Rear shock spring rate? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 68 Old 06-03-2013, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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Rear shock spring rate?

Has anyone measured the rear shock spring rate on a late model 919? I know that they are progressive. I was wondering what the rate was for the first inch or so. I am in the process of building another aftermarket shock for the 919 and was just curious. I did a search and did not find what I was looking for.

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post #2 of 68 Old 06-03-2013, 02:50 PM
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Only some progression in the wind, nothing like the fork springs.
Nominal 465-485 #/inch or so - woefully inadequate that's for sure.

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post #3 of 68 Old 06-03-2013, 06:21 PM Thread Starter
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it is hard to believe that the rear spring is 485 inch pounds.
I thought that it was closer to 1000 inch pounds.
I am considering using either a -74 which is 1028 inch pounds or a -79 which is 1086 inch pounds.

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post #4 of 68 Old 06-03-2013, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondad View Post
it is hard to believe that the rear spring is 485 inch pounds.
I thought that it was closer to 1000 inch pounds.
I am considering using either a -74 which is 1028 inch pounds or a -79 which is 1086 inch pounds.
ERROR !!!
Cross eyed from too much work.
865 to 885

For either of the rear springs you are eyeing, 0.90s up front are what I suggest, max 15 mm of installed preload.

I've run 1000, 1100, and 1200 out back.
Going to try a 1300 as an experiment.

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post #5 of 68 Old 06-03-2013, 07:49 PM
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where do you guys get the spring and service done at? mc you do it yourself?

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post #6 of 68 Old 06-03-2013, 11:01 PM
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Isnt the earlier model bike have a higher rate? Just looked at my rear shock. Looks like the rear spring cant be changed?

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post #7 of 68 Old 06-04-2013, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
Isnt the earlier model bike have a higher rate? Just looked at my rear shock. Looks like the rear spring cant be changed?
No sure where everyone is getting rear spring rates, I have yet to see someone measuring it unless i missed it ( which is very possible). I did have my local Ohlins dealer put on on the stand a few year ago, it was 07 spring and I think it checked out around 1020. Spring isn't the best quality too.

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post #8 of 68 Old 06-04-2013, 05:43 PM Thread Starter
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That rate sounds about right.

Ohlins recommends a -74. I think I am going to go with the -79.
I am doing another F3 shock this time it is a Ohlins HO702-3. I was hoping for HO451 but I have not been able to find one.
I hope the shock will fit since it is not clocked the same as a 919 shock or the HO451. There should be room, hopefully.

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post #9 of 68 Old 06-04-2013, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
No sure where everyone is getting rear spring rates, I have yet to see someone measuring it unless i missed it ( which is very possible). I did have my local Ohlins dealer put on on the stand a few year ago, it was 07 spring and I think it checked out around 1020. Spring isn't the best quality too.
Hi zaq123,
You raise a good point, as usual.
My recollection is that someone did a test and reported 865 or 885.
When I got my Penske in 06, Jim Lindemann told me the 2004 onward 919s came with 900s.
Whatever it is, is mush soft.
I'd have to fish about.
Also.
I have an early shock that Rickard loaned me for another experiment to be done.
So it has the so called 1200 on it.
There is a slight difference in the coil gaps, looks like a slight dual rate wind with major section very dominant.

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post #10 of 68 Old 06-04-2013, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by velodesign View Post
where do you guys get the spring and service done at? mc you do it yourself?
I do the spring and spacer work.
All the ride height stuff as well.
Pure hydraulics, as in cartridge valves and shims, and shock internals, I go to Willie Vass exclusively.

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post #11 of 68 Old 06-05-2013, 12:53 PM
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I do wonder what the stock shock would be like with the correct spring rate on it. i will have a look to see if I could make a removable lower spring seat for it.

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post #12 of 68 Old 06-05-2013, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
I do wonder what the stock shock would be like with the correct spring rate on it. i will have a look to see if I could make a removable lower spring seat for it.
it would be just that: stock shock. The only way to get anything out of it is a complete rebuild. Basically to keep its body and use new valving and new remote reservoir. Stock shock is a budget unit and by its design, one can tell that the budget was very limited. That remote reservoir is doing nothing, it's there just to tell a consumer "look, there is something from 21st century on this bike".

There is a reason why 9er is a budget affordable bike: steel frame, steel lower triple clamp, old tech forks, crappy shock, cheap paint quality, old motor design (not like there anything wrong with it), basic headlight design. "Do it all" kind of bike. Smart market strategy that was a success in those parts of the world where riding a bike isn't just about "cool" status.

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post #13 of 68 Old 06-05-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
There is a reason why 9er is a budget affordable bike: steel frame, steel lower triple clamp, old tech forks, crappy shock, cheap paint quality, old motor design (not like there anything wrong with it), basic headlight design. "Do it all" kind of bike. Smart market strategy that was a success in those parts of the world where riding a bike isn't just about "cool" status.

And that right there has gotten me out of a lot of trouble... One night they pulled about 20 of us over on the side of the road as they had reports of a hooligan gang of riders doing wheelies and racing around downtown Memphis. My very subdued matte black 919 with saddle bags on it and such was very out of place amongst the high end Busa's and GSXR1000's etc and I told the cop "I was just riding along and these guys came up on me". They told me to go on my way All the guys starting screaming that I was the #1 trouble maker in the group doing wheelies down Union Ave etc and the cops didn't believe a word of it as I was pulling away

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post #14 of 68 Old 06-05-2013, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by LDH View Post
And that right there has gotten me out of a lot of trouble... One night they pulled about 20 of us over on the side of the road as they had reports of a hooligan gang of riders doing wheelies and racing around downtown Memphis. My very subdued matte black 919 with saddle bags on it and such was very out of place amongst the high end Busa's and GSXR1000's etc and I told the cop "I was just riding along and these guys came up on me". They told me to go on my way All the guys starting screaming that I was the #1 trouble maker in the group doing wheelies down Union Ave etc and the cops didn't believe a word of it as I was pulling away
Hilarious !

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post #15 of 68 Old 06-05-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
I do wonder what the stock shock would be like with the correct spring rate on it. i will have a look to see if I could make a removable lower spring seat for it.

The stock shock is not a shock.
Instead, it's a superlative friction stick.
How else to explain my 05 riding like a truck at the back as compared to the Penske with way more spring rate on it ?

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post #16 of 68 Old 06-05-2013, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
The stock shock is not a shock.
Instead, it's a superlative friction stick.
How else to explain my 05 riding like a truck at the back as compared to the Penske with way more spring rate on it ?
LOL that's an apt description.

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post #17 of 68 Old 06-05-2013, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
LOL that's an apt description.
I gotta say more on this.
My dear sweet wife, who seems to understand me so puts up with a fair bit (more so in the past), is not at all a Gearhead type, I mean not at all. Despite that though :

1
Put on the Penske with a bunch more spring, and even after firmed up damping settings after a fair bit of experimenting, going for a ride with some whoop dee doos and bumps
"It rides nicer, feels more stable".

2
Put in the MoriV4 map into the PC3 and synch the PC3 to the TP
"It sounds different" (the exhaust note out of the TRSs at idle as she got ready to hop on the back of the bike)

So as you can see, I have the highest level of evidence as to the transformational qualities of at least two things that adorn my bike !

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post #18 of 68 Old 06-05-2013, 04:29 PM
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Hang on a second! Are you trying to tell us that you rode your bike this year? :P

Spoiler:

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post #19 of 68 Old 06-05-2013, 05:05 PM
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Hang on a second! Are you trying to tell us that you rode your bike this year? :P
I wish.
I have put battery back in and fired it up once to proof it and a second time just to listen to some soft music.
Heavy heavy work load at present, another weekend of it coming up.
Travel as well.
It rather SUX

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post #20 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 02:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
The stock shock is not a shock.
Instead, it's a superlative friction stick.
How else to explain my 05 riding like a truck at the back as compared to the Penske with way more spring rate on it ?
So you tried the stock shock with a higher rate spring then or tested the stock shock? To me it feel horribly undersprung.

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post #21 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
So you tried the stock shock with a higher rate spring then or tested the stock shock? To me it feel horribly undersprung.
I started with stock 05 shock and played with it a bit.
Then I put on a Penske that came with a 1000.
Then went to 1100
Then went to 1200 which remains on the bike but I will be trying out a 1300, to what it's like including when my wife is on the back.
The Penske internals also evolved, it ended up with a digressive compression piston being put in, that being the second iteration tried beyond the piston that came in the shock.
A fair bit of development.

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post #22 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I started with stock 05 shock and played with it a bit.
Then I put on a Penske that came with a 1000.
Then went to 1100
Then went to 1200 which remains on the bike but I will be trying out a 1300, to what it's like including when my wife is on the back.
The Penske internals also evolved, it ended up with a digressive compression piston being put in, that being the second iteration tried beyond the piston that came in the shock.
A fair bit of development.
But you havent tried a 1200 spring on a stock shock?

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post #23 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
But you havent tried a 1200 spring on a stock shock?
Sure, the spring would be fine, but you still have crappy to no rebound compression. Shoot the seat right through your hind quarters on hitting a pothole

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post #24 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 01:02 PM
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Sure, the spring would be fine, but you still have crappy to no rebound compression. Shoot the seat right through your hind quarters on hitting a pothole
To me the shock feels a little over dampened. Set the rebound to full and the bike takes half an hour to come back up. When I get some time I may chuck one on a shock dyno to see whats going on.

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post #25 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 01:42 PM
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Well, if the rebound is too much, back it off a bit. But what I'm getting at, is you're only upgrading one component of an already sub,sub par system. Kinda like putting a supercharger on a Ford Pinto - not much purpose and a waste of money.

Just save your and get what's already out there that's been touted as the best suspension upgrade for your money, is my take on the subject.

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post #26 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Well, if the rebound is too much, back it off a bit. But what I'm getting at, is you're only upgrading one component of an already sub,sub par system. Kinda like putting a supercharger on a Ford Pinto - not much purpose and a waste of money.

Just save your and get what's already out there that's been touted as the best suspension upgrade for your money, is my take on the subject.
But then wouldn't you be upgrading one system of a sub-par bike?

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post #27 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 04:11 PM
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But then wouldn't you be upgrading one system of a sub-par bike?
Paging LDH, we need input on this, as it's never been discussed before!

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post #28 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
But you havent tried a 1200 spring on a stock shock?
Which would be like an 02/03 rear shock, although the damping force curves were probably different to some degree. Crap is crap and the stock damper is crap, so springs won't solve that problem.

I also think that zaq123's rework of a stock rear a few years ago was of insight.
The hydraulics needed redoing internally, an adjustable reservoir was added, a suitable spring rate was fitted, and for not too much money he got himself a big improvement over the OEM unit. As good as an Ohlins or Penske, no, but way better than stock yes, but more to the point, look what had to be done to turn an absolute turd into something decent.

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post #29 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 05:03 PM
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OEM shocks are shit. They are built to the cheapest price point possible in an effort to be able to safely roll the bike around in a capacity that will accept the full weight of a rider and passenger.


As an elitist in this sport it is my desire to help other riders get the most out of their sportbike experience by providing solid, prudent advice based on decades of experience on and off the track. If you want to make your stock shock better then I really cannot help you. It's not worth my time or effort to explain to you the point of diminishing returns on this venture.

As a professional in the suspension industry I will not even touch an OEM shock period for basically the same reasons listed above.

If you're excuse for only wanting to improve the bike a little bit over a lot is simply a financial choice as in you do not have enough money to afford a quality aftermarket shock then my answer is either make due until you can save up enough money or don't ride. Nobody ever said owning a sportbike was cheap.

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post #30 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 06:10 PM
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As an elitist in this sport it is my desire to help other riders get the most out of their sportbike experience by providing solid, prudent advice based on decades of experience on and off the track.
I see you as being an aficionado, not an elitist.
Compliment intended.

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post #31 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
I see you as being an aficionado, not an elitist.
Compliment intended.
Well I appreciate that I really do, but who ever heard of an "Aficionado Prick"

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post #32 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 06:42 PM
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My rear shock rebuilt was basically an experiment done by my local Ohlins suspension shop. I got a huge discount on the rebuild. Like I said before, the only thing that remained stock on this shock was its body. When shop was done, it was estimated at around $500-$600 +shock to actually make it worth for the builder. I paid nowhere near that price. Not sure if LDH ever took stock shock apart but I can see how it would not make any sense to do it. A few more $ and you can get ohlins with all those fancy options. Do you guys know that just a remote preload adjuster in Ohlins add $300 to the shock price? Don't understand why Ohlins went all out on 919 shock. It would sell so much better for $600 without all those addons.

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post #33 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaq123 View Post
Don't understand why Ohlins went all out on 919 shock. It would sell so much better for $600 without all those addons.
Believe it or not most people don't mind paying extra for those add-ons and having a hydraulic preload adjuster is worth every penny of $300 if you routinely add luggage or a passenger to your bike. Granted not everyone does that, but those that do understand how valuable that hydraulic preload adjuster is.

Even on pure sportbikes I basically never touch my preload adjuster once I have set the sag properly, but on those rare occasions where I have to go instruct in the rain it is awesome to be able to just reach down and spin that adjuster to soften up the road for the wet conditions instead of having to get out spanner wrenches etc and bust my knuckles for 10 minutes only to have to do it all over again when the track dries up. Some bikes there is physically not even enough room to change the preload with the shock installed on the bike which again is a fantastic reason to have a hydraulic adjuster.

Separate reservoirs for additional oil capacity etc are also a nicety that most experienced riders want in an aftermarket shock.

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post #34 of 68 Old 06-06-2013, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post

Believe it or not most people don't mind paying extra for those add-ons and having a hydraulic preload adjuster is worth every penny of $300 if you routinely add luggage or a passenger to your bike. Granted not everyone does that, but those that do understand how valuable that hydraulic preload adjuster is.

Even on pure sportbikes I basically never touch my preload adjuster once I have set the sag properly, but on those rare occasions where I have to go instruct in the rain it is awesome to be able to just reach down and spin that adjuster to soften up the road for the wet conditions instead of having to get out spanner wrenches etc and bust my knuckles for 10 minutes only to have to do it all over again when the track dries up. Some bikes there is physically not even enough room to change the preload with the shock installed on the bike which again is a fantastic reason to have a hydraulic adjuster.

Separate reservoirs for additional oil capacity etc are also a nicety that most experienced riders want in an aftermarket shock.
Remote reservoir is the first thing that was deemed as a pos on stock shock so it was replaced on mine. I hear some folks (rmb) are happy with remote adjuster too for the same reasons you said.

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post #35 of 68 Old 06-07-2013, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
If you're excuse for only wanting to improve the bike a little bit over a lot is simply a financial choice as in you do not have enough money to afford a quality aftermarket shock then my answer is either make due until you can save up enough money or don't ride. Nobody ever said owning a sportbike was cheap.
Interesting. So its Ohlins or nothing then.

Ok I get that the stocker is no good. But as a newcomer to this site, that had not been said recently that somebody had in fact gutted one.

One would ask how good the Hagon and Progressive shocks are? Yes I may do a track day but this bike is a commuter and a sometimes weekend rider. So is a rear shock that is half the value of the bike really needed?

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post #36 of 68 Old 06-07-2013, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
Yes I may do a track day but this bike is a commuter and a sometimes weekend rider. So is a rear shock that is half the value of the bike really needed?
Is it needed? No. Will it transform your riding experience on the 919? Yes.

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post #37 of 68 Old 06-07-2013, 02:25 AM
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This threads an interesting read, https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...est-23605.html

Random question, has anybody ever tried fitting a linkage swingarm etc to a 919?

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post #38 of 68 Old 06-07-2013, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post

Interesting. So its Ohlins or nothing then.

Ok I get that the stocker is no good. But as a newcomer to this site, that had not been said recently that somebody had in fact gutted one.?
I took one apart and yes, it's a junk. Penske, ohlins are you only choices that worth investing into.

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post #39 of 68 Old 06-07-2013, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
Interesting. So its Ohlins or nothing then.

Ok I get that the stocker is no good. But as a newcomer to this site, that had not been said recently that somebody had in fact gutted one.

One would ask how good the Hagon and Progressive shocks are? Yes I may do a track day but this bike is a commuter and a sometimes weekend rider. So is a rear shock that is half the value of the bike really needed?

I never said that Ohlins was the only choice, but I cannot deny how good their products are. Every MotoGP team uses Ohlins except one and that one is the Gresini Honda team with Bautista using SHOWA. SHOWA is owned by Honda. That means the rest of the Honda teams are using a brand of suspension other than their own. Look at World Superbike or Supersport and the only teams in the points standings are on Ohlins. There are other brands out there, but they don't get the job done at that level.

Pretty much anything is better than stock, but what you are really purchasing when you buy an aftermarket shock is a greater margin of safety and a larger margin of error with some extra comfort thrown in. As important as the mental confidence of this sport is most people want the absolute best products they can obtain under them to give them that confidence even if they don't actually require it. Many races have been won or lost before the green flag ever dropped due to riders feeling they are on the better machinery or inferior machinery respectively.

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post #40 of 68 Old 06-07-2013, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NZspokes View Post
Interesting. So its Ohlins or nothing then.
Locally, you could also investigate YSS, who have a bit of a presence in Australasia.

The local Ohlins guy [Robt Taylor at Crown Kiwi, who is about as fierce about his product as LDH - maybe they do courses at the factory?] built up a shock for AllanB, a Chch guy who used to post on here - IIRC, it was a bit below the full-on spec of the top of the range O shock, but one of those 2 might be able to tell you more about it.

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