Switching from Castrol 4T 20w50 with Castrol GTX 20w50 - Wrist Twisters
 3Likes
  • 1 Post By rmb
  • 1 Post By badmoon692008
  • 1 Post By KarlJay
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 28 Old 01-18-2018, 11:37 PM Thread Starter
Princeps Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,994
Rep Power: 1
 
Switching from Castrol 4T 20w50 with Castrol GTX 20w50

I don't think it matters, but I bought a few cases of Castrol 4T 20w50 motorcycle oil years ago. I'm finally down to the last 2 qts.

I don't remember if Castrol GTX 20w50 is fine for a wet clutch motorcycle. I know about syn and 'high mileage' oils but I don't remember if GTX is in class.

KarlJay is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 01-19-2018, 02:03 AM
rmb
Let's go!
 
rmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sussex Couty NJ
Posts: 7,643
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 9

heck the rating on the GTX, I believe it's "energy conserving" meaning it's no good for wet clutches. Look for the API rating on the bottle, must read "JSO MA" i believe..

rmb is offline  
post #3 of 28 Old 01-19-2018, 11:22 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,498
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
I don't think it matters, but I bought a few cases of Castrol 4T 20w50 motorcycle oil years ago. I'm finally down to the last 2 qts.

I don't remember if Castrol GTX 20w50 is fine for a wet clutch motorcycle. I know about syn and 'high mileage' oils but I don't remember if GTX is in class.
20W50 is not any kind of advantageous viscosity for a street ridden 919.
Do yourself a favour, finish it off and get some JAS 10W40 or better yet a 0 or 5 W40.
20W50 is an air cooled rating also reflecting the limitations of oils of decades ago.

mcromo44 is offline  
 
post #4 of 28 Old 01-19-2018, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
Princeps Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,994
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
20W50 is not any kind of advantageous viscosity for a street ridden 919.
Do yourself a favour, finish it off and get some JAS 10W40 or better yet a 0 or 5 W40.
20W50 is an air cooled rating also reflecting the limitations of oils of decades ago.
So I have a few 5 qt jugs of Quaker State 10w40 API SN. I look up in the book and it says "SJ" or higher. This link lists it but doesn't say if it's correct or not.

MotoMojo: Keep Your Motorcycle Runnin??With the Right Oil

So we're supposed to avoid graphite, 'extra milage', and synthetic, etc...

Q. Does "SJ" or higher mean that if you replace the "J" with anything alphabetically higher, it's OK?

So my jug of QS 10w40 "SN" is fine?

KarlJay is offline  
post #5 of 28 Old 01-19-2018, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
Princeps Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,994
Rep Power: 1
 
According to this (post #177):

Oil and Lubrication Thread! - Page 5 - Motorcycle Forum

API "SN" can't be run in a motorcycle.

Calls to the local dealers say the SN is fine for a motorcycle, but they also say it should be "non automotive" because of the chance of additives.

KarlJay is offline  
post #6 of 28 Old 01-19-2018, 04:08 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,498
Rep Power: 1
 
I am pretty sure the SN oils have a depressed antiwear component re catalytic converter contamination concerns.
Considering that our motorcycle cam engines are non roller design, why even contemplate using a SN.
Then there's the issue of 10W40 officially being a non Energy Conserving oil, some makers are still doping their 10W40 with a full friction modifier package.
Oil has become such a circus.
To make life simple, I've been using Rotella T6 5W40, it's a CJ-4/SM that is also an MA, it's for super hot and highly loaded turbo'd diesels, and has a decent extreme temp viscosity rating plus a decent hi shear rating. (the gear mesh in our trannies heavily shears the oil)
Save the jugs for your car is my suggestion.
As for "synthetics", there's a term that has been so mangled over the years it means next to nothing anymore.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #7 of 28 Old 01-19-2018, 04:13 PM
919 Rider
 
Islandboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Flinders island
Posts: 1,993
Rep Power: 1
 
I got to ask. Could bad oil choice be the cause of your clutch problems?
I'm thinking of going switching oils to maybe see an improvement in gear changes. Honda oil to a full synthetic.

Islandboy is offline  
post #8 of 28 Old 01-19-2018, 04:18 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,498
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
According to this (post #177):

Oil and Lubrication Thread! - Page 5 - Motorcycle Forum

API "SN" can't be run in a motorcycle.

Calls to the local dealers say the SN is fine for a motorcycle, but they also say it should be "non automotive" because of the chance of additives.
I just checked the API website.
SN is for gasoline automotive engines.
There is no such thing as an API SN non automotive engine oil per API.
And SN is classified as an Energy Converving AND Resource Conserving, said Resource Conserving including reduced anti wear compound limits.
What a zoo, eh?

mcromo44 is offline  
post #9 of 28 Old 01-19-2018, 04:25 PM
919 Rider
 
Islandboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Flinders island
Posts: 1,993
Rep Power: 1
 
Oils do my head in.
Think I'll just stick to the honda stuff. Boring.

Islandboy is offline  
post #10 of 28 Old 01-19-2018, 05:10 PM Thread Starter
Princeps Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,994
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
I got to ask. Could bad oil choice be the cause of your clutch problems?
I'm thinking of going switching oils to maybe see an improvement in gear changes. Honda oil to a full synthetic.
I don't know if the clutch is original or not, but the bike has some 26K+ miles, so IDK the life of an OEM clutch but if it made it over 25K, I'm happy.

I was running Castro 4T Motorcycle oil and only now have been told it's wrong and only by 1 person. The local deal was worthless for anyone that doesn't want pure Honda oil.

Full or partial synthetic is wrong.

In the end, I don't think the clutch is such a big deal. You have easy access to it, it's a < $100 for all friction plates and if you do both friction and steel, it's still some $160ish. So if I got 25k out of it, that's a bargain.

mcromo44 talks about the gears, I'd be MUCH more concerned about gears than a clutch. You can replace the clutch without pulling an breaking open the engine. Not to mention, finding a new or good used 919 gear set.

I opened the Nighthawk 700S a number of times and it's not exactly a party.

KarlJay is offline  
post #11 of 28 Old 01-19-2018, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
Princeps Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,994
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I just checked the API website.
SN is for gasoline automotive engines.
There is no such thing as an API SN non automotive engine oil per API.
And SN is classified as an Energy Converving AND Resource Conserving, said Resource Conserving including reduced anti wear compound limits.
What a zoo, eh?
It is a zoo. One guy at a great shop told me I'm overthinking this whole thing. He said just stick with conventional oil. I'm going to run the Quaker State 10w40 API SN for now and maybe a 20w50 in the summer time. Everyone seems to say it's mostly the clutch that's the concern, so I can replace it if needed.

KarlJay is offline  
post #12 of 28 Old 01-20-2018, 01:41 PM
Tesserarius
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 622
Rep Power: 1
 
I learned my lesson years ago, by putting the wrong type of oil in my 929. Made the clutch slip. My Hondas get Honda Synthetic, in the red container. The KTMs get Motorex Synthetic. Yeah, it may cost a couple of dollars more, but Cheap is Cheap, only in the long run.

Sniper-x is offline  
post #13 of 28 Old 01-20-2018, 04:44 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,498
Rep Power: 1
 
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
It is a zoo. One guy at a great shop told me I'm overthinking this whole thing. He said just stick with conventional oil. I'm going to run the Quaker State 10w40 API SN for now and maybe a 20w50 in the summer time. Everyone seems to say it's mostly the clutch that's the concern, so I can replace it if needed.
KJ, I suggest you check the particulars of whichever Q S you have.
I did a most cursory search on the Q S site and found their 10W40 SN "Defy", and the tech sheet says the oil has "additional" friction modifiers. Not just some, not just normal, but instead "additional".
Your new clutch plates might thank you for it.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #14 of 28 Old 01-20-2018, 08:29 PM Thread Starter
Princeps Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,994
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post
I learned my lesson years ago, by putting the wrong type of oil in my 929. Made the clutch slip. My Hondas get Honda Synthetic, in the red container. The KTMs get Motorex Synthetic. Yeah, it may cost a couple of dollars more, but Cheap is Cheap, only in the long run.
Interesting and confusing. One thing I've always heard about synthetic is to NOT use it. Everyone always said use conventional oil.

KarlJay is offline  
post #15 of 28 Old 01-20-2018, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
Princeps Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,994
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
KJ, I suggest you check the particulars of whichever Q S you have.
I did a most cursory search on the Q S site and found their 10W40 SN "Defy", and the tech sheet says the oil has "additional" friction modifiers. Not just some, not just normal, but instead "additional".
Your new clutch plates might thank you for it.
I just went to their site and all it said was "SN". I'm being told SN is fine from one dealer.

TBH, this is just unreal. Something as simple as changing the damn oil, and three dealers are giving me different answers. Honda dealer will only sell Honda oil, one had no clue, the other said I was overthinking everything.

This really can't be this hard.

Anyways, I'm going to run the QS10w40 Advanced Durability an if it's wrong, I'll switch it out. How much damage can it do in one round?

There really should be an easier way to do this.

So much useless info out there, it's just unreal. Mostly the Honda dealer, it's bad enough they won't work on a bike over 10 years old, but they won't even tell you if an oil is right or wrong.

KarlJay is offline  
post #16 of 28 Old 01-21-2018, 04:53 AM
rmb
Let's go!
 
rmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sussex Couty NJ
Posts: 7,643
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance Wrist Twisters Event Attendance 
Total Awards: 9

It really isn't that hard, use an oil designed for wet clutches in motorcycles. One round will ruin your new clutch.... I use standard Honda GN4 10w40. Have used it since the bike was new and change it every 2k to 3k miles, I can tell when it's time for a change by how it shifts.
badmoon692008 likes this.

rmb is offline  
post #17 of 28 Old 01-21-2018, 10:36 AM
919 Rider
 
Islandboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Flinders island
Posts: 1,993
Rep Power: 1
 
I use the Honda GN4. Been thinking of going full synthetic. Trying to smooth out the gear changes a little. At times my gearbox is a little clunky, sometimes gears are a little hard to select, sometimes find a false neutral. I'm much better at gear changes than when I got the bike. A few changes to the bike and my technique have made improvements. Now I'd like to try a full synthetic to see if there is a difference. I live in Australia so will use a local made oil. Penrite. Here is an example of what I'm considering.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/282074521821
Full synthetic and suitable for wet clutch.

Islandboy is offline  
post #18 of 28 Old 01-21-2018, 02:05 PM
Tesserarius
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 622
Rep Power: 1
 
HP4S is Honda's full Synthetic, and what I use. Google it.

Sniper-x is offline  
post #19 of 28 Old 01-21-2018, 02:43 PM Thread Starter
Princeps Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,994
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
It really isn't that hard, use an oil designed for wet clutches in motorcycles. One round will ruin your new clutch.... I use standard Honda GN4 10w40. Have used it since the bike was new and change it every 2k to 3k miles, I can tell when it's time for a change by how it shifts.
The hard part isn't in using the correct oil or not, that part is simple. It's that I have a Honda dealer saying yes, a non Honda dealer saying yes, another shop not knowing and a forum saying no.

The hard part is getting humans to agree on WHICH oil is correct. Even the manual isn't clear, it says above J so that means that the wet clutch motor oil from Castrol is wrong, yet it is made for a wet clutch.

Even what you say "use an oil designed for wet clutches in motorcycles" contradicts the Honda manual that says "above J"

SN is clearly above J, yet some are saying no.

KarlJay is offline  
post #20 of 28 Old 01-21-2018, 02:58 PM
919 Rider
 
Islandboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Flinders island
Posts: 1,993
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post
HP4S is Honda's full Synthetic, and what I use. Google it.
I didn't know Honda had a full synthetic. I will try to get some.

Islandboy is offline  
post #21 of 28 Old 01-21-2018, 03:59 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,498
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post

The hard part is getting humans to agree on WHICH oil is correct. Even the manual isn't clear, it says above J so that means that the wet clutch motor oil from Castrol is wrong, yet it is made for a wet clutch.

Even what you say "use an oil designed for wet clutches in motorcycles" contradicts the Honda manual that says "above J"

SN is clearly above J, yet some are saying no.
My 2002 Factory Manual says SG or higher, EXCEPT oils labelled as energy conserving.
My 2005 Owners Manual says the same thing.
The manuals are very clear and contain no contradiction, as NO ENERGY CONSERVING OILS ARE TO BE USED.
While more recent specs can be used, what does not change is the exclusion of the use of energy conserving oils.
Keep in mind that for Mr. Honda, the dominant oil spec they invoke is JASO T 903 - MA.
API is secondary, and has to be, seeing as the API oil specs are for gasoline engines, not engines with bathed clutches and/or integral gearboxes.
What Honda is saying, to their credit, is select on the basis of a relevant spec that conforms to their requirements, and to help keep us out of trouble, run and hide from anything labelled as Energy Conserving, and if you want to make your life simple, buy a 'MA labelled oil in the correct viscosity grade.

A higher letter does not mean a better oil.
It just means a new spec has come along for a very specific set of reasons.
SN came out in October of 2010, is intended for gasoline burning engines of 2010 or more recent, that may be turbocharged, likely have rollerized valve trains, require less antiwear additive carryover into the exhaust re Cat' Con' contamination, and may see service on E85 fuel.
SNs are doped with energy conserving additives.
They have reduced antiwear additives.

In very general terms, mass market modern API automotive engine oils have gone in a negative direction in terms of use in flat tappet motorcycle engines with bathed clutches.

Short story, outside of dedicated motorcycle oils, one is best left to buy a suitable API designated diesel oil also with JASO MA markings, such as Shell Rotella T6 5W40 . (So far, I have not seen any JASO MA 0W40 T6, but if I do, I'll switch to that.)

mcromo44 is offline  
post #22 of 28 Old 01-21-2018, 04:28 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,498
Rep Power: 1
 
A wee bit more...............just to make sure we all get suitably glassy eyed.
In terms of our precious automotive oils, API has 5 classes of base stocks that pertain to them.
I, II & III are all from crude oil.
But some marketers intimate 3s are Synthetics, when if fact they are not, as they all stem from crude oil.
IV is a pure POA "oil", in other words a totally manufactured fluid, and therefore a "synthetic".
V is anything that's not crude oil base, nor a straight POA, sort of a catchall for synthetics that are not POA.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #23 of 28 Old 01-21-2018, 04:42 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,498
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post
HP4S is Honda's full Synthetic, and what I use. Google it.
It looks as though the oil was conceived and concocted under the governance of JASO, not that there's any problem at all with that.
Have you been able to find out what the API equivalent Base Stock is it made from?
So far, I have not been able to.
IF by chance it's Class III, then technically it would not be a true synthetic.
BUT the price is suggestive of it being a true synthetic.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #24 of 28 Old 01-22-2018, 07:16 AM
(Quintus) Pilus Prior
 
badmoon692008's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Neenah, WI
Posts: 2,213
Rep Power: 1
 

Awards Showcase
Extraordinary Ride 
Total Awards: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
I don't know if the clutch is original or not, but the bike has some 26K+ miles, so IDK the life of an OEM clutch but if it made it over 25K, I'm happy.
I have 45,000+ miles on my OEM clutch and it's still going strong, and that includes track days and multiple trips to the drag strip (and a good helping of burnouts) I know there are members here with many more miles than that on OEM clutches, and I'm pretty sure the guy with 300,000 miles on his CBR is still on the OEM clutch.
mcromo44 likes this.

Love is the feeling you get when you like something as much as your motorcycle - Hunter S. Thompson
I just mı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨ade you wipe your screen.
-2009 Suzuki GSX-R 750 Race Bike
-2007 Honda 919
-1995 Nighthawk 750 (Tboned)
-1983 KZ 440 (Sold)
badmoon692008 is online now  
post #25 of 28 Old 01-24-2018, 11:40 AM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,498
Rep Power: 1
 
KarlJay has gone silent for some days now.
I hope he hasn't been driven around the bend from all the conflicting info.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #26 of 28 Old 01-24-2018, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
Princeps Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,994
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
KarlJay has gone silent for some days now.
I hope he hasn't been driven around the bend from all the conflicting info.
Still here, I got the cable installed and the disks soaking. I didn't install the clutch yet, it's actually doesn't seem to be slipping that much.

One of the reasons for wanting to address the slipping as soon as it starts is that the steels are usually good and you can get replace the friction disks. However, if you push it too far, you might end up having to replace both steel and friction, I had that happen on the Nighthawk 700S.

KarlJay is offline  
post #27 of 28 Old 01-24-2018, 04:46 PM
McTavish
 
mcromo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,498
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Still here, I got the cable installed and the disks soaking. I didn't install the clutch yet, it's actually doesn't seem to be slipping that much.

One of the reasons for wanting to address the slipping as soon as it starts is that the steels are usually good and you can get replace the friction disks. However, if you push it too far, you might end up having to replace both steel and friction, I had that happen on the Nighthawk 700S.
I can't remember if cable routing has come up yet re all this.
If you're following the same routing, maybe someone else was there before you got the bike and changed things.
Regardless, seeing as you have the cable fitted and the clutch is not yet assembled, a really good check on the routing is to take the clutch end in your hand and push it back and forth. It should easily be able to "flap" the clutch lever. If it doesn't, seeing as it's a new cable and for sure the correct one, then it's indicative of a cable routing problem and/or excessive friction point(s) at the lever.

mcromo44 is offline  
post #28 of 28 Old 01-25-2018, 04:18 AM Thread Starter
Princeps Prior
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 1,994
Rep Power: 1
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I can't remember if cable routing has come up yet re all this.
If you're following the same routing, maybe someone else was there before you got the bike and changed things.
Regardless, seeing as you have the cable fitted and the clutch is not yet assembled, a really good check on the routing is to take the clutch end in your hand and push it back and forth. It should easily be able to "flap" the clutch lever. If it doesn't, seeing as it's a new cable and for sure the correct one, then it's indicative of a cable routing problem and/or excessive friction point(s) at the lever.
One of the things I checked first was the pull on the new cable vs the old one, very different. However, it was barely enough to keep the bearing off the clutch. It's like that little spring on the lever needs a bit more. I know that springs wear over time. I think as long as it doesn't let the bearing ride, I'll be ok.

I plan on doing a write up because there's a way to do this that make it pretty simple and these bikes are getting to the age where things like this are going to be an issue.

We have to remember that the NEWEST 919 is now > 10 years old. It would be in our best interest to have a list of things that go bad so that we can keep the ball rolling as long as we can. Cables are pretty much a no brainer, wear item.
Islandboy likes this.

KarlJay is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wrist Twisters forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome