Need new friction plates. - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 22 Old 06-02-2020, 11:45 PM Thread Starter
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Need new friction plates.

Is it worth getting the ones with Kevlar?

Replacing clutch plates when I was a kid, I remember soaking them in gear oil or ATF... Is that still accurate?

Thank you.

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post #2 of 22 Old 06-03-2020, 11:49 AM
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You soak the fiber plates in engine oil overnight. Honda plates are incompatible with engine oils with high concentrations of Molybdenum so be aware of that.



Kevlar plates are not necessary and you will find Honda OEM clutch plates some of the best in the world. Additionally Kevlar plates dirty up the engine oil with debris very quickly.

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post #3 of 22 Old 06-03-2020, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
You soak the fiber plates in engine oil overnight. Honda plates are incompatible with engine oils with high concentrations of Molybdenum so be aware of that.



Kevlar plates are not necessary and you will find Honda OEM clutch plates some of the best in the world. Additionally Kevlar plates dirty up the engine oil with debris very quickly.
Oh no!
Good OEM plates and springs instead of race and/or marketing formulated/race level changeout scheduled plates and the heaviest springs one can cram in is not the answer for a street bike? I'm shattered !!!!!

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post #4 of 22 Old 06-03-2020, 05:41 PM Thread Starter
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Why are there 3 different part numbers for OEM friction plates on partzilla? Is the EBC kit really OEM?

Thank you all.

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post #5 of 22 Old 06-04-2020, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fkmugabe View Post
Why are there 3 different part numbers for OEM friction plates on partzilla? Is the EBC kit really OEM?

Thank you all.

The EBC kit is not OEM; Honda does not use EBC as a vendor for any of their street bikes.


There are three different part numbers for the OEM friction plates because Honda uses three different and distinct types in each clutch stack. This is a multi-disc clutch, so you have alternating friction and drive or steel plates in a stack. It's not like a car where there's a pressure plate with friction material and a flywheel.

Dealer site links embedded below so you can see current MSRP and the parts diagram.

From the engine of the bike out, you will need one of these to go at the bottom of the stack: DISK B, CLUTCH FRICTION. 22202-MAE-000

Then one of the seven steel plates; you will likely be able to reuse your existing ones unless you have excessive wear; IIRC the manual tells you how to check them:
PLATE, CLUTCH, 22321-MAS-000

Then you stick one of the six regular friction discs on top of that: DISK, CLUTCH FRICTION, 22201-MAS-E00

And then you alternate steel, friction disc, steel, friction disc, etc., until you run out of 22201-MAS-E00s and steel plates. At the top or outermost side of the stack as it is installed on the bike is the last type of friction disc: DISK, CLUTCH FRICTION, 22201-MAE-000


The whole thing is topped off with a bearing, BEARING, RADIAL BALL (16003) 91009-MAS-003, which should be replaced and is often not included in aftermarket kits, and the clutch pressure plate, 22350-MAS-E00, which should be reusable unless it has excessive wear.









They don't show the entire stack in the diagram because they figure you're smart enough to figure it out given the parts catalog also tells their mechanics that they need the quantities of parts I've listed above.



Failure to put the discs in the correct order will result in odd behavior from the clutch, extremely accelerated wear or even a completely non-functional clutch. Each of the three types of friction disc have a different design and sometimes different friction material that may not be obvious at first glance.

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post #6 of 22 Old 06-04-2020, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
Oh no!
Good OEM plates and springs instead of race and/or marketing formulated/race level changeout scheduled plates and the heaviest springs one can cram in is not the answer for a street bike? I'm shattered !!!!!

To be fair, there's no shortage of manufacturers whose bikes aren't as well engineered as Honda's where they desperately *need* upgrades even for street usage.


Harley Davidson, anyone?

1986 Honda Nighthawk 700S
2002 Honda 919
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post #7 of 22 Old 06-04-2020, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you tons! This morning I just saw the other WristTwister thread on this.

HD? 2 thoughts: 1) My dad laughed at the thought of an electric HD “Are they going to come out with speakers and ‘aftermarket mp3 files’ for fishtails, shotguns, 2into1’s?”

2) Laugh at people who insist American made is Patriotic... That tea that was dumped into the harbor over an import tariff?... yea... it wasn’t grown in the Western Hemisphere...

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post #8 of 22 Old 06-04-2020, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fkmugabe View Post
Thank you tons! This morning I just saw the other WristTwister thread on this.

HD? 2 thoughts: 1) My dad laughed at the thought of an electric HD “Are they going to come out with speakers and ‘aftermarket mp3 files’ for fishtails, shotguns, 2into1’s?”

2) Laugh at people who insist American made is Patriotic... That tea that was dumped into the harbor over an import tariff?... yea... it wasn’t grown in the Western Hemisphere...



American made *is* patriotic... if the American product is as good as or superior to the competing offerings. Otherwise, buying an inferior product just because it's American made is stupid because it just encourages the production of inferior goods. If you buy crap, you get more crap and worse crap.

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post #9 of 22 Old 06-04-2020, 06:46 PM
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Document created with the content of post #5 by CB700S and put in new folder in Dropbox.
Path is WT_Shared/919/Clutch.

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post #10 of 22 Old 07-03-2020, 11:51 PM Thread Starter
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Replaced friction plates. Steel plates had zero warp. Cleaned and reinstalled. All friction plates in correct order. The bearing in the clutch hub had zero play in any direction and was reused. That bearing as well as the needle bearings the “grab cam shaft?” all received a tiny bit of motor oil before reinstalled.

Anyway.... just idling the bike and checking the friction zone, it works exactly as it should... but the lever is really stiff.

Did I do something wrong?

Thank you all.

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post #11 of 22 Old 07-04-2020, 12:50 AM Thread Starter
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Was I supposed to put the last friction plate clocked differently?

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post #12 of 22 Old 07-04-2020, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Clocked outside friction plate to the half notch.

Still isn’t right.

I think the clutch lifter arm is oriented wrong or something.

I think the lifter arm might be sitting on top of the lifter shaft instead of hooking underneath it. Will look again tonight or tomorrow.

So close yet so far. Having bike riding withdrawals.

Watching some of Brocks really cool informative videos.

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post #13 of 22 Old 07-04-2020, 03:38 PM
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Wouldnt the new friction plates be thicker thus taking up more of the original clutch slack? Kind of like new brakes pads?

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post #14 of 22 Old 07-04-2020, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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^
Probably. It’s good to think about the clutch pack as a whole. I’m not sure how knowing that helps me now.

Thank you.

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post #15 of 22 Old 07-04-2020, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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Grateful to everyone.

My coworker with an FZ1 told me he’s pretty sure the actuator arm/shaft PUSHES the central pin. Whoops! I had it clocked wrong as I thought maybe it pulled the pin.

All is well now. Still not showroom smooth, but definitely workable. Might get a little better as it beds in and the excess oils gets squeezed out!

Probably needs a clutch cable anyway, I might work some light krytox in until I can replace the cable.

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post #16 of 22 Old 07-05-2020, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
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Still messed up. Slips bad. Was I supposed to clock the top 2 friction plates to the half notch? IDK.

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post #17 of 22 Old 07-05-2020, 09:58 PM Thread Starter
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Pretty frustrating!!! Might give up and take it in. Probably didn’t give it my full attention when working on it.

Job, wife, kids. So basically everything is rushed and interrupted.

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post #18 of 22 Old 07-06-2020, 06:48 AM
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Did you soak the plates before installing?
Did you replace the springs? (if not the pull force shouldn't be changed because those springs are what your pulling against)
Have you checked that the lever fully disengages now that you adjusted the arm? It may still be unloading the stack a bit causing it to slip if it's not adjusted correctly.

Also a question that wasn't asked but probably should have been: why are you replacing them? How many miles are on the bike and what were the symptoms? There are many 919's here with over 50k miles still on the original clutch plates with no issues, so it's possible that you had an issue somewhere else that wasn't fixed by replacing clutch parts.

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post #19 of 22 Old 07-06-2020, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
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^ Yes. No, did not measure springs, but they seemed fine. Yes, put a lot of slack in the lever.

Originally replacing because of clutch slipping.

Will order new steel plates. Will measure springs and order new ones if necessary.
Will disassemble and reassemble. Looking at the diagram, pretty sure I installed the judder spring backwards.

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post #20 of 22 Old 07-08-2020, 04:05 PM
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Bad clutch cable? When I first got my 919 it had a kink somewhere in the middle and was way easier to pull after I replaced it. Inspection of the old cable showed a few of the wires of the cable inside had frayed and that caused a heavy clutch pull.

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post #21 of 22 Old 07-27-2020, 10:16 PM Thread Starter
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It was the cable. Duh!!!

When none of the steel plates were warped and all of the fibers still had material on them... shoulda made me slow down and think...

I replaced the springs, the old ones were maybe 2mm shorter than the new ones, but I already had it apart and the new parts next to me.

I just got finished attempting to stretch the throttle cable and break the full throttle stop once I realized there was no slipping.

Thank you all for attempting to help.

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post #22 of 22 Old 07-28-2020, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fkmugabe View Post
It was the cable. Duh!!!

When none of the steel plates were warped and all of the fibers still had material on them... shoulda made me slow down and think...

I replaced the springs, the old ones were maybe 2mm shorter than the new ones, but I already had it apart and the new parts next to me.

I just got finished attempting to stretch the throttle cable and break the full throttle stop once I realized there was no slipping.

Thank you all for attempting to help.
You got to the bottom of it, so you can find some satisfaction in that.

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