Over heating, what steps should I take? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 35 Old 08-13-2019, 05:34 PM Thread Starter
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Over heating, what steps should I take?

I'm losing coolant somewhere. I don't think it's dripping out, but I have found two small leaks and fixed one already.

I topped everything off with tap water and ran some tests. It's 100F and she's in the shade and I have a high speed fan blowing on the rad, yet she still moves up to the red zone.

I'm looking at a head gasket and figure hoses might be a good idea too.

What I'm concerned about is between now and then. I'm wondering if Water Wetter or Honda coolant or anything else might help me buy some time.

Given that the 919 has always been cold blooded, there's clearly a problem and I'm just looking for something to get me by for a few weeks so I can gather all the stuff and get other transportation.

I've filled up maybe 1 liter of water, so the ratio of coolant to water is now off, but IDK how much of a difference that makes.

Because I can't see anything but a tiny leak, I have to assume it's going out the exhaust and replacing a head gasket is a major job I don't want to do right now.

I'm going for a test ride tonight and see if she can maintain a good temp on the freeway once it cools down.

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post #2 of 35 Old 08-13-2019, 07:18 PM
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If it was me I just wouldn't ride my bike if it was overheating.
Might be worthwhile checking if your thermostat is good.
Is your heat sensor good?
Be sure where your coolant is being lost. So places it can go. Coolant overflow, oil sump, cylinder and out exhaust.
Try and single one of those out.
As far as into a cylinder and out exhaust. Check your headers for even temp. Pull your sparkplugs and read. Any sign of hydrolock when starting?
I'd try and rule everything out before looking at the head gasket.

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post #3 of 35 Old 08-13-2019, 07:34 PM
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Usually if it is going out of the exhaust, you will get a sweet smell. You didn't ever put Dexcool (Orange) coolant in did you? That can really screw things up if it mixes with the green coolant.

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post #4 of 35 Old 08-13-2019, 08:04 PM
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A new fan/thermos Switch cured my 990 Super Duke from overheating. The switch cost aprox $40 US.

I can't help with losing coolant unless it's boiling over, in which case the thermos Switch may help.

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post #5 of 35 Old 08-13-2019, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE: Just went for a test ride, 4 miles @ 77F and she got to the bottom of the red.

She's done.

I'm going to have to order the gasket kit and replace the exhaust gasket. Probably do hoses and maybe water pump too.

If she can't hold temp @ 77F then there's no way I'll be able to do anything with her.

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post #6 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
UPDATE: Just went for a test ride, 4 miles @ 77F and she got to the bottom of the red.



She's done.



I'm going to have to order the gasket kit and replace the exhaust gasket. Probably do hoses and maybe water pump too.



If she can't hold temp @ 77F then there's no way I'll be able to do anything with her.


Did you even try checking the thermostat to see if it was stuck closed?
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post #7 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 09:04 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CB700S View Post
Did you even try checking the thermostat to see if it was stuck closed?
That would explain why with full coolant it can't even make a 4 mile trip. I'm going to remove it and see if that makes a difference.

It seems strange that it couldn't even cool the engine even if it's leaking somewhere.

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post #8 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 09:07 AM
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I'd be looking more into this before I assumed a head gasket...
You said your coolant isn't dripping out but you've found two small leaks... I'd make sure both those were fixed first.

How low was the coolant when you filled it up? This may help narrow down if it's from a small leak or from burning

Considering you lost coolant, possibly through a leak, there could be an air bubble trapped in your system causing the lack of cooling, I've had some weird ones that seem impossible to burp without just patience.

Have you looked at the radiator to make sure it isn't plugged with shit either internally or externally?

I'd also consider looking at your water pump and making sure it's working before I assumed head gasket.

Water is the best coolant, so you're not going to hurt anything other than your freeze protection by adding more water.

While there's always a first time, unless there was other abuse/neglect in the past of this bike I doubt you have the first case of a blown headgasket ever seen on this forum, but I guess you never know.

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post #9 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
That would explain why with full coolant it can't even make a 4 mile trip. I'm going to remove it and see if that makes a difference.

It seems strange that it couldn't even cool the engine even if it's leaking somewhere.

If the thermostat is stuck closed or partially closed, the engine cannot relieve pressure or flow enough hot coolant through the radiator to cool down. A stuck closed thermostat can *cause* leaks.


Don't forget to burp the system after to get out any air locks.


Coolant leaks can reduce the cooling capacity of a system.

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post #10 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 01:21 PM
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When the radiator is full and you rev the bike up with the cap off does it shoot coolant out forcefully?

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post #11 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmoon692008 View Post
I'd be looking more into this before I assumed a head gasket...
You said your coolant isn't dripping out but you've found two small leaks... I'd make sure both those were fixed first.

How low was the coolant when you filled it up? This may help narrow down if it's from a small leak or from burning

Considering you lost coolant, possibly through a leak, there could be an air bubble trapped in your system causing the lack of cooling, I've had some weird ones that seem impossible to burp without just patience.

Have you looked at the radiator to make sure it isn't plugged with shit either internally or externally?

I'd also consider looking at your water pump and making sure it's working before I assumed head gasket.

Water is the best coolant, so you're not going to hurt anything other than your freeze protection by adding more water.

While there's always a first time, unless there was other abuse/neglect in the past of this bike I doubt you have the first case of a blown headgasket ever seen on this forum, but I guess you never know.
One of the two leaks was fixed a few weeks ago and the other is VERY small. It's more like a seep just above the oil filter. It doesn't puddle on the ground, but I can see some liquid as seeped out.

>How low was the coolant when you filled it up? This may help narrow down if it's from a small leak or from burning

I put in about 1L between the main fill and the reservoir, I'd guess the reservoir was 2/3 of that, so the engine would have been about .25~.3 Liter.

>Have you looked at the radiator to make sure it isn't plugged with shit either internally or externally?

Not exactly sure how I'd do that. Maybe have a bucket and hose and have it draw from the bucket thru a hose and then check the flow?

>Considering you lost coolant, possibly through a leak, there could be an air bubble trapped in your system causing the lack of cooling, I've had some weird ones that seem impossible to burp without just patience.

Now that you mention that, I didn't see the coolant moving when I added the water yesterday. I'm really thinking the tstat is stuck closed or maybe the water pump is broken. There's just no way an engine would overheat in 4 miles if the coolant was flowing at all. Even with an air pocket.

>While there's always a first time, unless there was other abuse/neglect in the past of this bike I doubt you have the first case of a blown headgasket ever seen on this forum, but I guess you never know.

The main reason for the blown head gasket is that I still have the oil drip at the connection point of the head/block. The oil leak hasn't changed much, it's still a small circle so not a lot and I just did an oil change, the last one didn't lose that much oil.

I'm wondering if the tstat was giving fits before and maybe was the start of the whole problem, but there's still the issue of where is the water going?

I'm going to remove the tstat and see what that does.

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post #12 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
When the radiator is full and you rev the bike up with the cap off does it shoot coolant out forcefully?
It did not, that's what was strange, it did that before. I'm going to double check today.

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post #13 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
It did not, that's what was strange, it did that before. I'm going to double check today.

If the bike just reaches normal operating temp to where the thermostat opens and it blows coolant when you rev the bike that is a pretty sure sign a blown headgasket is allowing exhaust gas into the cooling jacket. Even if it wasn't a blown headgasket causing the problem initially it very well could be the issue now. Anything above about 245 and you are looking a head warpage on aluminum like that. If you went to the top of the temp gauge you likely surpassed that.

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post #14 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 02:11 PM
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When you're doing the thermstat... Remove the radiator and throw it in the kitchen sink with hot water and some good degreaser (Simple Green or similar). Let it soak, lightly brush (don't damage the fins!), rinse, repeat. You'll be amazed how much crap can bury itself among the cooling fins.

My bike was running hotter than normal after 40k+ miles. Replaced the thermostat with new coolant. No change. Did the radiator clean and we're back to normal.
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post #15 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 03:13 PM Thread Starter
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[UPDATE] Removed the tstat and put it in boiling water, it didn't open. Temp gun says 229~232 F, water was boiling and it didn't open a bit.

I guess it's a 190~200 F tstat, so it's bad, unless it's supposed to be that high, but I doubt it.

The water level was down about 3 oz and the reservoir was empty, HOWEVER, I wasn't able to burp the system, in part because the tstat seems to be stuck.

So, I'm going to put it back together without a tstat and see if she'll stay cool.

One other note: I fully removed the tank and when I put it back on the low pressure fuel line leaked. It's on the left near the pump. It looked like it was well connected and had the clamp. I guess I should replace the hose, is this a simple low pressure return line and I can get it at any parts store or is OEM the only way to go?

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post #16 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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[UPDATE] Put it back together without a tstat and she never got past the 1/2 way point. I'm going to put the rest together and do a test run, but if she doesn't overheat after a few on/off cycles of the fan, then the cooling system is at least cooling it down.

Still have to chase down the leak, but it might be a small leak because the tstat would have made it so that the coolant wouldn't burp properly.

I wonder why a tstat would just stop working all the sudden like that, never had that happen before. I know they make a safety version that if it gets stuck, it gets stuck in the open position.

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post #17 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 04:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
If the bike just reaches normal operating temp to where the thermostat opens and it blows coolant when you rev the bike that is a pretty sure sign a blown headgasket is allowing exhaust gas into the cooling jacket. Even if it wasn't a blown headgasket causing the problem initially it very well could be the issue now. Anything above about 245 and you are looking a head warpage on aluminum like that. If you went to the top of the temp gauge you likely surpassed that.
Did a quick test, the coolant did NOT blow out, I could see it moving this time, so clearly that was the problem before. Still have the oil leak and small coolant leak, but looks like she's going to run again.

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post #18 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 04:16 PM
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post #19 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 04:46 PM
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Over heating, what steps should I take?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
I wonder why a tstat would just stop working all the sudden like that, never had that happen before. I know they make a safety version that if it gets stuck, it gets stuck in the open position.

Thermostats are wear items. They do eventually wear out and require replacing. Consider that your bike is at absolute best a minimum of 12 years old.

One of the things I did to my early 2002 was when time came to change the coolant, I also changed the thermostat and temp sensor.

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post #20 of 35 Old 08-14-2019, 11:38 PM
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Good idea. I might pick up a new thermostat sometime. Just in case.

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post #21 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 03:24 AM Thread Starter
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Good idea. I might pick up a new thermostat sometime. Just in case.
Here's the problem, as best I can tell, the tstat was working a week ago. It might have got stuck once before and caused overheating that ended up with the water and oil leaks that I have now, or it might have gotten stuck just a few days ago for the first time.

The thing is, she got into the red zone in about 4 miles @ 77 deg F. Unless you watch your gauges like a hawk, you can destroy your engine in a few miles without any other warning.

There was no flashing light or anything else to indicate a problem and I don't watch the gauges like a hawk every 3 miles. I do notice the fuel light, but not a gauge.

It's not the kind of thing that gives a warning, it just failed.

I'd like to have a flashing light on the dash when the temp gets past a certain point. Shouldn't be too hard to setup.

BTW, they make a fail safe tstat, but I'm not sure they make it in the size needed for your bikes. A fail safe tstat is supposed to fail in the open position not the closed position.


I don't know if this would have helped, because mine was in the closed position and wouldn't open in boiling water. For some reason, it worked for 12 years, then it didn't. Would it have failed in the open position if it were a fail safe, IDK.

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post #22 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 03:53 AM
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Yeah I don't look at my temp gauge all that often. The thermostat in my bike is 15+yrs old. Reckon I'll pop in a new one fairly soon.
I priced one from Partzilla.

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post #23 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 06:39 AM
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The general rule of thumb in the vintage vehicle worlds is thermostats and thermal sensors should be replaced every 10 years even if they still seem to be working - if you are attempting to use it as a daily or semi-daily driver. Magnetic sensors like cam or crank position sensors, or the 919's speed sensor are every 10-15.


That said, part of the SIPDE technique taught at MSF courses and mandatory training at professional driver courses is to check your instruments regularly as part of scanning for threats in your environment.


Regarding the failsafe thermostats, the reason those aren't standard issue is that they actually have a higher than average failure rate and in some vehicles (not the 919, with its open loop all the time EFI) failing open can end up causing damage. Also, they don't always open when they fail.

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post #24 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 02:31 PM
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When discussing routine maintenance items, don't forget the Fuel Pressure Regulator

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post #25 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
Yeah I don't look at my temp gauge all that often. The thermostat in my bike is 15+yrs old. Reckon I'll pop in a new one fairly soon.
I priced one from Partzilla.
$36 ?? WTF. How can a thermostat be $36?

BTW, looks like the lower rad hose isn't sold any more.

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post #26 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
Yeah I don't look at my temp gauge all that often. The thermostat in my bike is 15+yrs old. Reckon I'll pop in a new one fairly soon.
I priced one from Partzilla.
$36 ?? WTF. How can a thermostat be $36?

BTW, looks like the lower rad hose isn't sold any more.
Hahaha...I know right? If you find a cheaper option let us know.
Think of it this way $36 once every ten years isn't so bad.
Your right, the lower rad hose is not available anymore. I replaced all my hoses with aftermarket silicone hoses.
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post #27 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
$36 ?? WTF. How can a thermostat be $36?



BTW, looks like the lower rad hose isn't sold any more.


Some car thermostats are $50+. OEM Honda thermostats last longer than aftermarket - a lot of car forums are now advising people to suck it up and buy OEM thermostats because aftermarket t-stat quality has tanked.

Not sure if the lower hose is out of production or just backordered. Ive been eyeing some aftermarket silicone hose sets myself.

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post #28 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 03:23 PM
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When discussing routine maintenance items, don't forget the Fuel Pressure Regulator


I literally just ordered mine from the dealer today, going to put it on as part of my next maintenance and upgrade day - sometime when it cools off a bit around here.

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post #29 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 03:53 PM
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Don't forget that Honda has the HRCA discount program. It's free and most dealers participate.


Additionally, you are supposed to replace the bolts the first time you take the thermostat housing off. IIRC, Honda used self-tapper/thread-cutter bolts in assembly to save time, but attempting to reuse those can sometimes result in crossthreading and rendering the entire head useless unless you like playing around with Helicoil sets.

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post #30 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
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Don't forget that Honda has the HRCA discount program. It's free and most dealers participate.


Additionally, you are supposed to replace the bolts the first time you take the thermostat housing off. IIRC, Honda used self-tapper/thread-cutter bolts in assembly to save time, but attempting to reuse those can sometimes result in crossthreading and rendering the entire head useless unless you like playing around with Helicoil sets.
I just had the thermostat housing off my engine so I could paint it. Those two bolts looked like normal bolts to me. I don't remember seeing a thread cutting end, but I could be wrong. I reused them. Mine is a 2002 model.
What bolts should we use to replace them with?

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post #31 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 05:18 PM
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I just had the thermostat housing off my engine so I could paint it. Those two bolts looked like normal bolts to me. I don't remember seeing a thread cutting end, but I could be wrong. I reused them. Mine is a 2002 model.
What bolts should we use to replace them with?


The bolts listed in the fiche/parts manual are non-thread cutter/standard types and are fine.

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post #32 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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I've been running the same tstat in my truck and a few cars for maybe 25 years now, that's why I'm blown away that this one failed.

Finding a cheaper one would be a case of matching the size and temp. IDK what makes them fail, guess it has to be the spring.

What's the part number for hose silicon lower hoses and how much are they?

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post #33 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 05:49 PM
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I went with a UK company, as3.
https://www.as3performance.co.uk/sil...cb-900-hornet/
If you contact them they will sell you a single hose. I brought the whole kit.
They also have an eBay site.

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post #34 of 35 Old 08-15-2019, 06:20 PM
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This is the one currently in my bike. 15 degrees hotter than stock. I wanted to raise the temp to help with the stink. It takes a little dremeling on the flange to get it to seat perfectly.

https://www.amazon.com/Stant-45859-S.../dp/B000C823WI

I have 2 stock (OEM) ones on my shelf that tested perfectly at 180F. If you want one I will send to you, just PM me your address.

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post #35 of 35 Old 08-16-2019, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
I've been running the same tstat in my truck and a few cars for maybe 25 years now, that's why I'm blown away that this one failed.

Finding a cheaper one would be a case of matching the size and temp. IDK what makes them fail, guess it has to be the spring.

What's the part number for hose silicon lower hoses and how much are they?
A silicon hose would be rather hard and rock like. Bit hard to install. A silicone hose might be what you're looking for.

The spring holds the thermostat valve closed on conventional designs and tries to hold the thing open on the 'failsafe' types. The thing that commonly fails is the wax capsule that actually drives the thermostat.




What can kill them faster than in cars is vibration. Motorcycles vibrate far more than cars do and that vibration causes advanced wear.

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