Header Change That Preserves Mid-Range (and paging LDH) - Wrist Twisters
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post #1 of 49 Old 12-03-2017, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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Header Change That Preserves Mid-Range (and paging LDH)

I was reading through a few older threads as I'd like to make a change to my current exhaust, which is stock. I have no exhaust stink issues and am aware that there is nothing out there that is going to give me game-changing power gains, but I absolutely do want to reduce the bike's sprung weight and move it down low. So it seems the low mount exhaust option is the way to go.

I came across a thread where LDH basically said that the top-end gains that come from 900RR header swaps are not worth the trade-off in the mid-range that you lose. Or, you're sacrificing a small bit of the bike's essential character for even smaller gains in a place where you will rarely even notice them. (LDH please correct me if I misinterpreted). But how much of that loss in mid-range is due to the move from thin/long tubes of the 919 to relatively shorter and wider ones of the 900RR header or any other headers made for the 900RR for that matter?

I assume the answer is "all of it", and so based on that assumption I further assume that finding a way to make the 4-2-1 stock header work with a low-mount exhaust should give me the weight shift/reduction I want while not giving up the mid-range. Is that correct?

Now if THAT is correct, it just looks like a matter of cutting the upturn off the end of the collector and clocking it a few degrees to position the mid-pipe out and up right? Or getting rid of the turn entirely and looking at an underbelly shorty exhaust.....

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post #2 of 49 Old 12-03-2017, 08:36 PM
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Those little GP exhausts look so cool, probably noisy as hell!

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post #3 of 49 Old 12-03-2017, 08:41 PM
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just get yourself a pair of really light exhausts. It's easier and saves you a lot of headache.

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post #4 of 49 Old 12-04-2017, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PHOBMAN View Post
Those little GP exhausts look so cool, probably noisy as hell!
YES, that's one of my concerns. Doesn't look like there is a ton of length between the collector and the rear tire for a large muffler, so it'd have to be something stubby and all those look like they'll make ears bleed. Delkevic has a nice pair of 9" cans, one SS and one CF that I was eyeing that may be better since they're a bit fatter.

Pvster: Are you suggesting I find light exhausts that stick with the stock undertail routing or go low mount? I'm about to pull the trigger on a complete Delkevic system for the 96-99 900RR. All the stock 900RR headers on Ebay have been dented up rusted out crap @$150 for the last few days I've been looking. Those complete Delkevics are around $450 shipped. But I remain concerned about this business of losing midrange..

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post #5 of 49 Old 12-04-2017, 08:01 PM
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IF I was ever to do a single can side exhaust 919, I'd use the 919 header and have it recontoured after the collector section in the constant diameter section.
Because 900RR headers simply are not timed for the gas flow of a 919.

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post #6 of 49 Old 12-04-2017, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
IF I was ever to do a single can side exhaust 919, I'd use the 919 header and have it recontoured after the collector section in the constant diameter section.
Because 900RR headers simply are not timed for the gas flow of a 919.
By that, do you mean scavenging? Or is it something that the 900RR OEM headers cannot do but aftermarket ones do due to a different design?

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post #7 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 03:04 AM
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Could always go this way to reduce a bit of weight. A single undertail exhaust. Found one on ebay as an example.
Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/152746658365
Could probably make up a single link pipe. Copy angles from your stock Y pipe or modify your Stock Y, cut and shut.
Chuck on a light carbon can.
Half the weight of a twin can setup. Still got 919 headers and a unique look.
Just putting it out there.

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post #8 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 04:47 AM
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Here is a pic of a stubby single undertail pipe.
Also found a wrist twisters thread where someone had modified a 919 header/collector for low mount exhaust.
https://www.wristtwisters.com/forums/...ad.php?t=32439
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post #9 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 09:07 AM Thread Starter
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Islandboy: I've been thinking about the single undertail option as well, I absolutely agree about preserving the personality of the 919! I also did come across the awesome work that 2007Bruteforce did with that 1000RR setup, but I lack the skills and equipment for the necessary welding. However, I think I might be able to handle the single undertail route.

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post #10 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahung12 View Post
By that, do you mean scavenging? Or is it something that the 900RR OEM headers cannot do but aftermarket ones do due to a different design?
900RR headers are designed for a radically different (carb) inlet through to exhaust port exit design, cam timing, and resultant torque curve, and positioning of peak torque and power on the rev band.
The idea is to maximize, and control, gas flow through the entire system over a range of revs, throttle openings and engine loads.
(Scavenging generally refers to simple exhaust gas distraction, but the required overall gas flow and control of it is way more complex than just scavenging in isolation. It is a factor, though. Scavenging is much more of an issue with two strokes.)
The header design is key and matching component to all the aforementioned.
Hence why they are such a mismatch to the particulars of the 919.
As evidenced by different mapping being needed to get the best out of a 900RR header on a 919.

For a stock 919 engine, the factory header will be very hard to beat.
An aftermarket single outlet header could be designed to give a bit more in peak power, but at the sacrifice of some torque and torque stability in the lower revs.

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post #11 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 11:54 AM
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Been thinking some more about the single undertail option.
Would a link pipe from a honda 599 fit the 919 system? Maybe a modification to where it clamps on?You can buy separate from delkevic.
Also the delkevic Y link pipe for the 900 is interesting. It's all one piece, no separate link pipes. It will take any 50mm slip on. Would be easy to cut and shut one side.
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post #12 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 05:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mcromo44 View Post
900RR headers are designed for a radically different (carb) inlet through to exhaust port exit design, cam timing, and resultant torque curve, and positioning of peak torque and power on the rev band.
The idea is to maximize, and control, gas flow through the entire system over a range of revs, throttle openings and engine loads.
(Scavenging generally refers to simple exhaust gas distraction, but the required overall gas flow and control of it is way more complex than just scavenging in isolation. It is a factor, though. Scavenging is much more of an issue with two strokes.)
The header design is key and matching component to all the aforementioned.
Hence why they are such a mismatch to the particulars of the 919.
As evidenced by different mapping being needed to get the best out of a 900RR header on a 919.

For a stock 919 engine, the factory header will be very hard to beat.
An aftermarket single outlet header could be designed to give a bit more in peak power, but at the sacrifice of some torque and torque stability in the lower revs.
Interesting, thanks for the info. In your opinion, does tuning with a PC address the mismatch and make the 900RR well-suited for the 919 then? Or is the mismatch too severe to be completely fixed?

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post #13 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 05:39 PM
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Years ago, Two Brothers made a single sided CF can. I had one for a while. I doubt you'll be able to find one now days, tho. What do you think one stock muffler weigh? 9 pounds?

If you want to lose 6-7 pounds up high, get a lithium ion battery if you don't already have one. Toss the tools. Get a hollow F4I axle. Get rid of the curb feelers.

If you could get rid of 15 pounds, that would certainly be a good thing.

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post #14 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahung12 View Post
Interesting, thanks for the info. In your opinion, does tuning with a PC address the mismatch and make the 900RR well-suited for the 919 then? Or is the mismatch too severe to be completely fixed?
Yes, good corrective mapping, will smooth out a 900RR pipe on a 919 to a noticeable and beneficial degree.
But it can't completely correct everything.
Please keep in mind though, that a good number have done the 900RR conversion and been happy with the results.
My guess is that those driven to have a single exit low mount, regardless of their reasons, will be happy if the riding result is "good enough".

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post #15 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post

If you want to lose 6-7 pounds up high, get a lithium ion battery if you don't already have one. Toss the tools. Get a hollow F4I axle. Get rid of the curb feelers.

If you could get rid of 15 pounds, that would certainly be a good thing.
Very good point.
A pair of cans for the 919 header, a L I battery, hollow rear axle, and a 520 drive kit will take off over 15#, probably around 20.
For the low weight of a single aftermarket can, why sacrifice the 919 header IF the pursuit is just purely weight based.

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post #16 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper-x View Post
Years ago, Two Brothers made a single sided CF can. I had one for a while.
How did you like that pipe?
Any particular characteristics you remember?

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post #17 of 49 Old 12-05-2017, 06:23 PM
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Weight per PAIR
Stock 18lbs
Ti Sato 10lbs
Carbon Sato 8lbs

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post #18 of 49 Old 12-06-2017, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
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..Please keep in mind though, that a good number have done the 900RR conversion and been happy with the results... the riding result is "good enough".
Yep, put me in this camp. Happy to lose the weight, happy with the outcome. Don't know what the dyno might say, but real world everyday riding is just fine.

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post #19 of 49 Old 12-06-2017, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
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Yep, put me in this camp. Happy to lose the weight, happy with the outcome. Don't know what the dyno might say, but real world everyday riding is just fine.
+1...I could feel a little bit of loss (front wheel not as light), but well worth it.

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post #20 of 49 Old 12-06-2017, 05:32 PM
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From what I can remember, the Two Brothers muffler was very decent quality. If I remember correctly, it came with a SS rear brake line.

To be honest, the only bad thing about the TB was that it didn't have "the cool factor" that Erin, or Sato has.

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post #21 of 49 Old 12-06-2017, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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For simplicity and costs sake, I'm likely just going to go with some nice light undertail dual exhausts, like Delkevic. I poked around the bike a bit this afternoon, and realized the same reason I didn't cut off the hand controls nubs is the same reason I wouldn't want to cut up the stock exhaust, which is because I want to be able to return her to stock if I ever felt like it.

Thanks for the input folks.

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post #22 of 49 Old 12-06-2017, 06:13 PM
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The delkevic are well made and great sound great. They come in several styles. If you do decide to get some, try and get a set with a single Y link pipe. Its all stainless and replaces the stock Y pipe and links directly to both cans. All one piece and makes for a very solid fit.
Lately delkevic have started to use and supply two link pipes instead. You retain the stock Y pipe. Not as solid or free flowing, in my opinion. I would prefer the single Y link pipe.
Also the delkevic link pipe, regardless if it's a single or double, is a common 50mm exhaust mount diameter. So once you have your link pipes you can put a whole range of exhaust cans on.
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post #23 of 49 Old 12-06-2017, 06:37 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Islandboy View Post
The delkevic are well made and great sound great. They come in several styles. If you do decide to get some, try and get a set with a single Y link pipe. Its all stainless and replaces the stock Y pipe and links directly to both cans. All one piece and makes for a very solid fit.
Lately delkevic have started to use and supply two link pipes instead. You retain the stock Y pipe. Not as solid or free flowing, in my opinion. I would prefer the single Y link pipe.
Also the delkevic link pipe, regardless if it's a single or double, is a common 50mm exhaust mount diameter. So once you have your link pipes you can put a whole range of exhaust cans on.
Yup I spoke to a rep at Delkevic for a bit today. I specifically asked why they had setups that came with and without a y-pipe, and she said that the non-Y pipe ones are being phased out due to some fitment issues. FWIW they both cost the same, and it looks like Delkevic's Y-pipe should knock off a pound or so as compared to the stock so no brainer for me. No heat shield option but I see plenty of folks are running aftermarket pipes without heat shields, seems to be fine.

I think I'm going to go with their 9" oval muffler for max weight savings, but in SS because I'm not about to pay a $100 premium for another 1lb weight saving.
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post #24 of 49 Old 12-06-2017, 06:53 PM
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I had zero fitment issues with my single Y link pipe. Besides pipe can bend a little. I think it's cost of manufacturing. Definitely get the single Y link pipe if you can. Much lighter. Very solid.
I did my head in trying to pick between oval and round. I like em both.
I got oval. I mounted mine at an angle with the bottom edge right in. As if you where looking from behind. Looked cool.
But now I want round. I got some cheap round cans and they look great too. So I might get myself some round stainless delkevic's with the slash opening.
Whichever way you go post some pics of them all mounted up and a little review. Cheers.

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post #25 of 49 Old 12-06-2017, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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Actually going to hold off and see if they come through with any year end sale, as it looks like I just missed their Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale. I love writing reviews so I'll certainly throw one up here and maybe some sound clips llthough winter has just hit Chicago and hard, I don't have the right gear to be riding for any length of time in the 20* days that are coming up.

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post #26 of 49 Old 12-06-2017, 08:14 PM
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I have a Delkevic SS header on my 01 Interceptor. It was gorgeous when new. The heat discolored it some, as a lot of exhaust systems do. I got caught in the rain a couple of times, and it turned brown, in places, very quickly. Scotch Brite got it looking good again, but never nearly as nice as new. I've gotten into the habit of spraying WD-40 on the header, once it cools a bit. That helps a lot. Delkevic stainless is not nearly the quality of Honda stainless. But the Delkevic is still far better looking than the black/rusty mild steel that the Interceptor came with.
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post #27 of 49 Old 12-07-2017, 04:38 AM
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I'd love to see how much better I could make the 919 in terms of performance, but realistically it's not worth it. Ohlins suspension front and rear, Sato rearsets, lithium battery, full 900rr ti exhaust with the single can, lighter and more aggressive bars, carbon wheels... Slick tires... Makes me wonder what kind of times I could put on it. Then I realize that I just spent 10 grand in mods when I could have bought a literbike without a title for 3grand and been leagues faster.

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post #28 of 49 Old 12-07-2017, 05:12 AM
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You want a nice used 990 Super Duke. You just can't get yourself to admit it!

Just kidding


kind of.....
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post #29 of 49 Old 12-07-2017, 12:13 PM
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I'm interested in hanging a set of these black widow exhaust cans off my Delkevik link pipes. Black satin stainless, huge slash opening, 350mm long and 100mm in diameter. They look mean.
Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132091283028

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post #30 of 49 Old 12-07-2017, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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I'm interested in hanging a set of these black widow exhaust cans off my Delkevik link pipes. Black satin stainless, huge slash opening, 350mm long and 100mm in diameter. They look mean.
Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132091283028
I searched around regarding Black Widow. Sounds like their predecessor company (Sandy's Spares or something) wasn't that well-regarded in terms of quality, and that they're coming back from some sort of bankruptcy. I was checking out their 900RR headers and their complete exhaust systems for the 900RR.

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post #31 of 49 Old 12-08-2017, 01:12 AM
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The original 919. Surprisingly, it's pretty comfortable. I bought this one last fall. It has a little carburation glitch, that has been tough to pin down. I'm going to run a bunch of Sea Foam thru it. Maybe that will get it to 100%.
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post #32 of 49 Old 12-08-2017, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
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The original 919. Surprisingly, it's pretty comfortable. I bought this one last fall. It has a little carburation glitch, that has been tough to pin down. I'm going to run a bunch of Sea Foam thru it. Maybe that will get it to 100%.
That is a great looking machine.

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post #33 of 49 Old 12-08-2017, 05:36 PM
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Yeah, Honda used to make really cool stuff. Right now these old Hondas are pretty cheap. Everybody wants an adventure bike.

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post #34 of 49 Old 12-09-2017, 03:18 PM
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Black widow motorcycle exhaust seemed a bit flakey about a year ago when I first contacted them. All seems good now, got answers straight away and they have stock again. Most reviews online are good, except that bankruptcy stuff. Most reviews do say they can be loud.
I also like the Delkevic pipes in the same style.
Since I have the Delkevic link pipe I could go for either.
Pair Delkevic cans, $650, one year warranty. Pair BlackWidow cans $450, two year warranty. Also the BlackWidow come in a black satin stainless, nice.
I'll wait for the new year and the season madness to end. I'll keep an eye out for specials.

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post #35 of 49 Old 12-09-2017, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
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Pair Delkevic cans, $650, one year warranty.
Whooooah... that is USD? Here I'm looking at $326 for the two SS 9" cans. I think even their most expensive option for the 919 is not more than $525.

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post #36 of 49 Old 12-09-2017, 05:04 PM
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Yeah I live in Australia. I pay almost $2.00 a litre for fuel as well. Yay!

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post #37 of 49 Old 08-12-2018, 10:39 PM
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Hello guys, I have a 2002 919 and I just did the single sided exhaust mod while using the stock header. To make a long story short I am a mechanic and have access to pipe, a pipe bender and a welder, total cost was 48$ and 3 hours of work in the shop. I got an m4 slip on exhaust off ebay for 48$. I cut the header right on the furthest upward bend by the rear shock. Notched the pipe to get the right angle and turned the upward bend pipe around 35 degrees from it's original position. Welded it to the header and used a 1 7/8 od pipe to connect the header to the slip on. A few more welds and couple of bolts, mounted the slip on to the furthest rear bolt of the rear sets and done, solid as a rock and sounds amazing!!! I will add that I removed the inner baffle of the slip on because it had a raspy idle sound, may be to loud for some people but I think its loud enough for other people to hear me but not annoying while cruising. Any questions feel free to ask.

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post #38 of 49 Old 08-12-2018, 10:42 PM
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Pics of single side exhaust with stock header
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post #39 of 49 Old 08-12-2018, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
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Pics of single side exhaust with stock header
Nice job, that very similar to what I want to do, only I want s but shorter yet.

Did you use stainless or aluminzed pipe? Was it hard to weld?

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post #40 of 49 Old 08-12-2018, 11:19 PM
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I used just regular automotive exhaust pipe I had laying around the shop and cleaned it up with a wire brush on a tabletop grinding wheel

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