Need advice on getting my brakes bled - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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Need advice on getting my brakes bled

Ok, I have 954 brakes on the front of my bike with their remote reservoir. So far, I have attached hoses to the bleeder screws, after putting some teflon tape on them, opened them and let it gravity bleed til the reservoir was low. Did that twice.

Then I bled the left side and have pretty much no bubbles. Switched to the right side and there's lots of bubbles still after running through several reservoirs of fluid.

No lever at all but a little resistance felt.

Any suggestions?

Thank you.

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post #2 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRC27 View Post
Ok, I have 954 brakes on the front of my bike with their remote reservoir. So far, I have attached hoses to the bleeder screws, after putting some teflon tape on them, opened them and let it gravity bleed til the reservoir was low. Did that twice.

Then I bled the left side and have pretty much no bubbles. Switched to the right side and there's lots of bubbles still after running through several reservoirs of fluid.

No lever at all but a little resistance felt.

Any suggestions?

Thank you.
Since you have already done the Teflon routine, the next steps are relatively simple.

1)Open res & fill up with fresh fluid.
2)Connect bleed hose to right caliper bleed valve.
3)Place some sort of container on the other end of the hose
4)Use an 8mm wrench to crack open the bleeder valve 1/4 turn.
5)Pump the master slowly but deliberately & flush out the fluid.
6)Do this process till you see no air bubbles coming out of the calipers bleeder valve.
6)MAKE SURE THE RES does not run out of fluid.
7)Repeat this process for the left caliper.
8)Now repeat steps 1-7.

You want to flush out 2-3 reservoirs worth of fluid for each bleeder valve. The key is to not open more than 1/4 turn. You will see this really firms up your lever when you are done.

EDIT: Some bikes have a bleeder valve on the master. In that case you need to follow the above process for that valve as well.

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post #3 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arshishb View Post
Since you have already done the Teflon routine, the next steps are relatively simple.

1)Open res & fill up with fresh fluid.
2)Connect bleed hose to right caliper bleed valve.
3)Place some sort of container on the other end of the hose
4)Use an 8mm wrench to crack open the bleeder valve 1/4 turn.
5)Pump the master slowly but deliberately & flush out the fluid.
6)Do this process till you see no air bubbles coming out of the calipers bleeder valve.
6)MAKE SURE THE RES does not run out of fluid.
7)Repeat this process for the left caliper.
8)Now repeat steps 1-7.

You want to flush out 2-3 reservoirs worth of fluid for each bleeder valve. The key is to not open more than 1/4 turn. You will see this really firms up your lever when you are done.

EDIT: Some bikes have a bleeder valve on the master. In that case you need to follow the above process for that valve as well.
Thank you brother. Can I leave the cap off the reservoir through out or does it need to be installed with each re-fill?


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post #4 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by HRC27 View Post
Thank you brother. Can I leave the cap off the reservoir through out or does it need to be installed with each re-fill?

You can leave the cap off. It will take you not more than a min to go through a res full of fluid if the rest of the factors in the equation are right (clean hose, new washers etc.)

I forgot to mention earlier, when you do start bleeding, first make sure your bleed hose gets full of fluid before you start looking for air bubbles.

This method of bleeding is very simple albeit a little slow. The teflon tape makes your bleeder valve one way so when you pump your master, you are basically flushing the fluid out without sucking any air in. I usually run an entire small bottle of cheap brake fluid through the system & always get a good lever.

The 954/RC51 setup is phenomenal, you will love it. Best brakes I have experienced on 2 wheels.

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post #5 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks man, I really appreciate it.

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post #6 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 12:54 PM
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I have no clue what this res looks like.. but on the brakes i've bled the master has a piston or something, and if you pump to hard (almost at all) with the cap off it will shoot a stream of fluid out. I'd lay the cap on the top while you do it.
Again sorry if that's totally misguided but something to look out for.

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post #7 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 02:56 PM
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Have you tried doing a reverse bleed first?

And if you are getting even just a little bit of pressure in the lever, you are already 90% there, just keep going.

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post #8 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
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What's a reverse bleed brother? Thanks man.

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post #9 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 03:06 PM
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Haha, you asked for it:


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post #10 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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Dang, great video man. Where did you get your syringes?

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post #11 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRC27 View Post
Dang, great video man. Where did you get your syringes?
From when my wife was in the hospital, unfortunately .

But you should be able to pick them up at a medical supply store or Amazon, etc.

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post #12 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
From when my wife was in the hospital, unfortunately .

But you should be able to pick them up at a medical supply store or Amazon, etc.
Look for a local farm supply store too.

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post #13 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 05:31 PM
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Look for a local farm supply store too.
Yep. I know Tractor Supply carries them and they are pretty cheap.

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post #14 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 05:42 PM
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Mity-vac is your friend...no better way to bleed brakes...

http://www.mityvac.com

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post #15 of 30 Old 06-09-2014, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
From when my wife was in the hospital, unfortunately .

But you should be able to pick them up at a medical supply store or Amazon, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmb View Post
Look for a local farm supply store too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
Yep. I know Tractor Supply carries them and they are pretty cheap.
Nice. I have a Tractor Supply within a few minutes walking distance. Thanks guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morgstang View Post
Mity-vac is your friend...no better way to bleed brakes...

Mityvac
Man, I used to have one too but gave it away as I could bleed my dirtbikes brakes without it and had no streetbikes. Duh!

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post #16 of 30 Old 06-10-2014, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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Problem

Ok, while trying to bleed them through both methods, I had no luck. I decided to check my install and found a problem.

First, if you look at the bango bolt and crush washers on the caliper, everything is nice and aligned and looks correct.



Now, look at the master cylinders bango bolt/washers. Clearly, the M/C stop is pushing up on the washers and I could feel where there was a slight leak. I didn't check to confirm they were correct. They were from the original owner who had purchased a bunch of new front brake parts.

Do you think they are the wrong ones? They look too dang big to me. Would you order the known correct bolt/washers or just see if Autozone had some copper ones in the right size?

Thank you.


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post #17 of 30 Old 06-11-2014, 07:11 AM
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Those look larger than expected. I wonder if they are even crush washers to begin with.

You could reuse your original washers from the 919. Or just take them to Autozone & ask them to match them.

I ordered these last week & they worked perfectly on the GSXR, all the same on the Honda & should work just fine.

Amazon.com: Earl's 177101ERL 10mm Copper Crush Washers Pkg of 10: Automotive

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post #18 of 30 Old 06-11-2014, 09:35 AM
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Yeah, try a new set of crush washers... They are cheap.

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post #19 of 30 Old 06-11-2014, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arshishb View Post
Those look larger than expected. I wonder if they are even crush washers to begin with.

You could reuse your original washers from the 919. Or just take them to Autozone & ask them to match them.

I ordered these last week & they worked perfectly on the GSXR, all the same on the Honda & should work just fine.

Amazon.com: Earl's 177101ERL 10mm Copper Crush Washers Pkg of 10: Automotive
Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post
Yeah, try a new set of crush washers... They are cheap.
I actually ordered the OE ones listed for the 954 from Rocky Mtn last night. I had used a clean but used bolt so I have one of them coming too. RM is not the best on price but their shipping is really fast.

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post #20 of 30 Old 06-11-2014, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRC27 View Post
I actually ordered the OE ones listed for the 954 from Rocky Mtn last night. I had used a clean but used bolt so I have one of them coming too. RM is not the best on price but their shipping is really fast.
If money was no object, you could have gotten a few from any motorcycle dealer. Just about all motorcycles use the same size brake crush washers.

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post #21 of 30 Old 06-11-2014, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arshishb View Post
If money was no object, you could have gotten a few from any motorcycle dealer. Just about all motorcycles use the same size brake crush washers.
Very true.

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post #22 of 30 Old 06-11-2014, 12:30 PM
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If there is an air leak at the top banjo you would know as soon as there is even a little feel at the lever -- fluid will appear when the lever is pulled. Since it isn't, that's not where the problem lies.

There is a simple way to get enough lever to bleed the system.

-- First, orient the master cylinder such that the lever is pointing slightly skyward and the reservoir fluid fitting is pointing straight up: this gives any air a straight shot at the compensating port in order to escape.

-- Second, remove the brake pads from the right caliper, replace them with pieces of wood slightly thicker than the pad's backing plates (MDF works nicely here) to prevent the pistons departure from the caliper body, and try to pump up the brakes -- the empty caliper's pistons should move, though probably not very much at first. That's all right, you're getting more fluid into the caliper where it needs to be. A side effect of this will also be to force any air in the master cylinder out into the reservoir. Be sure to keep sufficient fluid in the reservoir lest your efforts come to naught. I recommend slowly squeezing the lever, then letting it snap back quickly -- the sudden low pressure combined with the retracting pistons will force more fluid and air into the reservoir. You should see copious bubbles appear in the reservoir at first. Usually, this is enough to get a semi decent feel from the lever. Continue to pump the brakes until the pistons trap the wooden blocks against the disc.

-- Third, empty all but a small amount of the fluid from the reservoir, place a rag over it, and retract the pistons slowly. DO NOT PRY AGINST THE ROTORS!!! They may bend if you do. If there is any remaining air it should be expelled. Continue retracting the pistons until they are fully in the caliper. Reinstall the pads and pump up the brakes. Odds are the lever will be as firm as you have ever felt. If not, there is air in the other caliper that needs to be dealt with. Usually, I use the above procedure on the other side as well.

In over 35 years of servicing motorcycle brakes I have found this method is by far the easiest and most economical. It is, in fact, my method of installing SS lines: flush the fluid, use the wooden block method to fully extend the pistons, tie the brake lever to the grip to prevent fluid escaping / air entering the master cylinder, remove the old lines and install the SS lines, free the lever, and retract the pistons. Voila! A perfect bleed in 5 minutes or less, and little extra fluid needed, in fact only enough to flush the system and fill the lines.

By the way, I have made my own sealing washers for years. All you need is as many pre 1982 pennies (they are all copper) as the number of sealing washers needed, a hand drill, basic hand tools, and sandpaper. Sand off all the features from both sides, drill a hole as close to centered as possible and slightly larger than the banjo / fitting bolt (holding the penny by the edge with a pair of curved jaw vice grips, and going slow with gradually increasing drill sizes, or a christmas tree bit works nicely), drop the banjo bolt into the hole to mark the OD necessary to seal properly, and using a pair of aviation snips trim the penny down to the appropriate size. Sand the edge round and the sealing surfaces with the finest grit sandpaper you have, heat it until it glows red then quench to anneal it, and you're good to go. Not only does it cost a penny per washer, but it is also legal to deface a penny.

Bon chance.

Rob

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post #23 of 30 Old 06-11-2014, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
If there is an air leak at the top banjo you would know as soon as there is even a little feel at the lever -- fluid will appear when the lever is pulled. Since it isn't, that's not where the problem lies.

There is a simple way to get enough lever to bleed the system.

-- First, orient the master cylinder such that the lever is pointing slightly skyward and the reservoir fluid fitting is pointing straight up: this gives any air a straight shot at the compensating port in order to escape.

-- Second, remove the brake pads from the right caliper, replace them with pieces of wood slightly thicker than the pad's backing plates (MDF works nicely here) to prevent the pistons departure from the caliper body, and try to pump up the brakes -- the empty caliper's pistons should move, though probably not very much at first. That's all right, you're getting more fluid into the caliper where it needs to be. A side effect of this will also be to force any air in the master cylinder out into the reservoir. Be sure to keep sufficient fluid in the reservoir lest your efforts come to naught. I recommend slowly squeezing the lever, then letting it snap back quickly -- the sudden low pressure combined with the retracting pistons will force more fluid and air into the reservoir. You should see copious bubbles appear in the reservoir at first. Usually, this is enough to get a semi decent feel from the lever. Continue to pump the brakes until the pistons trap the wooden blocks against the disc.

-- Third, empty all but a small amount of the fluid from the reservoir, place a rag over it, and retract the pistons slowly. DO NOT PRY AGINST THE ROTORS!!! They may bend if you do. If there is any remaining air it should be expelled. Continue retracting the pistons until they are fully in the caliper. Reinstall the pads and pump up the brakes. Odds are the lever will be as firm as you have ever felt. If not, there is air in the other caliper that needs to be dealt with. Usually, I use the above procedure on the other side as well.

In over 35 years of servicing motorcycle brakes I have found this method is by far the easiest and most economical. It is, in fact, my method of installing SS lines: flush the fluid, use the wooden block method to fully extend the pistons, tie the brake lever to the grip to prevent fluid escaping / air entering the master cylinder, remove the old lines and install the SS lines, free the lever, and retract the pistons. Voila! A perfect bleed in 5 minutes or less, and little extra fluid needed, in fact only enough to flush the system and fill the lines.

By the way, I have made my own sealing washers for years. All you need is as many pre 1982 pennies (they are all copper) as the number of sealing washers needed, a hand drill, basic hand tools, and sandpaper. Sand off all the features from both sides, drill a hole as close to centered as possible and slightly larger than the banjo / fitting bolt (holding the penny by the edge with a pair of curved jaw vice grips, and going slow with gradually increasing drill sizes, or a christmas tree bit works nicely), drop the banjo bolt into the hole to mark the OD necessary to seal properly, and using a pair of aviation snips trim the penny down to the appropriate size. Sand the edge round and the sealing surfaces with the finest grit sandpaper you have, heat it until it glows red then quench to anneal it, and you're good to go. Not only does it cost a penny per washer, but it is also legal to deface a penny.

Bon chance.

Rob
Steve can actually do both of these procedures while riding and answering customer service calls.

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post #24 of 30 Old 06-11-2014, 02:36 PM Thread Starter
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Cool, thanks guys and to everyone.

Robert

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post #25 of 30 Old 06-16-2014, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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Got my washers and bolt in today and got it bled out so all is good.

Thanks guys.

Robert

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post #26 of 30 Old 09-17-2014, 07:36 PM
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Figured id move into this thread since its not being used.. while flushing and bleeding the brakes today, I came across some stuff in the M/C.


ForumRunner_20140917_193152.jpg

The gelatinous stuff around the bottom edges..

ForumRunner_20140917_193207.png

This is what it looks like up close.

I got the stuff out via turkey baster but im worried about the rest of the system.

Anybody seen this?

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post #27 of 30 Old 09-17-2014, 09:45 PM
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Someone tried to "upgrade" to dot5 but shortly realized their mistake?


I've been into 2 919 m/c reservoirs. 7k on one, 30k on the other. I saw nothing like that.

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post #28 of 30 Old 09-17-2014, 11:16 PM
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You think flushing the system is enough?

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post #29 of 30 Old 09-18-2014, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickr919 View Post
You think flushing the system is enough?
At a minimum.

I would pull the lines, calipers, m/c and clean everything liberally with water. Pop the pistons out of the calipers as well, re-grease the seals, then put it all back together with a good bleed.

Looks like you've got water or some other contaminant in the system.

Don't mess with brakes (as in, don't let negligence in maintenance slide), make sure they work always!

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post #30 of 30 Old 09-18-2014, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00gl3it View Post

At a minimum.

I would pull the lines, calipers, m/c and clean everything liberally with water. Pop the pistons out of the calipers as well, re-grease the seals, then put it all back together with a good bleed.

Looks like you've got water or some other contaminant in the system.

Don't mess with brakes (as in, don't let negligence in maintenance slide), make sure they work always!
Thanks goog.

I have alot of maintenance coming up and ill have her down for a week or so. I'll flush it all then.

I put about 3 resivors through the lines in the mean time and the same with the rear im glad I caught it when I did.

Ill keep an eye on her

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