Initial fork settings, how many turns? - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 13 Old 10-07-2019, 02:13 PM Thread Starter
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Initial fork settings, how many turns?

Best I can tell, the inner adjustment is about 3/4 turn from bottoming out and the outer adjustment is 4 lines showing, 4th just about hidden.

Note: Bottoming out on the inner adjustment is defined as clockwise, so it's 3/4 turn counter clockwise after all the way clockwise.

It's kinda hard to tell the middle because the counter clockwise doesn't seem to have a hard stopping point.

Does that seem like a good starting setting after new fluid?

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post #2 of 13 Old 10-07-2019, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
Best I can tell, the inner adjustment is about 3/4 turn from bottoming out and the outer adjustment is 4 lines showing, 4th just about hidden.

Note: Bottoming out on the inner adjustment is defined as clockwise, so it's 3/4 turn counter clockwise after all the way clockwise.

It's kinda hard to tell the middle because the counter clockwise doesn't seem to have a hard stopping point.

Does that seem like a good starting setting after new fluid?
The Inner is the Low Speed Rebound Damping adjustment.
3/4 is WAY TOO STIFF !
Your starting point with 10 W should be 1.5 turns out.

The other one is fine as is.

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post #3 of 13 Old 10-07-2019, 10:28 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
The Inner is the Low Speed Rebound Damping adjustment.
3/4 is WAY TOO STIFF !
Your starting point with 10 W should be 1.5 turns out.

The other one is fine as is.
I don't think it has more than 1.5 turns out, but I'll double check. I think the 3/4 was the mid point.

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post #4 of 13 Old 10-08-2019, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
I don't think it has more than 1.5 turns out, but I'll double check. I think the 3/4 was the mid point.
The caps should be fitted such that there is a nominal 3 turns available.

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post #5 of 13 Old 10-08-2019, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
The caps should be fitted such that there is a nominal 3 turns available.
So there's only two adjustments, the outer adjustment is 4 lines showing and the 4th one is just barely showing. I thought that was a common starting point but it was so long ago I don't remember, that just where I had them before.

So let me guess what I have to do to get more turns available, it's the nut under cap. So I have to remove the cap, lift it up and move that 14mm nut up higher?

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post #6 of 13 Old 10-08-2019, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
So there's only two adjustments, the outer adjustment is 4 lines showing and the 4th one is just barely showing. I thought that was a common starting point but it was so long ago I don't remember, that just where I had them before.

So let me guess what I have to do to get more turns available, it's the nut under cap. So I have to remove the cap, lift it up and move that 14mm nut up higher?
Here's a cheater method for you.
I recollect that you have a vernier caliper.

Release the fork caps from the cartridge rods.
Back out the adjuster screw until you have 2 mm of height above the tower it threads into.
Then turn the screw counterclockwise 1.5 turns.
Then turn the screw three turns in.
Now refit the fork caps, very carefully and gently threading them on the rod until you barely feel the needle seat touching the needle seat.
Back out the adjuster screw 1/4 or 1/2 a turn, it matters not, just pick one, 1/2 is likely easier re the screw slot visually being in the same position.
Now do up the 14 mm lock nut.
Then refit the fork caps.
Then very gently bottom out the needles in the seats again.
Then count how many turns out you get, and it should be at least 3.
Then again very gently bottom out the needles in the seats again.
Then back them out 1.5 turns.
This is your starting point re low speed rebound damping adjustment.
My guess is that you'll not go firmer than 1 -3/8s nor softer than 1-7/8s turns out from gently seated, given my understanding that you are using nominal 10 W oil.

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post #7 of 13 Old 10-08-2019, 10:00 AM
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My cheater method is based on my doing a vernier of where my screws are, and knowing how many turns out they are, and my not wanting to touch them.
Hence the 2 mm dimension I gave you.

As part of the assembly, one is wise to do a vernier measurement and note the dimension, of the height from the top of the screw down to the ring marked tower end face, with the screws out 3 turns from their gently seated position.

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post #8 of 13 Old 10-08-2019, 10:03 AM
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I just found a write up I did for another member, here it is :

Rebound Rod Set Up re Fork Cap Re-Fitment
________________________________________
CAUTION
If you are not sure of how to set up the rebound rod during final fork cap re-fitment such that you don't ruin it or have it out of range, say so, and I can do bit of blurb on that too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay313
Got me. I followed the service manual, but don't remember anything about a rebound rod set up. I'm making you work too hard for this.
You won't find this in the manual, or most manuals for that matter.

The issue is this, rebound rod needle ends must never be bottomed out in the taper when you are breaking loose or nipping up the cartridge rod's locknut against the mating surface of the fork cap where the rod threads in.

Proper procedure before disassembly is to very lightly bottom out the needle.
Then back out the rebound adjuster 1/2 turn (or 1/4 or 1, it matters not, as long as you know what you used, I use 1/2).
Then loosen the cartridge rod lock nut.
Once you have the fork cap and rebound adjuster rod out of the fork tube and in your hand, turn the rebound adjuster rod back in the same amount.
When you go to reassemble, very lightly run the cap down on the rebound rod until its needle end very lightly seats.
Then back out the rebound adjuster 1/2 turn (or 1/4 or 1, it matters not, as long as you know what you used, I use 1/2).
Then tighten the cartridge rod lock nut.
Then turn the rebound adjuster back in until it again very lightly seats.
Then back it out all the way, and count how many turns you get.
It should be around 3.
Then turn the rebound adjuster all the way again until it very lightly seats again.
Back out 2 full turns, and use that as your starting point.
IF you find you can't get 2 full turns, then you have a problem, likely from the rod being improperly positioned in the fork cap to begin with. Too many turns is also a bad indicator.
If you find yourself in either predicament, it just means that the rebound adjuster rod was set to high or too low in the fork cap to begin with.

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post #9 of 13 Old 10-09-2019, 05:37 AM Thread Starter
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I wish I knew or saw this when I was putting things together. I didn't even realize that the nut inside would cause me to not have a full or proper range of adjustment...

Now I have to take the forks off again or remove the handle bars because you can't remove the top without at least sliding the forks down a bit.

I guess I can jack up the front, slide the forks down mid way of the clamps while resting the tire on the ground, then open the tops.

This info should have been in the manual TBH. I didn't even stop to think about why that nut had so much room or that it could have been some kind of adjustment.

Live and learn

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post #10 of 13 Old 10-09-2019, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
I wish I knew or saw this when I was putting things together. I didn't even realize that the nut inside would cause me to not have a full or proper range of adjustment...

Now I have to take the forks off again or remove the handle bars because you can't remove the top without at least sliding the forks down a bit.

I guess I can jack up the front, slide the forks down mid way of the clamps while resting the tire on the ground, then open the tops.

This info should have been in the manual TBH. I didn't even stop to think about why that nut had so much room or that it could have been some kind of adjustment.

Live and learn
At least it's an easy fix and no damage has been done, so it could be far worse.
Agreed that such info should be in the manual.
The manual is good, but not perfect.
Personally, I'd first try removing the bars instead of dropping the tubes to get decent access to the caps.

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post #11 of 13 Old 10-09-2019, 07:58 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
At least it's an easy fix and no damage has been done, so it could be far worse.
Agreed that such info should be in the manual.
The manual is good, but not perfect.
Personally, I'd first try removing the bars instead of dropping the tubes to get decent access to the caps.
You're right, but I'm going to force myself to reset the bars again. I set the bars (bounce up and down) while holding it straight instead of being on the rear stand. IDK if it matters or not.

While I was using the rear stand, the bike started sliding up the stand (the sand was working it way towards the front of the bike).

I have the rear stand with the flat holders instead of the round ones that hold onto a peg and they started working from the rear towards the front. I noticed this as I was trying to set the forks.

IDK how you can tell if your forks need setting or not, or how close they are.

Q. Is there any way to tell if your forks aren't properly set?

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post #12 of 13 Old 10-09-2019, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
You're right, but I'm going to force myself to reset the bars again. I set the bars (bounce up and down) while holding it straight instead of being on the rear stand. IDK if it matters or not.

While I was using the rear stand, the bike started sliding up the stand (the sand was working it way towards the front of the bike).

I have the rear stand with the flat holders instead of the round ones that hold onto a peg and they started working from the rear towards the front. I noticed this as I was trying to set the forks.

IDK how you can tell if your forks need setting or not, or how close they are.

Q. Is there any way to tell if your forks aren't properly set?
In terms of rebound setting, the thing to remember is that too much is infinitely worse than not enough.
Too much rebound results in packing, where each successive "bump" results in less "jounce" and the forks effectively get shorter and increasingly less compliant.
Start at 1.5 turns out.
Go 1/8th in, and try it out.
Go back out 1/4 so you're at 1-7/8, and try that out.
Once you get to 1-3/8 out, do you increments in 1/16ths of a turn in either direction.
Be wary of anything less than 1-3/8ths with 10W oil!
Try it out means ride it on roads you know, find some bumps, find some sweeping turns, use the brake.
Really scrutinize the feel you are getting.

Re knowing if they are improperly set.
Motorcycles are very much predominantly Rebound vehicles re the necessary damping force.
So if the front end feels like a "springer", as in all spring, no damping, then there is not enough damping force.
If the front end feels "wooden" and lacking subtle compliance over dips and crowns, then it's too stiff.
It can only be determined by riding in association with comparative assessment, hence the trying of various settings in methodical way.
Just find what you like, but keep in mind that the human tendency can easily be "too much is better without realizing it", so make a point of trying something lighter for a spell, before blowing off the feel in an instant as being too soft, when it actually might be better but just taking some getting used to.
Hence the call for a road ride of varying conditions and concentrating on the feel for the range of conditions.

Do NOT combine ride height changes with rebound changes!
Set your rings so half are showing, in other words mid point.
Get your rebound where you want it.
Then try up and down on the rings to see where you want the ride height.
For your first ride height checks, go up 2 rings, then down 4 rings to see what you can feel.
That will tell you whether to zero in on above or below mid point.
Once you have done that, then try 1 ring at a time on whichever side of mid point has been decided upon.
You likely won't be able to detect a 1 ring change, but it's OK to pretend you can!

There is a "bench check" for initial setup.
This is very very ballpark, per Max McAllister at Traxxion.
Straddle the bike and with as much energy one can muster, do jounce bounce cycles with someone watching the top of the forks.
At release of the bars/cessation of force input into the bars, watch the top of the forks.
If they simply stop at top out, the rebound is too firm.
They should cycle a wee bit once at top out.
Again, this is very ballpark and useful if you don't already have a known/proven starting point setting.
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post #13 of 13 Old 10-14-2019, 08:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quick update: I removed the forks to reset the position of the nut under the cap. Looks like about 1/2" was more than enough to do the trick. I did the bounce setting where it bounces back up quickly and drops down about 1/2" then stops.

It wasn't 3 turns, it was more like 2 and 1/2" of thread below the nut makes it so that the screw goes down in the hole, which I don't like because if you use a thick screwdriver, you're hitting the edges of the housing and a smaller screwdriver fits loose. It's like you need a thick narrow screwdriver, but it's not the kind of thing I see adjusting all the time. I think 1/4" of thread below the nut would have been better but not worth redoing everything for that.

The new tire is holding steady air pressure so everything looks good so far for the front end rebuild. I'll put some miles on her and see how she feels.

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