actual air mass flow condition.


You're an old time car guy, right?
A bad airbox condition, duff filter included, is akin to seeing fuel standoff above the stacks of a big carb'd big cammed ported engine at idle.
Granted it's not the same thing, but it is evidentiary of how easy it is to lose control of Air:Fuel ratio and coincidently experience Intake Reversion.

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post #15 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
If you want when I get home I can post a pic of my K&N filter besides the OEM filter. So you can compare.
I imagine it would look like the stock one in size. Mine is a "cone" one from another bike, but it's almost the exact same length.

If the issue is that it flows too much, I can make a restriction plate to cover it. I was surprised that the filter cover connected to the inside. Meaning the opening is about 4~4.5" and the opening in the cover is like 3~3.5". Clearly the filter is MUCH bigger than the opening in the cover.

That's why I question the "too much flow" being a problem. The whole filter cover is a flow restriction.

Years ago, someone built a vacuum gage system that measured the pressure before and after the filter, just to see how restrictive air boxes can really be.

My 700S has to little breathers that the whole damn engine has to breath thru, so it's hard to imagine that those aren't the primary restriction. Look at the path of the air on the 919.


Here's a mod that someone did: https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...ods-16065.html

He replace the whole air box cover and made a ram air. If a filter change to K&N causes problem, what does removal of the cover do?

Edit: here's a link to the older "ram air mod"
https://www.wristtwisters.com/f94/919-ram-air-16985.html

Sadly, the pics seem to be lost and it's some 10 years ago.

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post #16 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 07:18 PM
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Here ya go. Both filters, OEM and K&N. You can clearly see the K&N is more open. Also a pic of my modified air intake. I don't think the intake mod made much difference when running the OEM filter. Since the OEM filter is restrictive. But the mod and the K&N filter together opened things up a bit. I needed the power commander to tune though. The bike is running cooler, according to the temp gauge.
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post #17 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 07:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
Here ya go. Both filters, OEM and K&N. You can clearly see the K&N is more open. Also a pic of my modified air intake. I don't think the intake mod made much difference when running the OEM filter. Since the OEM filter is restrictive. But the mod and the K&N filter together opened things up a bit. I needed the power commander to tune though. The bike is running cooler, according to the temp gauge.
Where did you get the modified intake?

What happens if you didn't run the PC? I hear it's down in the low end, just above idle.

I would have guessed (based on the size of the OEM filter) the intake mod would have made a difference.

This is pretty odd because if this is true, the design of the 919 intake is so poor that it's a restriction at the filter. I get that no bike is perfect and this is "just a street bike", but the system is so weak that the EFI system can't even counter for a filter change?

What about riding in really code, sea level or in mountains? The EFI can account for that, but not a filter change?

Sounds like weak design to me.

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post #18 of 35 Old 04-30-2018, 08:18 PM
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I made the intake. I cut down a spare intake snorkel and fitted a 3" velocity stack.
Using the OEM filter I could swap between intakes and not alter engine performance. Just a little more noise and running a little cooler with velocity stack.
The K&N filter made it run poor low down. Very on/off feel to the throttle. Bad surge.
I've now got a pair of ridiculously loud open aftermarket end cans and a Delkevic Y link pipe. You can fit a soft drink can in the outlet. Prior to fitting these I had Delkevic end can. Both lots of end cans have needed quite different pc111usb maps to get the bike running well. But only with the wide open loud cans could I run the K&N filter and air intake mod. It helped. I used a Pvster map which had fuel added too and removed from down low. All the other maps made it run poorly.
I've not tried running without the pc111usb but I could go back to the stock map and swap filters and air intakes about and let you know what happens. My guess is that it will run crap.
When you compare power commander maps there are some big differences between them. Most of the maps are for different exhausts and air filters. My guess is the stock map is setup up for easy starting in all weather, running cool/safe engine temp, using a very effective but restrictive air cleaner, using heavily baffled and restrictive exhaust mufflers and running with a high load like you had a passenger on.

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post #19 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 04:52 AM
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I have a stock, and a K+N filter for the 599. I can't tell any difference.

I've had my 08 990 Super Duke for 8.5 years now. I recently had the Rottweiler foam air filter installed, along with getting all the smog plumbing removed. The bike was then Dyno tuned. I am here to tell you, with out a doubt, that bike runs noticeably stronger now.

There's probably a lot going on, inside the airbox of a 1000cc V2. I could see how an air filter change could throw things out of whack.

I've had both good and bad experiences with carbureted motorcycles. And I really lIke my little 599. But from now on, no more carbureted motorcycles for me!

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post #20 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 06:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post
I have a stock, and a K+N filter for the 599. I can't tell any difference.

I've had my 08 990 Super Duke for 8.5 years now. I recently had the Rottweiler foam air filter installed, along with getting all the smog plumbing removed. The bike was then Dyno tuned. I am here to tell you, with out a doubt, that bike runs noticeably stronger now.

There's probably a lot going on, inside the airbox of a 1000cc V2. I could see how an air filter change could throw things out of whack.

I've had both good and bad experiences with carbureted motorcycles. And I really lIke my little 599. But from now on, no more carbureted motorcycles for me!
+1 on the no more carb'd bikes. I had to push my other bike home 3 times because the carbs were flooding and I kept cleaning them. Just got tired of it.

Nice to hear to really made a difference after you got things dialed in.

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post #21 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 06:32 AM Thread Starter
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I made the intake. I cut down a spare intake snorkel and fitted a 3" velocity stack.
Using the OEM filter I could swap between intakes and not alter engine performance. Just a little more noise and running a little cooler with velocity stack.
The K&N filter made it run poor low down. Very on/off feel to the throttle. Bad surge.
I've now got a pair of ridiculously loud open aftermarket end cans and a Delkevic Y link pipe. You can fit a soft drink can in the outlet. Prior to fitting these I had Delkevic end can. Both lots of end cans have needed quite different pc111usb maps to get the bike running well. But only with the wide open loud cans could I run the K&N filter and air intake mod. It helped. I used a Pvster map which had fuel added too and removed from down low. All the other maps made it run poorly.
I've not tried running without the pc111usb but I could go back to the stock map and swap filters and air intakes about and let you know what happens. My guess is that it will run crap.
When you compare power commander maps there are some big differences between them. Most of the maps are for different exhausts and air filters. My guess is the stock map is setup up for easy starting in all weather, running cool/safe engine temp, using a very effective but restrictive air cleaner, using heavily baffled and restrictive exhaust mufflers and running with a high load like you had a passenger on.
So after you got everything setup, how much more power did it have?

I'm going to do a test run today. I'm going to take the OEM filter and cover with me. I might end up building a restrictor plate for the K&N. It's sad the Honda used a crap filter in order to set the tune on the engine. All they had to do was use a good flowing filter and tune the system for that. I get that that 919 isn't a performance bike like some others, but still.

I feel the same way about the cars that I've bought. All they had to do was a small mod and they would have gotten better performance.

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post #22 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 01:21 PM
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I don't know anything about electronics. But it seems to me, that if they wanted, Honda, Kehin, Bosch, Nisso, or whoever, could put a little more bandwidth in the ECU, so that modern motorcycles could in effect: Tune themselves.

KTM puts 2 maps in their ECU. Now, the second map is not perfect. It's a little rich. But it's better than nothing. You could get by with it. If you really want your KTM perfect, you still have to pay someone to put it on the Dyno for you.

But paying some one to Dyno Tune your bike, instead of tearing everything apart, and hoping you put in the right jets in the carburators, getting everything back together correctly, is such a blessing.

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post #23 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post

But paying some one to Dyno Tune your bike, instead of tearing everything apart, and hoping you put in the right jets in the carburators, getting everything back together correctly, is such a blessing.
Not when you are a professional carb tuner... I made way more money doing carbs than I ever have with Fi tuning.

Then again the money I make as a suspension tuner dwarfs the money I made on induction tuning period.

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post #24 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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I don't know anything about electronics. But it seems to me, that if they wanted, Honda, Kehin, Bosch, Nisso, or whoever, could put a little more bandwidth in the ECU, so that modern motorcycles could in effect: Tune themselves.

KTM puts 2 maps in their ECU. Now, the second map is not perfect. It's a little rich. But it's better than nothing. You could get by with it. If you really want your KTM perfect, you still have to pay someone to put it on the Dyno for you.

But paying some one to Dyno Tune your bike, instead of tearing everything apart, and hoping you put in the right jets in the carburators, getting everything back together correctly, is such a blessing.
I've been a programmer for many years. It's not that hard for a professional programmer to make a program that can load different data. They could put a USB or some other card reader to load as many maps as they wanted to.

It's sad they don't do this. I'm sure the aftermarket loves the fact that they can address this short coming, but it sucks for the buyers.

It's much like the suspension issues. They could have made it better at the production line and saved the buyers a ton.

I say the same thing about Apple's iPhones... I can pop a chip into a Samsung Edge, but NOT on an Apple iPhone. Simple things like dual sim, additional storage, etc... Pisses me off (but I still own one).

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post #25 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 05:02 PM
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Not when you are a professional carb tuner... I made way more money doing carbs than I ever have with Fi tuning.

Then again the money I make as a suspension tuner dwarfs the money I made on induction tuning period.
Modern era fueling and ignition really changed the equation.
Dead simple to get it running and often running well, by leaving it alone.

But all those clickers are so tempting, and tormenting for those not in the know.
Not lost on me is that there seems to be chassis guys for hire at many track day type events, let alone club races and such.
It's no wonder, as it seems to me that few invest time and energy in learning and understanding set up.

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post #26 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 05:28 PM
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It's much like the suspension issues. They could have made it better at the production line and saved the buyers a ton.

You're comparing apples to Zuchini's...

Suspension is built to a price point, generally the lowest, that will meet minimum liability criteria for hauling 380lbs of ass around on a public road.

Fuel Injection mapping is done to meet government mandated Rules & Regulations period. The bikes are not allowed to run in a manner that is stoichiometric let alone ideally tuned for performance. They are forced to breathe in a manner that abides by the testing methods placed upon them each government they are tested through. This is where Fi really shines because they can force the bike to do things that would not be possible in normal atmospheric conditions with Constant Velocity carbs. It allows them to richen or lean out the mixture at any rpm, throttle position, engine temp, run time, pressure, vacuum or really any variable defined by any sensor or moving part on the bike.
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post #27 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Modern era fueling and ignition really changed the equation.
Dead simple to get it running and often running well, by leaving it alone.

But all those clickers are so tempting, and tormenting for those not in the know.
Not lost on me is that there seems to be chassis guys for hire at many track day type events, let alone club races and such.
It's no wonder, as it seems to me that few invest time and energy in learning and understanding set up.
There is a lot of smoke and mirrors and bullshit with those guys too. They prey on the uneducated and pretend that what they are doing is some sort of mystical art or voodoo when it is nothing more than physics and math that the so-called tuners haven't even figured out yet. I run into so many "professionally tuned" bikes that are completely incorrect and hear a lot of that BS spewed to the point it just makes me sick. It gives legitimate tuners a really bad rap when there are so many scam artists out there and some of them are really big names in the industry - just fuckin clueless
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post #28 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 05:54 PM
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There is a lot of smoke and mirrors and bullshit with those guys too. They prey on the uneducated and pretend that what they are doing is some sort of mystical art or voodoo when it is nothing more than physics and math that the so-called tuners haven't even figured out yet. I run into so many "professionally tuned" bikes that are completely incorrect and hear a lot of that BS spewed to the point it just makes me sick. It gives legitimate tuners a really bad rap when there are so many scam artists out there and some of them are really big names in the industry - just fuckin clueless
There's the same potential problem with such types as there is with Painters and Drywallers in particular, at least here where we are.
Anybody can be one...............................

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post #29 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
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You're comparing apples to Zuchini's...

Suspension is built to a price point, generally the lowest, that will meet minimum liability criteria for hauling 380lbs of ass around on a public road.

Fuel Injection mapping is done to meet government mandated Rules & Regulations period. The bikes are not allowed to run in a manner that is stoichiometric let alone ideally tuned for performance. They are forced to breathe in a manner that abides by the testing methods placed upon them each government they are tested through. This is where Fi really shines because they can force the bike to do things that would not be possible in normal atmospheric conditions with Constant Velocity carbs. It allows them to richen or lean out the mixture at any rpm, throttle position, engine temp, run time, pressure, vacuum or really any variable defined by any sensor or moving part on the bike.
While it's true the they cut costs where they can, there's two sides to the story.

I'll use a more common example. Ford once used the same engine for boats, trucks and cars. Chevy did the same. They get economies of scale and that's why we have so many features on a modern car that just weren't there before.

Go back to the 50's and 60's and look at how many cars had A/C, power disk brakes, etc...

It's when they produce things in the millions to 10's of millions that you really start seeing the benefit.

I went to a store to buy something, they were out of stock. I went to another store that had a 2nd rate version of the same and I complained that it didn't work. They responded with "we don't have the shelf space for everything"... I left saying it takes just as much shelf space to sell the 2nd rate version as it does the version that actually works.

Just as much as you can spend 2 hours on a math problem and still get it wrong, so to can a company build something that doesn't serve the customer as well.

I was pricing what it would take me to manufacture a product. One of the key issues is adding more stuff into the base design that increases the value. This is a critical part of the design process. Just as Ford used the same starter one a whole bunch of cars and trucks... this increases the value to the consumer.

The amount of time and effort it take Honda to make or Apple to make 10 million electronic boards (for a phone or an EFI) is not going to change much by adding $0.03 worth of connectors for a USB or flash drive.

I can get a whole computer for $9 retail. Your telling me that $9 retail would have cost Honda so many sales that they just couldn't do it? BS. (By the way, the $9 is for a fully functional computer at retail price). Honda or Apple could add in the storage port for maybe $1 in parts.

Suggesting this is all about keeping the price low doesn't fly.

If that theory were true, how does Samsung do it? I have both in front of me right now... Apple's iPhone and Samsung Edge... one has the microSD port and the other doesn't.

Honda could redesign the EFI computer with a simple add on slot and make it so it reads that for it's map.

I've seen people actually do this for Ford's EFI.

I can see the argument holding a bit better for something like a shock, but even then it's doesn't fully hold water. Building crap takes energy, building quality also takes energy.

Quality doesn't alway cost more energy to make.

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post #30 of 35 Old 05-01-2018, 08:21 PM
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You've totally missed the point....

Honda doesn't want you changing their map. 1. It is federally illegal to do and all the careful mapping they did to comply with the EPA rules goes right out the window. 2. Honda damn sure doesn't you tinkering with their mapping that they know is 100% safe for the lifetime operation of the engine.
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post #31 of 35 Old 05-02-2018, 12:40 PM
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LDH, there's something I've always wondered....

When it comes to Dyno tuning a FI motorcycle, once the Tech has learned how to operate the Dyno, and computer, Can one guy tune a bike any better than the next? Is there any human art form that goes into it?

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post #32 of 35 Old 05-02-2018, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post
LDH, there's something I've always wondered....

When it comes to Dyno tuning a FI motorcycle, once the Tech has learned how to operate the Dyno, and computer, Can one guy tune a bike any better than the next? Is there any human art form that goes into it?
Yes. it is not enough to know how to tune a bike on the dyno it's also being willing to take the time and do the work properly and like any other profession there are lazy people everywhere or people that just want to slam-dunk the work and get the customers money without really delivering the best product or service that they can. We all know what taking short cuts gets you...

Additionally there are different states of tune. The maps Dynojet makes for any given bike are in most cases tuned to a different A/F ratio than I tune a bike for because I am looking for performance and or driveability rather than a combination of performance and emphasis on economy as well.


Oh & just because a shop has a certified dyno operator on the payroll that doesn't mean he is the one actually doing the work or taking the time to do it properly for that matter. Jus Sayin'
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post #33 of 35 Old 05-02-2018, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
Yes. it is not enough to know how to tune a bike on the dyno it's also being willing to take the time and do the work properly and like any other profession there are lazy people everywhere or people that just want to slam-dunk the work and get the customers money without really delivering the best product or service that they can. We all know what taking short cuts gets you...

Additionally there are different states of tune. The maps Dynojet makes for any given bike are in most cases tuned to a different A/F ratio than I tune a bike for because I am looking for performance and or driveability rather than a combination of performance and emphasis on economy as well.


Oh & just because a shop has a certified dyno operator on the payroll that doesn't mean he is the one actually doing the work or taking the time to do it properly for that matter. Jus Sayin'
In addition, based on some info I gleaned from 919.org, the Honda ECU has enrichening steps for coolant temps above "Normal".
My guess is that the enrichening is for some quench effect.
My observation of the 919 cooling system is that it is a high coolant volume X low heat exchanger rating combination.
From watching numerous dyno runs on my 919, it wasn't lost on me that the engine mass and cooling system was up to full temperature, power runs easily get the needle rising in short order, and the small rad of the 919 is a big part of that happening.
My theory is that a dyno tuner who is not careful doing a 919, can end up unwittingly mapping while the ECU is in some degree of enrichening mode, meaning the map will not at all be ideal for normal riding and track days.
LDH, please feel free to opine on the above.

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post #34 of 35 Old 05-02-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
In addition, based on some info I gleaned from 919.org, the Honda ECU has enrichening steps for coolant temps above "Normal".
My guess is that the enrichening is for some quench effect.
My observation of the 919 cooling system is that it is a high coolant volume X low heat exchanger rating combination.
From watching numerous dyno runs on my 919, it wasn't lost on me that the engine mass and cooling system was up to full temperature, power runs easily get the needle rising in short order, and the small rad of the 919 is a big part of that happening.
My theory is that a dyno tuner who is not careful doing a 919, can end up unwittingly mapping while the ECU is in some degree of enrichening mode, meaning the map will not at all be ideal for normal riding and track days.
LDH, please feel free to opine on the above.

You are not wrong, but that is all part of a being a properly trained dyno operator

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post #35 of 35 Old 05-02-2018, 03:58 PM
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You are not wrong, but that is all part of a being a properly trained dyno operator
Speaking of training, is it one or two weeks that people go to DynoJet school for?
Regardless, graduating from that training is surely more a case of being able to learn going forward, as compared to being "good to go" beyond a basic level.
Having seen a master at work, I can tell that the ancient term "Tinker Tune" is still valid and is what a dyno whiz does and that simply can't be learned in a week or two at school, nor can it be developed unless one spends lots of time dynoing, has the necessary smarts and related knowledge, and pursues excellence.

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