I toasted my ECM... - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 33 Old 05-20-2017, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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I toasted my ECM...

'07 919 with 8000 miles. A couple weeks ago, my bike died on me as I was riding. I started it again and it idled fine, but it died as soon as I started moving again. Assuming it was a fuel supply problem, I checked all the lines, the pump, FOR, and replaced the fuel filter.

I put the bike back together, and went to start it when I noticed a leak from the tank gasket (I didn't replace it). The sun was setting and I was rushing, so I dropped the sending unit without taking off the tank, hoping I could adjust it a bit and get the gasket seated. That's when I dropped the sending unit, still connected to the 3P connector, and the banjo bolt of the fuel line hit the positive battery terminal.

There was a plume of smoke some sounds of shorting, and now the fuel pump does not prime when I turn the bike on. The ground wire for the pump was charred, so I replaced it, and I checked all the fuses & relays per the manual for when the pump won't run, as well as the kickstand sensor, kill switch, and bank angle sensor. I also bypassed the pump to make sure it runs on its own and its fine.

So it seems like I'm down to a fried ECM. Does anyone know if there's anything else I can check, and if I need to pick up an ECM, will a used on from an '02 be plug and play?

Thanks guys..

So it seems like the

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post #2 of 33 Old 05-20-2017, 03:18 PM
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Man that sux. Remind me to completely remove battery from bike when working on stuff like this, yikes. If all your connections, fuses, sensors and switches are fine then that only leaves the ECM. Bugger. The ECM's from all years should be fine in your 2007 model. Good luck.

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post #3 of 33 Old 05-20-2017, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks man. Definitely a valuable lesson on doing the extra, boring steps every time.

I'll update once the new ecm is in. Hopefully this post doesn't turn into an electrical saga.

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post #4 of 33 Old 05-20-2017, 07:08 PM
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I had a problem with a bike before and it ended up being the kill switch. I took it apart, cleaned the connections and it started working again.

Basically the weather, dirt, etc gets in there and screw it up. A bit of fine sandpaper does the trick.

I think there is also a tilt-kill switch on EFI bikes. Basically if the switch thinks you are down, it kills the pump so it won't spray fuel on a fire.

There should be a straight forward test to determine the fault, but I have no clue what it is. I'd just go one thing at a time and figure out what's getting power and what's not. Simple test light should do it.

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post #5 of 33 Old 05-21-2017, 06:16 AM
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Have you replaced the battery?

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post #6 of 33 Old 05-21-2017, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redline919 View Post
Have you replaced the battery?
Very good advice. At least have it load tested to eliminate it before you replace any more stuff. 90% of the electrical gremlins reported on this forum end with "it was the battery".

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post #7 of 33 Old 05-21-2017, 11:08 AM
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Well, I think it is rearly the battery itselves, but bad maintenance, discharging or other other electrical components creating problems to the battery, and in the end the battery is the one to blame :-)

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post #8 of 33 Old 05-21-2017, 11:20 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by marylandmike View Post
Very good advice. At least have it load tested to eliminate it before you replace any more stuff. 90% of the electrical gremlins reported on this forum end with "it was the battery".
I tested it with the good ole multimeter and it seems fine - it's been sleeping on a tender while the bike is in pieces. Also, when connected, I'm still getting spark.

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post #9 of 33 Old 05-21-2017, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
I had a problem with a bike before and it ended up being the kill switch. I took it apart, cleaned the connections and it started working again.

Basically the weather, dirt, etc gets in there and screw it up. A bit of fine sandpaper does the trick.

I think there is also a tilt-kill switch on EFI bikes. Basically if the switch thinks you are down, it kills the pump so it won't spray fuel on a fire.

There should be a straight forward test to determine the fault, but I have no clue what it is. I'd just go one thing at a time and figure out what's getting power and what's not. Simple test light should do it.
Took the kill switch apart when I checked the fuses, relays, and back angle sensor last week. No corrosion and still had a healthy coating of dielectric around the leads. Also, I can get the starter to crank, so I'm thinking the kill switch is OK.

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post #10 of 33 Old 05-21-2017, 03:39 PM
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It's kind of a PITA, but if you can find out exactly what is "dying" when you start moving that would be a big help.

A few categories of problems: electrical, mech, and fuel.

If the fuel shut off, you'd probably spit-and-sputter then die.
If it's spark, you'd just die.

Once it died, I assume you tried to restart it and it cranked.

If that's the case, then a fired ECM would mean bad fuel delivery. You should be able to check if you have fuel pressure or check if the fuel pump has power.

I'd create the situation where it dies, apply a test light to the fuel pump leads and see if it's getting power.

I don't know if there's a safe way to test fuel pressure, I think that some EFI systems pulse the pump to help keep it cool, others just return the fuel to the tank by a pressure reg.

It could be a weak connection to the pump, assuming you have voltage to it, the engine cranks and you have spark when cranking.

You could install an inline pressure gauge or see how the system regulates fuel pressure.

Also a test light or hearing rod on the injectors when you crank should show if they are getting signal.

I don't know how sensitive the fuel system is to voltage/pressure but that's probably where I'd look based on what you've said so far.

Could be that once you get running, the demands on the fuel system changes and that's what causes it to die.

Another option is to replace the FPR or find the factory way of testing it.

Would weak voltage /amps to the fuel pump cause a pressure drop?

What about a clogged fuel filter? No clue how to change those or even where they are.

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post #11 of 33 Old 05-21-2017, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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There's two different problems at hand, the first is the bike dying while riding, which I'm hoping I addressed by replacing the fuel filter (it's in the tank, inline after the fuel pump), and the fuel pressure regulator. With this issue, the bike started and idled, but sputtered and died (complete with flickering lights on the gauge cluster) once I got it going enough to shift into 2nd gear. If I pulled over and restarted it, it ran fine until I got up to 15-20 mph again. Rinse & repeat. That makes me think it is a fuel supply problem, but I'm hoping the fuel pressure regulator is the culprit, as the bike sat for a long time before I owned it. Altogether, I replaced the fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator, and a couple of fuel lines that looked aged.

I really like the idea of attaching a light to the fuel pump leads. I'm gonna try this once problem 2 is resolved.

The second problem is the one I created through my laziness when I shorted something out. After the short, the pump stopped running altogether, so I can't get back to testing the original failure because the bike won't start. At this point, I checked all the items the manual suggests once you've verified the pump is getting power, except for a faulty ECM:

If there is battery voltage. replace the fuel pump.
If there is no battery voltage, inspect the following:
- Main fuse 30A
- Sub fuse l0A
- Engine stop switch (page 19-19)
- Fuel cut relay (page 5-48)
- Engine stop relay (page 5-76)
- Bank angle sensor (page 5-751
- ECM (page 5-76)

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post #12 of 33 Old 05-21-2017, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnotichatt View Post
There's two different problems at hand, the first is the bike dying while riding, which I'm hoping I addressed by replacing the fuel filter (it's in the tank, inline after the fuel pump), and the fuel pressure regulator. With this issue, the bike started and idled, but sputtered and died (complete with flickering lights on the gauge cluster) once I got it going enough to shift into 2nd gear. If I pulled over and restarted it, it ran fine until I got up to 15-20 mph again. Rinse & repeat. That makes me think it is a fuel supply problem, but I'm hoping the fuel pressure regulator is the culprit, as the bike sat for a long time before I owned it. Altogether, I replaced the fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator, and a couple of fuel lines that looked aged.

I really like the idea of attaching a light to the fuel pump leads. I'm gonna try this once problem 2 is resolved.

The second problem is the one I created through my laziness when I shorted something out. After the short, the pump stopped running altogether, so I can't get back to testing the original failure because the bike won't start. At this point, I checked all the items the manual suggests once you've verified the pump is getting power, except for a faulty ECM:

If there is battery voltage. replace the fuel pump.
If there is no battery voltage, inspect the following:
- Main fuse 30A
- Sub fuse l0A
- Engine stop switch (page 19-19)
- Fuel cut relay (page 5-48)
- Engine stop relay (page 5-76)
- Bank angle sensor (page 5-751
- ECM (page 5-76)
There seems to be something I'm missing, you replace the fuel filter, FPR and hoses... why did you do this? It sounds like you bought a long term sitting project bike that didn't run.

So you got it running with the FPR, filter and hoses, but not running all the great?

If that's the case, I'd be concerned over the injectors being clogged up. I know some on cars have tiny filter on the tip of the injectors.

I think they send solvent thru them while on a switch that opens/closes them, This IIRC is used to clean them.

Have you run any solvents thru the system?

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post #13 of 33 Old 05-22-2017, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry, I didn't give the best backstory. No, it's not a project bike that didn't run. I just deduced that it sat for a long time because I bought it a year ago with ~4000 miles on it, so that's less than 500 miles per year. I put another 4000 on it last season, and had it out for a couple of weeks this season before it died. I replaced the FPR and filter because they are relatively cheap components, and possible sources of impeded fuel flow. The fuel supply issue is taking a back seat to my electrical problem currently though..

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post #14 of 33 Old 05-22-2017, 03:46 PM
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It's kinda hard to know if this is an electrical problem or a fuel delivery problem or if it's two different problems.

What you describe sounds like a fuel problem, but what you need to do is cause the problem and check everything from power supply to fuel delivery. I though it was cranking once it died but didn't start. If it cranks after it dies, do you have power to the ECU?

You could put a few simple test lights in certain spots and then ride the bike. One at the injector, one at the ECU, and ignition. This should tell you quite a bit.

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post #15 of 33 Old 05-22-2017, 09:11 PM
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Ignoring the running issues for the moment, let's take a stab at the no start issue. For the moment put aside the idea of replacing the ECM and look elsewhere.

Go here: https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...ems-14216.html post #8 for a pretty comprehensive fuel pump troubleshooting tree.

Logic must take precedence here, to wit:
Quote:
There was a plume of smoke some sounds of shorting.
A plume of smoke and noise invariably signals a wire badly overheating (DUH!!!), but also may point to the cause of the no start problem. If the ground wire got hot enough to melt the insulation in free air, it got hotter in the wiring harness, usually involving the wires not only in direct contact with it, but also anywhere near it. To check this cut away the tape wrapping the harness from the point where the tank ground wire enters it to where it exits near the frame grounding point on the Right side of the backbone. I'm betting you will find the melted wire with several adjacent wires also damaged to the point of breaking the connection or shorting to the fried ground wire. This could easily be the cause. Of course if you find no damage it may be the ECM, but better to eliminate other possibilities than shell out for a control unit only to find it did not cure the problem. Honda ECM's are pretty tough (unless you drill holes in them) and will survive quite a lot before crapping out.

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post #16 of 33 Old 05-23-2017, 07:19 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by robtharalson View Post
Ignoring the running issues for the moment, let's take a stab at the no start issue. For the moment put aside the idea of replacing the ECM and look elsewhere.

Go here: https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...ems-14216.html post #8 for a pretty comprehensive fuel pump troubleshooting tree.

Logic must take precedence here, to wit:

A plume of smoke and noise invariably signals a wire badly overheating (DUH!!!), but also may point to the cause of the no start problem. If the ground wire got hot enough to melt the insulation in free air, it got hotter in the wiring harness, usually involving the wires not only in direct contact with it, but also anywhere near it. To check this cut away the tape wrapping the harness from the point where the tank ground wire enters it to where it exits near the frame grounding point on the Right side of the backbone. I'm betting you will find the melted wire with several adjacent wires also damaged to the point of breaking the connection or shorting to the fried ground wire. This could easily be the cause. Of course if you find no damage it may be the ECM, but better to eliminate other possibilities than shell out for a control unit only to find it did not cure the problem. Honda ECM's are pretty tough (unless you drill holes in them) and will survive quite a lot before crapping out.

Rob
Thanks, Rob. I'll get to investigating the harness tonight. I wasn't sure how much of a licking the ECM could take, so that's encouraging. I had been thinking that the short would have stopped at the fuel pump ground once it touched the frame, but I guess that doesn't make sense. Judging by the damage to that wire, I'm sure you're right about damage elsewhere in the harness. It would be sweet if I could avoid shelling out for a new computer. I'll follow up with any findings.

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post #17 of 33 Old 05-23-2017, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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Per Rob's advice I pulled the tank and traced the ground (and other wires) back from the pump. Unfortunately, nothing looks damaged, which is a weird thing to write. Healthy wires here.

Next step is to start early on Saturday and work my way through Rob's post from '08 to try to source the problem.

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post #18 of 33 Old 05-24-2017, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypnotichatt View Post
Per Rob's advice I pulled the tank and traced the ground (and other wires) back from the pump. Unfortunately, nothing looks damaged, which is a weird thing to write. Healthy wires here.

Next step is to start early on Saturday and work my way through Rob's post from '08 to try to source the problem.
It might not be worth getting into at this point because I don't think it's as likely, but there's a thing called voltage drop test.

Basically you can end up for a false answer the way that most people test wires.



IIRC, this is a pretty clear example:


I personally would just setup $10 worth of simple test lights and run the bike then just look at the test lights.

Basically there's no reason you can't just leave them there or make up a little board with 5~10 lights connected to things and see which one goes out.

One that might be tricky would be the fuel pump, I've heard some alter the voltage to alter the flow...IDK if Honda does that or not, I'm sure someone know. If that's the case, just being off a bit can screw things up.

How hard would it be to remove the pump and filter just to check if there's some stuff in there? I had a filter filled with ultra fine rust from the tank because it wasn't stored properly.

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post #19 of 33 Old 05-24-2017, 10:25 AM Thread Starter
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It might not be worth getting into at this point because I don't think it's as likely, but there's a thing called voltage drop test.

Basically you can end up for a false answer the way that most people test wires.
Interesting, I didn't know about this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
I personally would just setup $10 worth of simple test lights and run the bike then just look at the test lights.
We can't do this because the fuel pump doesn't run. No pump = no running bike. This method will only help once the bike starts again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
How hard would it be to remove the pump and filter just to check if there's some stuff in there? I had a filter filled with ultra fine rust from the tank because it wasn't stored properly.
The filter is brand-spanking-new, so there's no point in checking. The fuel pump works - I tested it on the battery.

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post #20 of 33 Old 05-24-2017, 01:20 PM
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Interesting, I didn't know about this.




We can't do this because the fuel pump doesn't run. No pump = no running bike. This method will only help once the bike starts again.



The filter is brand-spanking-new, so there's no point in checking. The fuel pump works - I tested it on the battery.
You could be correct, however, it could be the case that the pump loses connection (either fully or partial) during certain conditions. That why you'd want to check the connection for both voltage and amps. I've had wires partially fried on the inside. You see the outside, that's why the voltage drop is important. I had it happen on a starter connection.

The filter WAS new. In addition to a tank that might not have been stored properly, there could be a flaw in the filter itself. I bought a carb that wasn't stored properly, the fuel turned into a gel and had to be scooped out.

I know oil filters that use a 1 way check valve... if that fails, it could block flow. That's not to say the fuel filter has a one way valve that failed, but to say that defects happen.

It could be that the ECU sees that the bike isn't responding properly, so it goes into safe mode where the fuel pump shuts off. This could be because the amp going to the fuel pump aren't producing the expected fuel pressure. The ECU could read this as a fuel leak and shut off the fuel pump.

A simple check would remove these things as a factor. Just as much as if you took a known good ECU or put your ECU on a known good bike and ran it. Removing factors even if it's just a slight chance, narrows things down.

Edit: I'm wondering if the ECU has a breaker type logic in it... it sends a voltage/amp to the fuel pump, doesn't get the proper feed back, shuts it down and waits to some kind of reset.

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post #21 of 33 Old 05-25-2017, 09:03 PM
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A long time ago, l was pretty sure that l roasted the ECU in the 919. I didn't bother with the "science fair stuff". I simply got a used ECU from s bike salvage place. Wasn't that big of a deal.

As far as l know, the old 919 is still running just fine.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

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post #22 of 33 Old 05-27-2017, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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A long time ago, l was pretty sure that l roasted the ECU in the 919. I didn't bother with the "science fair stuff". I simply got a used ECU from s bike salvage place. Wasn't that big of a deal.

As far as l know, the old 919 is still running just fine.

Good luck. Keep us posted.
A quick update while I'm grabbing a beer: I swapped the ECU with a healthy one from an '02, and the pump ran correctly when I turned the ignition. Feeling very encouraged! Heading back out to put the essentials back on, and then trying to fire it up.

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post #23 of 33 Old 05-27-2017, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Bike is back together and runs like a champ. Not sure what the cause of the intermittent stalling problem was, but that's gone as well. It goes without saying that the ECM was cooked in some manner when I shorted the bike, as it started right up with the replacement ECM.

For anyone with the intermittent stalling issue in the future, my guess is it was the fuel pressure regulator, which fails on 919's that have had a long sit at some point in their lives. In total, I replaced the FPR, spark plugs, fuel filter, air filter, and some fuel hoses that were drying out. Either one of those things fixed the problem, or there was a loose connection somewhere that was fixed during my tear-down and rebuilt.

Thanks for the help in this thread guys!
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post #24 of 33 Old 05-28-2017, 08:07 PM
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post #25 of 33 Old 05-29-2017, 12:55 AM
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Glad to see it all worked out. I wonder if we would all be better off with some surge protection/fuse or something to protect us from having that happen. Kinda surprised that Honda didn't have something there.

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post #26 of 33 Old 05-29-2017, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Glad to see it all worked out. I wonder if we would all be better off with some surge protection/fuse or something to protect us from having that happen. Kinda surprised that Honda didn't have something there.
Best bet is probably just to always take the battery out when doing repairs. Would have saved me a few hundred bucks anyway.

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post #27 of 33 Old 05-29-2017, 10:15 PM
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Well done Hypno. Awesome you sorted it out. I agree, take the battery out. I swapped my tank over the other day and I took the battery out all thanks to this thread. Don't want the magic white smoke to get out. So thanks Hypno for the lesson on "why the battery should be removed" Cheers mate.

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post #28 of 33 Old 05-30-2017, 01:32 PM
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Can you open the ECU and check for damage?

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post #29 of 33 Old 05-31-2017, 08:10 PM
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If l remember correctly, the ECU is just about bulletproof.

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post #30 of 33 Old 05-31-2017, 10:06 PM
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I'm still trying to figure out why an expensive ECU isn't protected by a fuse. I'd like to think that Honda would know better.

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post #31 of 33 Old 06-01-2017, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
I'm still trying to figure out why an expensive ECU isn't protected by a fuse. I'd like to think that Honda would know better.
It's protected by many fuses... where exactly would you propose adding a fuse that would stop current from flowing from a positive battery terminal to a metal fuel line when they touch?

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post #32 of 33 Old 06-02-2017, 02:18 AM
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It's protected by many fuses... where exactly would you propose adding a fuse that would stop current from flowing from a positive battery terminal to a metal fuel line when they touch?
I'm not sure what it would take to correct, I know that there are jumper cables that will tell you if you connect things wrong. I just removed the battery from one of my trucks that doesn't have clearly marked cables, crossed the cables, no damage to the computer.

This is out of my area, but I know it can be protected somehow if not by a fuse. I was under the assumption that there was too much amperage going into the ECU, why wouldn't one of the fuses address that?

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post #33 of 33 Old 06-05-2017, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlJay View Post
I'm not sure what it would take to correct, I know that there are jumper cables that will tell you if you connect things wrong. I just removed the battery from one of my trucks that doesn't have clearly marked cables, crossed the cables, no damage to the computer.

This is out of my area, but I know it can be protected somehow if not by a fuse. I was under the assumption that there was too much amperage going into the ECU, why wouldn't one of the fuses address that?
Most automotive level (and motorcycle and marine for that matter) are protected from backwards battery connection either through a fuse or internally circuitry, or both. The problem here is it was a direct short, from the +battery to a metal fitting. There's next to no way to predict a user driven short like this, and likely the only way to protect from any possible short would be some sort of internal self resetting fuse (if it was just a normal internal fuse then once it snapped the ECU is junk to most people anyways so it doesn't really help)... even then, you'd have to have one on just about every input that could possibly be shorted out, so it would be quite cost prohibitive and make board design and size requirements much more difficult.

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