ignition control and injector flow - Wrist Twisters
 
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post #1 of 14 Old 04-19-2015, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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ignition control and injector flow

two silly questions:
1: does anyone have a map of the factory ignition advance? im replacing my ecu, and will have to build my ignition map from scratch. could take a while unless i can find a factory one i can copy for a base.

2: does anyone know what the flow rate is on the 919 injectors? or 929? such information would be nice to know for initial fuel settings. i have googled the snot out of them and cant find much good info.

Thanks boys and girls!

30,000 mile 919 survivor. No plans of stopping the abuse any time soon.
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post #2 of 14 Old 04-19-2015, 01:05 PM
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You may have some luck with Dynojet on both questions. They have equipment that adjusts both.

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post #3 of 14 Old 04-19-2015, 02:42 PM
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Why will you have to rebuild the ignition map from scratch? Can you find a used ecu and use that instead?

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post #4 of 14 Old 04-19-2015, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
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I have plenty of factory ecus, and a PC. However, I'm converting to a megasquirt and 929tb's. I could spend a bunch of money on PC things, but it won't do what I have intended for the project.
I have a 900rr head, so no cam sensor; instead I'll be using bank injection, but I'll have many more options for ECU controlled outputs/ safety features. Egt safeties, afr limits, electric shifter, and if I decide to boost later I'll have a host of goodies available. Real-world: I could have just left it and had fun, but I like taking things that work well and changing stuff 'til something breaks... I'm a manly man like that.
Does that answer the question at hand?

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post #5 of 14 Old 04-19-2015, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Also, it would just be nice to know what the factory injectors flow. It's just good stuff to have a handle on!

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post #6 of 14 Old 04-19-2015, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrat View Post
Also, it would just be nice to know what the factory injectors flow. It's just good stuff to have a handle on!
I completely forgot that you had dived in deep. My apologies. I was under the impression for some reason that your ecu was fried and just needed a replacement. That must of been someone else.

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post #7 of 14 Old 04-19-2015, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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No worries! I guess I'm the first to go this route, so hurdles such as this are expected and somewhat appreciated. I've ventured well beyond the plug-and-play realms I guess... I have the tech-savvy level of a broken hammer handle, but the WT community has a whole slew of geniuses and wizards, so I had to ask!

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post #8 of 14 Old 04-19-2015, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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I'll also start a thread (I've taken like 8 zillion pictures of things so far) and give my best summary of events once I stumble through the first race day. I have LOTS of learning, wiring, learning, welding, learning, fab'ing, and bastardizing to do first. Has anyone seen side-by-side 900rr/919 heads? It's almost ridiculous how much they necked down the 919...

image-938301605.jpg

The RR ports are like garbage cans, even next to my ridonkulously hogged out 919 head...

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post #9 of 14 Old 04-19-2015, 06:51 PM
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did the head end up bolting right to the block?

Either way good luck in your venture!!! thats one hell of a project.

And yup the intake ports on the 9er head are small... thats how she makes her streetable low end power by keeping air velocity up.

And fuck it... why not just stick with carbs?

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post #10 of 14 Old 04-19-2015, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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Bolt for bolt. I had to move my coolant sensor from the t-stat area to the left side, swap tstat housings, and I cleaned up the ports/ general rebuild since it was all apart.
Trust me, I've though about popping my old head and intake setup back on a few times, plugging in the factory box and PC and ripping it, buuuut... I'm in this project to learn, stretch my horizons, and give myself what I think is a better base for a performance motor without losing (too much) drivability.
Honestly, who has been riding a 900rr on the street and said "I sure wish I had more midrange and off-idle torque"? I'm sure I'll be able to make due on the street

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post #11 of 14 Old 04-20-2015, 12:58 AM
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Shoot bucky a pm maybe he will know about the injectors. He had a fair amount of tuning on his Nos 919

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post #12 of 14 Old 04-20-2015, 06:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodyeee View Post
Shoot bucky a pm maybe he will know about the injectors. He had a fair amount of tuning on his Nos 919
ah yes... Bucky... I never ever see him anymore... Where did he go?

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post #13 of 14 Old 04-20-2015, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrat View Post
two silly questions:
1: does anyone have a map of the factory ignition advance? im replacing my ecu, and will have to build my ignition map from scratch. could take a while unless i can find a factory one i can copy for a base.

2: does anyone know what the flow rate is on the 919 injectors? or 929? such information would be nice to know for initial fuel settings. i have googled the snot out of them and cant find much good info.

Thanks boys and girls!
I certainly hope you can find a 3D copy of the ignition map. Otherwise you are going to have to work it out yourself: not a simple task! The problem you face with the Megasquirt unit is synchronization of the input from the Crankshaft Position Sensor (CPS) to true TDC of the #1 and #4 pistons, something the CPS does not do. It is a symmetrical 12 pole sensor providing a pulse every 30 degrees of crankshaft revolution. Without an input from the TDC sensor mounted on the cam the ECU does not have the information necessary to sync the ignition pulse to the crankshaft position. Commonly, if there is only a CPS the rotor has either a missing pole or a double pole positioned some 60 degrees BTDC which the ECU "sees", and the next pulse is interpreted as a sync for determination of ignition timing. In this case cylinders 1 and 4 sync to that, while cylinders 2 and 3 sync to 6 pulses after that. The problem you face is working up a map that takes a variety of inputs into consideration: the basic timing determined by RPM modified by (in no particular order) throttle position, the change in throttle position from the previous reading, the rate of change (rolling on the throttle as opposed to snapping it open), MAP sensor input indicating load, coolant temperature, rate of change of engine speed, proximity of RPM to redline, and whether you want a hard or soft rev limit.

There is a way to kludge up a simulator that will give you a way to determine the stock map by generating inputs that emulate the ones on the 919, but it will take some sophisticated electronics and a dual trace storage type oscilloscope in order to obtain the necessary data to write a map. Fortunately there are o'scope packages that can be installed in a standard PC, greatly simplifying the data collection process, but with the amount of data generated it will take some time to interpret it and write a useful base map. One thing's sure: you will be learning volumes!

Undoubtedly Megasquirt can provide the information necessary to accomplish this, but whether they can also provide a map is up for grabs.

As to determining the flow rate of the injectors -- it's pretty simple to do by dismounting one, mount it to flow into an accurately graduated beaker, feeding it fuel at ~40 PSI, activating it for a predetermined period of time and accurately measuring the amount of fuel it flows in that time. Pretty simple compared to everything else you will be doing.

Sounds like a great project! Keep us in the loop.

Rob

If it has already been done, it is safe to assume it is possible to do it.
On the other hand, if it has not been done never assume it is impossible to do it.
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post #14 of 14 Old 04-20-2015, 10:18 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Rob! The ms will give me a basic 3d map, based on engine parameters... As with the ignition map. However, I'd feel safer to see some type of existing map to compare before I melt pistons or wreck something else; as for the crank wheel, one tooth will be removed ahead of TDC for a reference, and the software allows you to dial exactly how much tooth offset you have for true tdc.

30,000 mile 919 survivor. No plans of stopping the abuse any time soon.
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